Dutch Schultz Catskill Treasure

[GaBnn3]

I found the original cache site after a 3 year, part time, search. The large tree now growing out of the hole suggests it was recovered decades ago. My theory is that Shapiro recovered it, with the aid of the map, after Schultz was killed. The cache site exactly matches the known info on the map. One of the trees that marked the burial site, had the carving "1934" in it, which is the year the iron box was buried.

[Bergie]

Hey, that's cool even finding the site. I expect many of these well known caches people are searching for have already been found and they are wasting their time. Where do you live? I live near the Catskills and search with True_Metal, who also lives in the Hudson Valley.

[GaBnn3]

I live in W. Mass. It took me a couple of hours each way everytime I went out there. So, I only went there about 7 or 8 times. The visits helped me excluded some of the local theories on the treasure. But, I actually spotted the area of interest on a topo map, while I was home. I think we got shortchanged here in the Northeast. There aren't a lot of treasures up this way. Maybe we can share a search sometime, since you live up this way too.

[alleykid]

GaBnnthree,   My  first search for the 7.4 was in 1962.Since then I have warn out One wife ,7 partners,4 dogs ,12 metal detectors and 4 automobiles. I have consulted with people that claimed to have known "Arther"', Seers of all types and have used a lot of strange  locating devices to no avail.
I have even produced a audio tape and annotated map because I gathered so much information.

Just a tip--- If holes were any indication of the box being found, found there are a hundred holes with and with out trees in the area . there are also two different areas (about 10 Miles apart) that two factions of hunters promote as the area of the hiding place . Also some people believe that he was shot on the same day he buried the box.        My best of luck to you and if you run into a tall ugly guy around Phoenicia,that will be me so don't shoot,alleykid

[GaBnn3]

Alleykid,
  I understand how hard it is to give up on a search. No one was more obsessed than me. Now all I have is a story of a hole in the ground. But, it's not just the hole that has convinced me. It's the carving on the tree, or the fact that the location exactly matched the known info on the map, but, more importantly, it's where he should have buried it. If it makes you feel good to keep looking, then keep looking. But, I know in my heart that is was recovered long ago. There will always be some doubt for those who choose to keep looking. But, I try to be realistic because some day I really want to find the big one, and don't want to waste my time. I created maps of my own during the search. I'd be happy to e-mail you copies. I have no secrets about that search now. When you visit the spot, you will kick yourself in the butt for not looking there yourself. Too bad about your wife. TH'ers are special people who believe in dreams. If you want those maps e-mal me at GaBnn3@aol.com.

[GaBnn3]

Dear Fellow TH'ers:
? ? ?I returned to the spot to view it this weekend in preparation for a TV show about the Schultz treasure. I was disappointed to see the bark peeled off the tree with the carving. I assume that when someone approaches me through this site, that they are the quality of individual that I have come to expect here, and feel safe sending the maps. Those who don't have a code of ethics, and have my maps, please be respectful as this is a bit of history, and physical evidence of the unique behavior of one of the nations most powerful gansters. I, at least for the time being, will refrain from sending any more maps. I know you understand. I tried to post a pic of the carving, with this message, for all to see, but the file size is too big. If anyone wants a pic of the carving, I'd be happy to send it, but the spot should be preserved. Thanks.

GB

[Floater]

GaBNN I wouldn't be surprised to see that thing on Ebay if someone did get your map and then try to sell the carving. It is a shame even the Fact he was a gangster it is no reason for people to deface the area or souvenir hunt it for the last remaining clue. It is to bad but please keep us posted on the show and when it might aire. If you Email me the Pic I can reduce it and Post it for you . I don't need any other info .Thanks again for a great story and congrats on your search. HH

M Email is   co2boo@earthlink.net

[Floater]

Gabnn Here is what you sent. I will e-mail you a copy as well. Please tell us what we are looking at here.Thanks .HH

[GaBnn3]

The map, drawn by Schultz' bodyguard and entrusted to his buddy, Marty, as "insurance", was reported to have an X drawn on it. Consequently, everyone expected to see an X in real life. Think about that. This site is in a pine grove, between the Esopus Creek and Rt 28, in an area that would not have been disturbed for the length of time Schultz thought he would be in prison. In fact, except for the excavation of the box, the area has not been disturbed. A landmark makes this location easily found, even by a city boy, so a map wouldn't be necessary. The burial hole is equidistant between two pines, so the box could easily be recovered. The southernmost pine, now fallen, was marked with the carving shown above. In spite of the aging of the wood, the hand carving "1934" is still visible. Schultz was indicted in Jan '33 and went on the run, until he surrendered in Nov '34. Since my last visit, someone peeled the bark off this tree. Here my son holds the hanging bark against the trunk, as I attempted to make it appear more as I first found it. This carving was probably made by Schultz, himself, while Lulu dug the hole. Schulz was found not guilty, much to everyone's surprize, but he found himself faced with further charges. So, it is unlikely he recovered the box, until his fate could be determined. The box was to be his salvation, while incarcerated. Schultz refused to comply with the syndicate, and was killed before the resolution of the additional charges. A rival, Shapiro, learned of the map, through a mutual female acquaintance, and, shortly after Schultz was shot, obtained the map during a botched hit on Marty. He then claimed that he couldn't understand the map, and gave up after a couple of tries. However, there is a prominent feature, not mentioned above that makes this location easily located. Though not mentioned in the written accounts on the map, it probably was, in fact, on the map. Therefore, I conclude that Shapiro, with the aid of the map, easily obtained the box, getting, not only, a piece of Schultz' former territory, but his personal fortune, as well. He would not have admitted obtaining it, since the gov't was nailing gangsters for criminal tax violations, and he didn't want to share with the others who took over Schultz former territory. The Liberty bonds, known to have been in the box, were undoubtedly destroyed so they couldn't be traced. As for the $1000 bills, diamonds, $20 gold coins, and other valuables they were very liquid, readily accepted in commerce, and could have provided for some lucky TH'er very well.

[Floater]

Thanks GaBnn3. Great Story and it appears the mystery is solved. I think your explanation is probably accurate and given the times someone is or was living a good life off of Dutch. HH

[Amona]

GaBnn3 said

 

I found the original cache site after a 3 year, part time, search. The large tree now growing out of the hole suggests it was recovered decades ago. My theory is that Shapiro recovered it, with the aid of the map, after Schultz was killed. The cache site exactly matches the known info on the map. One of the trees that marked the burial site, had the carving "1934" in it, which is the year the iron box was buried.

 The fact you found a 'big' hole on that area, it doesn't means that somebody found the cache, the only accurate way that you can use to be 100% sure is the use of a 'Radar'(I got one) in order you can see with your eyes 'what's going on'.

YOU SAID "MY THEORY IS THAT MR. SHAPIRO RECOVERED IT",....you said it all, "THEORY", that's means you're not 100% sure

I have a radar that I can use over there.If you're interested to coordinate with me just let me know sending me a PM.

Thanks

Amona

[GaBnn3]

Thanks for the offer. But, I'm not telling anyone else where it is. The theory, you refer to, is the supposed set of facts that explain the absence of the box. Regardless of the explanation, it is still gone. As for the radar, the box was not intended to require radar in order to recover it. The only technology required would be a shovel.

[Amona]

Ok GaBnn3, If you insist to live the 1920's when the people used 'pick & shovel' to find a cache is you problem, I live 'today' 2005
using the today's technology in order to save time and 'maybe' don't go to the jail.

Good luck buddy!!

Amona

[ctalmadg]

What intrigues me is the supposed tree carving is said to be 70+ years old..  I'm curious what type of pine tree this is and what the age of the tree is? Once we know this then we can ask ourselves how big was the tree in 1934? And how 70 years would have affected the carving? I have seen carvings on trees with a age of 20-30 years and these are VERY distorted. This tree carving just has me asking a lot of questions...

The map, drawn by Schultz' bodyguard and entrusted to his buddy, Marty, as "insurance", was reported to have an X drawn on it. Consequently, everyone expected to see an X in real life. Think about that. This site is in a pine grove, between the Esopus Creek and Rt 28, in an area that would not have been disturbed for the length of time Schultz thought he would be in prison. In fact, except for the excavation of the box, the area has not been disturbed. A landmark makes this location easily found, even by a city boy, so a map wouldn't be necessary. The burial hole is equidistant between two pines, so the box could easily be recovered. The southernmost pine, now fallen, was marked with the carving shown above. In spite of the aging of the wood, the hand carving "1934" is still visible. Schultz was indicted in Jan '33 and went on the run, until he surrendered in Nov '34. Since my last visit, someone peeled the bark off this tree. Here my son holds the hanging bark against the trunk, as I attempted to make it appear more as I first found it. This carving was probably made by Schultz, himself, while Lulu dug the hole. Schulz was found not guilty, much to everyone's surprize, but he found himself faced with further charges. So, it is unlikely he recovered the box, until his fate could be determined. The box was to be his salvation, while incarcerated. Schultz refused to comply with the syndicate, and was killed. A rival learned of the map, and shortly after Schultz was shot, obtained the map during a botched hit on Marty. He then claimed that he couldn't understand the map, and gave up after a couple of tries. However, there is a feature, not mentioned above that makes this location easily located. Though not mentioned in the accounts on the map, it probably was, in fact, on the map. Therefore, I conclude that the rival, with the aid of the map, easily obtained the box, getting, not only, a piece of Schultz' former territory, but his personal fortune, as well. He would not have admitted obtaining it, since the gov't was nailing gangsters for criminal tax violations. The Liberty bonds, in the box, were undoubtedly destroyed so they couldn't be traced. As for the $1000 bills, diamonds, and $20 gold coins, they were very liquid, readily accepted in commerce, and could have provided for some lucky TH'er very well.

[GaBnn3]

For those interested in the possible TV episode I referred to, be advised that "A Current Affair" has not followed up with the story, in spite of apparent interest at first. I may have spoiled their intended plot with the above info, which I posted following contact with them. I suspect that they wanted a put forth a story of continuing interest, not a closed book. As for the tree carving, I found what I found and can't add more. Anyone with doubts, it's beautiful country and a walk through the woods is never wasted time.

[SomeGuy]

it's beautiful country and a walk through the woods is never wasted time.

So PLEASE meet Amona in a neutral place, like a Denny's parking lot, and make ABSOLUTELY CERTAIN it's not still there, and let us know!

[SWR]

I am a little confused with the 1934 carving in the tree as well. Was the carving done when the tree was vertical and alive 70 years ago, or after it toppled over?  I have to agree with ctalmadg?the carving is questionable.

[GaBnn3]

I posted the answer to a long-standing mystery for the benefit of others who may have sought out this treasure. The carving is provided as evidence in support of my theory. Doubters have interpreted this evidence as somehow being confusing. The specific tactic used by them to portray confusion, is to focus solely on the photo, without considering the other information I shared about the site. The reason for this is simple. They have not been there. Take note that those, with whom I shared my maps, and been to the site, have not posted any doubts. This makes the critics.....what? The tendency to dwell on excessive detail is a result of the desparate desire to create information where none exists. In my search, I was careful to temper my desparation with common sense. As a result, I found what I found. Type of pine tree, how may rings on the trunk, etc; all questions that Schultz would not have been able to answer himself, and, therefore, were not needed to find this treasure spot. Considering all that I said about this spot, it is the perfect spot to cache a treasure. The challenge, then, is for the doubters to, first, find it, then dispute the entire site. But, you will have to be at least as sharp as Dutch and I to find it. Good luck!

[SWR]

There are several different camps, with different beliefs as what Dutch Schultz did with his ill-gotten gains. I favor the camp that believes Dutch followed Al Capone?s lead, like many other gangsters of that day, and put his money into a Swiss bank account. Some camps believe Dutch stashed his dough closer to home, the 100 mile trip into the Catskills seemed like a long haul. Some camps even believe the iron box washed into the Esopus Creek after a flood.

There have been people digging up in the Catskills for years, some even going to the extremes of using a backhoe, and leaving enormous holes throughout the mountains. It has been known, for years, that Treasure Hunters have carved X?s in numerous trees to keep the competition in check. You have presented us with a picture of a fallen tree, with a carving that could have been done in 1998, or even 2001. It defiantly was not carved in 1934, as the growth would have distorted the carvings after several years.

I think the book remains open, until there is significant proof presented.

[GaBnn3]

I have to chuckle at myself. I let some critics get my goat. But, when you believe in yourself, enthusiasm is normal. No one appreciates this forum more than me, and I've never seen anyone get out of hand. Since, no one knows me here, some may visialize an incompetent oaf, wandering through the woods while looking at the sky, who accidentally tripped over the log and fell in the hole, only to raise his head and see the carving. There was the suggestion that I may have found the site, but been too goofy to thorougly search it, and be absolutely certain it isn't there. You're entitled to whatever image you conger up. However, as to whether or not it was stashed in the Phoenicia area, let me point out that there were eight witnesses, at the Bridgeport, CT headquarters who witnesses Schultz and Lulu pack the box, then load it into the Packard and head toward Phoenicia. Also, Schultz, while in a feverish delirium, on his death bed, free from all conscious motivations, referred to his treasure being in the Phoenicia area. Then there was the map showing the Phoenicia area, which was of sufficient import to entice a rival to hit a Schultz lieutenant in order to obtain it. Those that cling to the other theories must deliberately deny these points, and are simply engaging in flights of fancy, such as the Swiss bank theory, no matter how nice they may sound. For a treasure site that the owner wanted to keep secret, there was an abundance of information on this one. I wanted to find it, not engage in theoretical discussion, so I stuck to the evidence. There is specifically no evidence to support the other theories. I doubt I'll ever find a treasure preceeded by so much info. However, the usefulness of that info was limited. It described the spot, vaguely, but, not how to get there. Trying to find the site, based on the description of it, was an impossible task, due to the incredible vastness of the Catskill woods. But, it would be useful in confirming a suspected area. So, I put the info on the back burner, and created my own psychological profile of Schultz, the pressure he was under (he was human too), and his motivations. Phoenicia was an area he was familiar with, away from the danger and competition of the city, where he had fond memories that he took comfort in. The treasure was to give him comfort while in prison. Further, I concluded, he was likely to have stashed it where it was easy to get to. Yes, easy, as befitting one who chose the easy road in life. So, I searched for a spot I would have wanted, if I was in his shoes. I found such a spot, and, lo and behold, it matched everything. In fact, Schultz was (at the time) able to drive his car within 25 yards of the hole. It was, after all, a heavy box. The year carved into the tree is most compelling evidence, since that was the year he turned himself in to authorities, following his 18 month hiatus. The weathering of the wood plainly show it was made decades ago, clearly not a recent creation. Anyone who would pretend to have an understanding of the dynamics of wood carvings over time, that contradicts this compelling evidence, has issues outside my expertice. However, the marker is not as important as the location. It doesn't matter if it was marked with a date, an "X", or a pile of rocks. And, don't forget, he needed a spot that would remain undisturbed. This spot has it all. A cursory look at the other theories show them to be empty vacuums, without any evidence whatever. As for the supposition that it may have washed into the Ashokan Reservoir, there are among us those who don't understand human communication skills. This location is definately along the banks of the Esopus, as the map indicated. Anyone who thought that meant that a clever gangster like Schultz placed a metal box in a creek bed that overflows every Spring is simply an idiot. So, one must be careful what camp one places oneself in. As for proof, it doesn't get any clearer than this, when the treasure is gone. This was simply how Schultz did it. That's all folks.

[Floater]

I have to chuckle at myself. I let some critics get my goat. But, when you believe in yourself, enthusiasm is normal. No one appreciates this forum more than me, and I've never seen anyone get out of hand.

Well GaBnn3 I appreciate your patience and I almost feel like a moderator on this thread. I do believe you have presented the Evidence that you are willing to post on line and since you did give this info to some others privately that contained more info only to find the site you found vandalised I don't blame you for not divulging more here. I guess this is the nature of the Treasure Hunter to find and get all the clues and then exhaust them until they pan out or don't. It is too bad some people you placed your trust in would go to the lengths they have to discredit you when in fact they all seem to know the theory's of where the treasure might be. Why don't they go and find it themselves or if they are here at least make as generous a contribution to this thread and discuss there own ideas and research. SWR is the only one I have seen at least take the time to add some of the other theory's to the subject and to where the money could have gone. If any one else has some info then please bring it forward so it can be discussed. I guess the point is don't criticize the statements here unless you have proof that they are wrong. Disagreeing with the whole notion is fine but to challenge the credible evidence here without your own evidence to the Contrary is a little misguided. Thanks again G. Great subject and as always a good read. HH

[SASQUASH]

I have Sean tress that have been cut down in 1890's the markings are still there so I can see how this 1930's markings could still be read. Hay floater you would make a great Moderator been a few sense we have swapped post's.  SAS <><

[SWR]

SAS?the question would be, how many years after the carving was done before the tree was felled. If the tree was carved in the 1880s, and felled in the 1890s, it would be highly feasible the carving would still be readable. In addition, we are talking about a Pine tree, they do tend to grow fast.

HH, Jim

[GaBnn3]

One thing I came to believe after engaging in this hunt, is that delving into excessive detail is a morass that can suck you in, and consume one's otherwise useful time. In fact, I came to believe that such side trips in one's research can be the mark of the unsuccessful treasure hunter, who becomes an expert on irrelevant detail. For this reason, I was careful not to turn my search into a thesis on the flora and fauna of the Catskill woods. I tried to think like Dutch, who hadn't a clue on such matters. However, I do recall, in the distant past of high school earth science, that trees grow from the tip, which means to me, that any trauma to the lower trunk, would not be significantly affected by the further growth of the tree. But, here we are talking about a tree, tunnel vision.

[ctalmadg]

I hope you find your treasure!  I was clearly adding my "2 cents" as to the carving (Actually my wife, who is a NYS ECON Officer..made the comment based on her experiences in the field)..The last thing from our mind was trying to "discredit" you.  Good Luck in your endeavor.

One thing I came to believe after engaging in this hunt, is that delving into excessive detail is a morass that can suck you in, and consume one's otherwise useful time. In fact, I came to believe that such side trips in one's research can be the mark of the unsuccessful treasure hunter, who becomes an expert on irrelevant detail. For this reason, I was careful not to turn my search into a thesis on the flora and fauna of the Catskill woods. I tried to think like Dutch, who hadn't a clue on such matters. However, I do recall, in the distant past of high school earth science, that trees grow from the tip, which means to me, that any trauma to the lower trunk, would not be significantly affected by the further growth of the tree. But, here we are talking about a tree, tunnel vision.

[GaBnn3]

Thank you for your interest. It was my intent to share the answer I believe I have, to this enduring mystery, with the treasure hunting community. My enthusiasm, now, was, last year, intense disappointment. Sharing my experience with others is therapy for me to recover from that disappointment. I will give you a clue to share with your wife. As law abiding TH'ers, we obtained our DEP permits for this search. Schultz wanted to be sure his treasure was safe for the time he thought he would be in prison. Look on a map. You can't miss it.

[bobinsd]

Question...if the tree was alive in 1934, why would someone carve "1934" vertically as shown?   If the tree had fallen, why would he carve into a dead tree that might soon disintegrate?

[GaBnn3]

Good question. Though, if anyone thinks they have come up with a new one that I haven't already considered, they're mistaken. Since I started this thread, and put forth my theory, I feel obligated to respond. That's okay, since my theory is complete, though I'm getting a little testy on this tree subject. Can anyone tell? Anybody can theorize for themselves why it is like it is. This is just the way I found it. In contrast to the recently uncovered wood, the carving is obviously aged and weathered. How anyone could suggest that the carving was made after the tree had fallen is beyond the realm of reality. It just happened to fall the way it did. During my first visit, the tree was wet, and the carving was not readily visible. Also, I believe there has been some distortion due to the growth of the tree. The numbers made with straight lines are significantly deeper than on the "3". Take note of the little notch on the top of the number "1". It goes in the opposite direction. I attribute this to the fact that it was carved while the tree was in the vertical. To have been carved in the horizontal direction, the numbers would either have been real tiny, or go around the curvature of the tree. Notice the area was carved flat, before the numbers were carved on it, to create a smoother surface. I suppose he wanted it large enough to be able to see it, years later, when he got out of prison. Further, the carving faced the direction of approach. Will anyone else with questions on this carving kindly qualify themselves with a statement on their tree carving experience. I've never done one. Thanks.
   By the way, I'm always open to intelligent discussion, and will respond to credible TH'ers.

[JT]

 I can't say that you aren't in the right spot, but I can say that tree has nothing to do with it. Pines grow fast. When they die and fall, they also lose bark fast.

 Looking at the thickness of the tree, the bark, and the carving, it's a safe bet that not only was the date not carved in the tree in 1934, but the tree didn't even exist then. If it was old enough to be used as a marker in 1934, then its age now would be in the neighborhood of 75 years old, because it had to be big enough to carve the date on. That looks to be about a 20 to 30 year old tree. If it had fallen in the 60's or 70's at that age the bark would be gone by now. That pretty much rules it out.

[GaBnn3]

For those considering a search, I stand by my find, and reassert it's authenticity.

[JT]

GaBnn3, you may stand by your "find", and you may reassert it's authenticity, but basically, you're asserting you found a....hole. An empty one, at that.

 Research is key to finding and understanding. However, the research must be complete. Looking at the size of that tree, it would not have existed in 1934. Plain and simple. The size of the tree should tell you that, and if it doesn't, the fact it still has bark on it helps shoot down your theory.

 Don't believe me? Don't sit here and argue...do the research. Go out tomorrow, and cut down a similar sized pine tree.Come back this time next year, take a look at the fallen tree, and see if the bark is still on as solid as what's in the picture. Repeat yearly. Report back when the bark is sloughing off.

 It doesn't matter if the tree has "1934", "X marks the spot", or "Dig here for Dutch's Dollars" marked on it. It's bogus. Someone is having fun at your expense. In fact, they probably read this board, and are rolling on the floor laughing because you can't connect the dots.

 If you really and truly believe that you found the correct empty hole, then you need to find a way to prove it. If not, then all you have is....an empty hole. 

[brhorn]

Hi Guys ,

  This is the first time I have ever written anything  on the TN site , despite reading about stuff on here for quite a while now.

Making a statement as to what I have known about this treasure , after spending numerous trips there in the Phoenicia , NY for
 about 13 years now :

  1.  Much of the story appears to have been created , as that Kropmier was alive into the 1960's , at least. He was arrested in the 60's for stealing someone's welfare check and was working as a retail employee , so we can all rest assured that he did not get the Dutchman's Trove.
 
  2.  From down in the Esopus Creek valley , I can not see how anyone but the Jolly Green Giant could see both Mt. Temper and Panther Mt. from the same vantage point , if south of the Phonecia area , as that Panther Mt. is quite some distance to the West of such .

  3.  The weight of the alleged steel box with all of that stuff would be extremely difficult to move , even for two strong men ; in addendum , automobiles of that time , even luxury ones , did not have a tremendous amount of horsepower ; ergo , how much could be carried on a trip up there , along with two men in the vehicle ?

  4.  In April , in Upstate New York , which is usually still colder than a well-digger's fanny , that ground would still be hard as can be and certainly not be easy diggin's to bury much of anything , unless a very early thaw was realized. I have been born , raised and still live in Upstate New York ( love to get out and go to the warm Southwest in the Winter , though ) and it has always been as such .

  5.  The area was frequented by bootlegger's and mobsters for many years , and numerous treasures are probably buried in the region ; ergo, any hole found that appeared to have , at one time or another , housed a horde of treasure , could also easily had been some other treasure. 

  Well, I guess that's it for me on this one , as that , despite I have enjoyed looking for it , and I love the Catskills , I have other stuff to look for - stuff that is probably much easier and within the length of my cable tow .  The area there is getting all bought up , and almost all of the streams of any size and surrounding areas are being bought up by NYC for their water supply , and are heavily policed by their own security force : you can't even get out of the car there anymore , except to go for a beer or spend money elsewhere in some shop.  Permission is tough due to distrust and  due to that the area homes are frequently seasonal.

   Good Luck and I hope someone deserving finds it , if it is still out there.

 

[GaBnn3]

 A local author, who wrote on this subject, told me he occasionally heard from some  who claim to know where the treasure is, but who never say where, and never find a treasure. You're one more of that variety, and there's plenty out there. I'll be looking for that picture. Brhorn, you raise one of the same questions I did about the April time frame. I'm from the northeast and understand what a Catskill winter can hold. However, I did not pursue research on a possible early Spring that year, because it did not affect the other known facts. That is the one point in Schurmacher's account, which you obviously have read, that I could not match, though I have reconciled it. Schurmacher wrote his account decades after the actual event. The recollections of those who placed it in around April were probably wrong. Upon finding the site, it no longer was of consequence, except to those whose have no posts of their own, and need to steal someone else's story. This being the case, Schurmacher's account was right on. It is the authoritative source for this story. But, you now have the ending also, thanks to me.

[JT]

 Well, Einstein, congratulations. You are the proud discoverer of...a hole. An empty one, at that. It's too bad that "Current Affair" couldn't do your tv special. They could have drawn tens of viewers to watch them film...a hole.

 Hey, Geraldo did that special years ago on Capone's secret room. Maybe you can get him to do a three hour special on...your hole.

 I know where some empty holes are. In fact, if you want, I'll dig some extra ones. You can tell people they contained KGC treasure, King Solomon's treasure, the Holy Grail, Blackbeards treasure, or Noah's Ark. I'll give you full credit.

 Your picture of the tree totally shoots down your theory. The fact that someone scraped bark and exposed relatively fresh wood on a tree that would have to be 75 or 80 years old, but has the size of one that is maybe 20 or 30 years old at the most, proves you wrong. Hardwoods can keep bark on them long after dying. Pines don't. For that tree to be genuine, it would have had to have died in the 1960's. You would not be able to scrape bark to get to fresh wood. Commonsense goes a long ways.

 Try searching for Bigfoot, leprechuans, or little green men from Mars. You'll have better luck finding them than you will convincing people the latrine site you found used to hold treasure.

 

[GaBnn3]

brhorn, If you're still interested here is more. My lunch break was too short to finish my response yesterday. You are quite correct that the story has been diluted. I assumed you have the Schurmacher account of this story, since you made reference to the April time frame. However, upon reviewing, Conway's account mentions April also. If you have Conway's book, check the bibliography. It lists the Schurmacher account as reference. Upon dissecting Conway's account, you would find that it is, to oversimiplify, Schurmacher's account, plus local rumors. After the treasure story became publicized in late 1934, locals began to recall chance encounters with Dutch, that they then attached significance to, convincing themselves that it was connected to the treasure story. Then add one psychic for good measure, and you have Conway's account, not to criticize his work. He was provided the info, so what else could he do but write it up. The addition of the local rumors, plus the psychic, is how a factual account gets demoted to the realm of legend. Research is not simply the discovery of unknown info, but can very well be, as in this case, sifting through the irrelevant info. If you think that Schultz was the type to have let locals have a clue where he hid his personal fortune, that he intended to rely on for the future, you have misjudged him. The locals may have had an audience, as they told their tales, and maybe got a few free drinks at the local tavern, but you can be sure their stories were worth nothing more. The proof is in the fact that no local ever found it. You can write off the psychic also. If you take Conway's book and winnow out the chaff, you are left with the Schurmacher account. So, if you want to follow up with this, you need the Schurmacher account. Take this post for example, I reported my discovery, which coincided with all known facts, in the exact kind of spot Schultz would have looked for, and found the carving he used to mark his spot, which I posted. As an object lesson, look what happened here. Then, as the locals did with the Schultz story, along comes a couple , who have never been there, and attempt to debunk my findings, insulting me both personally and as a TH'er. If you appreciate the result of careful, methodical research, here it is.   I'm stubborn but not pig-headed. I've simply been there. The tree was the marker, carved by Schultz' own hand, and I've provided the info to my peers, who, I hope, appreciate it, even if they don't accept it.

[GaBnn3]

As there are few treasures here in the northeast, there are undoubtedly many who would still seek this fortune. I started this thread for them. There is no way to prove that a gangster, who intended to keep it secret, recovered this treasure. In spite of what is posted above, I have continued to provide my maps to thoughtful, intelligent people, who convince me that they will share the responsibility of protecting this site. Some vicious clowns have pretended to read trees, and concocted an elaborate conspiracy theory, using my very own pic. However, I believe the moderator has toned down their static, at least I hope so. Perhaps, in the subconscious minds of some, they resent to notion that certain treasures are no longer there waiting for them. Who knows? Though, I got a little testy, I've tried to be modest and informative. However, let me put modesty aside. I am the only one to have solved this puzzle, and am proud of it. brhorn, before your next trip to Phoenicia, PM me. I still go up there once in a while. If you want to see for yourself perhaps I can arrange it. There is one more tidbit of info that may be available at a local business. My final trip up there will be to look for that, and we could  get a pizza and beer at the same time. The info on the map indicated that near the turnoff, from Rt 28, there is a structure that Lulu labeled as "Lodging for Hunters and Fishermen". That business still stands, and is open for business. The last detail will be to approach them and see if they found any such sign on the premises, when they bought it.

[tvanwho]

Can somebody please post the MAP of this treasure site? I'd like to see if my map dowsed location was on the money or not?
Thanks-

Tom,in Illinois

[GaBnn3]

 Tom, e-mail me at my web address. The maps are my own, I created them during my search, and, after finding the spot, the maps now show right where it was. Dowsing is somewhat mysterious to me. With the treasure gone, you still believe you can find where it was? There's a significant landmark, which is probably very obvious to a student of these posts, who has done background research. Let me know if you hit it, and what town it's in. We can talk about the maps.

[ThePete]

 Nice story on the treasure location. Thanks for posting it.

[GaBnn3]

You're quite welcome Zumbro. I was getting worried that nobody was reading this.

[ThePete]

You're quite welcome Zumbro. I was getting worried that nobody was reading this.

I use to be the rudest one here when i felt like it.  But the moderators took me in back of the wood shed with a switch and i straightened right up.  Best to listen to them.   

[JT]

Some vicious clowns have pretended to read trees, and concocted an elaborate conspiracy theory, using my very own pic.

 I assume you're including me in this description, and if so, it's an insult to clowns everywhere.

 Personally, I don't give a rip whether you found the supposed treasure or not. I'm not looking for it, nor will I ever be looking for it, so there is no basis for "an elaborate conspiracy theory".

 When it comes to looking for treasure, or anything valuable, very few people actually do the research, and find what they are looking for. There are far more people out there trying to steal it from the people that found it, or are trying to scam money out of gullible suckers in the belief that they will suddenly be rich.

 I don't know if you fall into any of the above categories, but when someone posts a picture of a 20 or 30 year old tree that has alledgedly been inscribed with a date 70 years ago, it sounds off the bull#### alarm in my brain. It's a little different with you, because you don't claim to know where treasure is....you just seem to be using an awfully excessive amount of energy to want people to believe you found an empty hole where "something" may or may not have been. In essence, my gut hunch tells me you're up to something. My gut hunches don't miss very often.

 People are free to have their own opinions. In your opinion, your empty hole used to hold something valuable. To back up youir opinion, you present evidence to support your claim.

 My opinion, your evidence is flawed at best, bogus at worst. Your picture shows a tree too small to be that old, and the fact that the bark is intact and fresh wood is under it shoots down the chance of it being dead for a couple of decades.

 If your evidence is flawed, then don't feel bad, because many people have relied on bad evidence to try and prove something.

 If your evidence is bogus, then the saying "there's a sucker born every minute" applies.

 I've seen too many people present bogus info in an attempt to scam innocent, gullible people out of money. Some con artists use proof of the "possibility" of finding something to establish credibility to reel in starry-eyed investors.

 I hope you're just relying on flawed info.

 

 

[GaBnn3]

Until such time as someone else finds that concusive proof, they claim I missed, I'm going to rightfully consider myself the resident expert on the Schultz cache. It would be a much more effective technique to explain how you did it in finding your treasure site, rather than just bashing my story. Yet, I know there's reasons for that. Some think an awful lot of themselves in building their elaborate theories based on one pic, without having been there. I've been around enough to know when someone is BS'ing me. You can wrap a BS theory in flowery phrases and explain the rationale for it, using articultate and skillful use of the English language. But, it's still BS. My attitude annoys some. Oh well! The Schultz story is finished, unless the talkers are more than talk. And yeah, you're one of those clowns.

[JT]

 Like I said, I hope you are relying on false info, and are not trying to run an eventual scam on someone based on your "info" and "prowess" in finding something.

 I've never seen someone defend to the death the hypothesis that they found a hole where treasure USED to be. I can see defending your hypothesis if you had actually found something...anything. Even a plaque from Schultz saying "I buried money here".

 You don't have that. You don't have anything. The proof you offer up..... your own picture of the tree..... shoots down your theory. It doesn't prove that Schultz hid anything there, left a beer bottle there, or even peed in the bushes there.

 What it does prove is that either you don't have the commonsense to realize that your "evidence" cannot be true, or it proves that you're lying, and you carved the date on the tree, because I've already established that the size of the tree coupled with tight bark and fresh wood under it means it cannot be 75 or 80 years old.

 Everyone makes wrong conclusions, and that's ok. It's part of the hunt. If you want to stubbornly insist that you found the correct empty hole, and you want to be considered the "resident expert" on the Schultz cache, as you put it, then go right ahead. The majority of people that look at your "evidence" will realize that it doesn't pass the smell test.

 If you are trying to work an angle to scam money from some unsuspecting sap, I hope he/she reads this, and walks away before it's too late. You may be perfectly honest, and you may truly believe that you are correct, but something about your posts gives me the opposite impression. I hope I'm wrong.

[ThePete]

Until such time as someone else finds that concusive proof, they claim I missed, I'm going to rightfully consider myself the resident expert on the Schultz cache. It would be a much more effective technique to explain how you did it in finding your treasure site, rather than just bashing my story. Yet, I know there's reasons for that. Some think an awful lot of themselves in building their elaborate theories based on one pic, without havong been there. I've been around enough to know when someone is BS'ing me. You can wrap a BS theory in flowery phrases and explain the rationale for it, using articultate and skillful use of the English language. But, it's still BS. My attitude annoys some. Oh well! The Schultz story is finished, unless the talkers are more than talk. And yeah, you're one of those clowns.

So far you are one of the few to present any form of evidence. If is up to others at this point to spend time, effort and money to present any form of evidence to disprove your claim. Thanks for the story.

[SWR]

I've never seen someone defend to the death the hypothesis that they found a hole where treasure USED to be. I can see defending your hypothesis if you had actually found something...anything. Even a plaque from Schultz saying "I buried money here".

I agree, JT. An empty hole is just that? empty. Empty of proof, or evidence.

Jim

[ThePete]

GaBnn3, you do not need to name them. If you post a similar explaination such as the last one without names.  They answer back all on their own.   

[GaBnn3]

F2D, you are so right. Shame on me. My boys were with me, and take great pride on being part of the discovery. These guys came along trying to spoil it for us.

[corriente]

I am more interested in the origins of the Dutch Schultz treasure legend than the treasure itself, especially the association with Phoenicia New York.  Where did it come from?  A member of the Dutch Schultz mob mentioned his 3 foot by 2 foot by foot and a half steel treasure box in a magazine article in the late 1930s and speculated he might have buried it someplace.  But there was no mention in that article of Phoenicia or the Catskills or anyplace else for that matter.  The earliest reference I can find to Schultz?s supposed car ride to bury the treasure around Phoenicia with his bodyguard  was in the 1968 book by Emil Schumacher entitled, ?Lost Treasures and How to Find Them.?  But Schumacker does not list his sources and is deceased and there are some serious factual problems with his account.  Does anyone know of written sources, newspaper or magazine articles, or other authoritative information concerning the treasure that pre-dates 1968?  So far I have not been able to fine any.  Most other accounts of the treasure post date the Schumacker version and seem to be based on it. 

[GaBnn3]

I did mention, above, the known sources of information on this account, which I'll review in a moment. A couple of posters, above, threw around the "R" word, research, pretty loosely. When I see that, I know I'm hearing from one who doesn't understand the artistic nature of cache hunting. They throw around the "r" word in a context that suggests if one digs enough, one will always find that magic bullet of info that leads them directly to the object of their desires. Nothing could be further from the truth. Sometimes you just have to go with what you've got. What you would like to find is a written archive on the activities of a vicious and brutal gangster, who, by necessity, had to keep his activities secret from both the law and rival gangsters. These were not educted men who sought to preserve a historical account of themselves. You seek that magic bullet. Forget it. The primary source of info on this cache is Schultz, himself. After being shot, he lingered in a feverish delerium, with police stenographers at his side, taking down every word he spoke. There are a couple of books on his deathbed ramblings, due to the colorful gangster lingo he uses. Later the members of his gang only confirmed the treasure story. The only one who actually knew where it was buried was his bodyguard Lulu Rosencrantz, who was killed in the Schultz hit. You can be sure that Schultz did not trust his own gang members, whom he cheated on pay day. Lulu drew the map, which later fell into Shapiro's hands. In Schurmacher's account, Shapiro confirms the location of the cache as the Catskills, though he claims not to have found it. I have not verified Schurmacher's sources of information on the several important points he mentions. With Schurmacher's account being the primary source of information, I understand why you would want to track that info down. I had the same thoughts. I could not verify it, perhaps you can. Since, I could not verify it, I did the next best thing. I went into the field and looked. I found a likely spot that matched all known info. Having found this site, I now accept Schurmacher's account as well researched and accurate. You may suffer some discomfort at thinking it's not there for you. I assure you that my discomfort is much worse. If Lulu had not betrayed Schultz' confidence, by drawing the map, he would not have started the chain of events leading to it's recovery by Shapiro. In that case, it would have been sitting there waiting for me, and you never would have heard from me. One more thing. Kindly post the "serious factual errors" you believe exist in Schurmacher's account. I am not aware of any.

[corriente]

Thanks for the posting.  With regard to historical inaccuracies in the Schurmacher account, there are several.  According to both the ?Valacci Papers? and the ?Last Will and Testament of Lucky Luciano? Bo Wineberg?s negotiations with the Italian mob began in March 1934 vice 1933 as Schurmacher?s time line would suggest.    The most egregious error was Schurmacher claiming Krompier was killed in a Manhattan barber chair in late November 1935.  In fact he was hit in the Manhattan barber shop about an hour and half later on the same October 23rd night as Schultz but Krompier in fact survived.   Both Allan May?s ?Dutch Schultz Beer Baron of the Bronx? and Paul Sann?s ?Kill the Dutchman? indicate the gunmen fired from the doorway and fled immediately with no mention of rifling their victim?s pockets.  However, ?Bug? Workman did go through Schultz?s pockets.  And Schurmacher?s version of Schultz?s deathbed ramblings mentions Phoenicia by name but no other version does, at least none that I can find that predates Schurmacher.

Without corroboration I?m reluctant to take everything Schurmacher says at face value. Schurmacher was a prolific writer on the occult and unsolved mysteries for Bataam books and pulp men?s magazines like Saga and Argosy, but the authenticity of some of his other articles has been called into question.  For a critique of an article he wrote on spontaneous combustion ? where someone bursts into flame without an ignition source for no apparent reason --  do an internet search on the words ?Schurmacher Confabulation? without quotes.

Which leaves me still looking for a more satisfying explanation of where the Phoenicia connection comes from. Or to put it another way, does anyone remember treasure hunters looking for Schultz?s box around Phoenicia prior to the publication of Schumacher?s book in 1968?  If so, what were they basing their search on?  Thanks.

[GaBnn3]

I now see that I didn't clarify the answer to your question, so here it is. It was Schultz, himself, who on his deathbed indicated he had a treasure box hidden in the Phoenicia area. This info appeared in newspapers of the day, leading to many amateurish attempts to find it. You are as skeptical of my claim to have located the former burial site, as you are of Schurmachers info, which is cool. Like I've said before, it's a nice walk in the woods. The points you raise on Schurmacher's account seem minor to me.

[serpent]

Hello everyone,   I do not claim to have read the entire thread, but I certainly will. Dutch Schultz is more than a passing interest to me, I have read " To Kill The Dutchman" and have a copy of Rouges Gallery: Dutch Schultz. A great documentary with Willaim Devane as narrarator  I might add. I'm sure many of you have seen it.  I would start out by saying that my initial thought on the whole treasure subject was that 7 million dollars will not fit into a chest that size, lets think vault or a tunnel into the sides of one of those Phoenicia mountains, and way beyond a mere arms reach. No one, and you can quote me on this : No one would bury that kind of money within arms reach. End quote.  I read alot in the winter and its a first time read of an old book : Murder Inc. The story of the syndacite. I also have " The Life and Times of Lepke Buchalter" on order. From what I have read it seems that the Catskills were a dumping ground and many murders were committed there also. The area was host to many mobsters such as Lepke and Jack " Legs" Diamond, whose men fought running shootouts with the Dutchmans men on dark country roads.  I'll bet there is alot more than just Dutch's money up in those hills.

[GaBnn3]

You are quite right about the Catskills. This area was a waypoint for the gangsters running booze from Canada down to the city. Locals also ran stills for the Dutchman up in this area. It wouldn't surprize me to hear that someone found one of their cache sites. In fact, due to certain features, I located the ideal area to search, where I thought Schultz should have buried it. Yet, it was not in Phoenicia proper. In deciding whether or not Schultz may have known of this spot, my decision to search that area was finalized after I learned that a Schultz still was in that immediate vicinity. That spot was where I found the site.

[serpent]

I'm sure you know the area very well by now. I've wanted to see it firsthand for quite awhile, maybe this will be the summer. I've had geographical survey maps of the area for some years. weather or not Dutch's treasure is gone there is probably more like you suggested to look for, I even remember reading a paragraph in a well known book saying as much. What amazes me is that your average gangster was so greedy that he would rather take it to the grave than tell his wife or mother were it was so that they wouldnt be poor once they had been killed or died. I have read this about alot of them. I hope that there will still be areas that one can operate in by the time I get up there, now a days you have to involve property owners and its been one hastle after another to get anything done. But it would be a real thrill to get to do it.

[GaBnn3]

Corriente: I did a quick re-read of the Schurmacher account. You have made some assumptions about his time line, which I don't read into his account. Schultz was indicted and went on the run in Jan. '33, until turning himself in, in Nov.'34. Of course Luciano's contact with Weinberg was within this period. I don't see where you find an error. As for the attempted hit on Krompier, Schurmacher states it occurred "one day in late November." This is correct, for 1934. In any case, if these were errors, they are insignificant. I like puzzles. I created a puzzle within this thread. There is enough info contained herein for someone to find the spot. I had hoped for someone to follow my reasoning and arrive at the same deductions as me. Instead, I find most struggling with small details. Here's another clue. On Lulu's map, there is reference to one feature he drew, described as a small, shack-like structure, with the notation "Lodging for Hunters and Fishermen." This structure is still standing today. If the suspense is killing you, e-mail me.

[Tags:]

Treasure > Treasure Hunting > Treasure In The News! (Moderators: Marc, jeff of pa) > Topic: Dutch Schultz Catskill Treasure