2008 fall,& 2009 spring w/ bird head effigys, need help ID'ing 2 points

[larson1951]

My friend picked these up between last fall and this morning with the exception of the game piece I gave him(small frame,Bottom center)
what kind of points are these 2 points in the 1rst frame, lower left & lower right they are different than what I usually see in the Dakotas,
note the small game piece on bottom right of the 2nd frame, it is the smallest bone game piece I have seen, it looks like a likeness of a bug was incised into it

[GL]

Those are spectacular as always Larson.

[quito]

Great stuff.

[mamabear]

Ok breathe! thou shalt not covet, thou shalt not covet, thou shalt not covet, (it's not working)

[creek astronaut]

great relics as always

[quito]

Lower left is Oxbow Larson, and a very nice one too.

The other, it is hard to tell from the pic. Looks like the base isn't quite right, is it all there?

Joel

[larson1951]

Quito, I will look at it and see if the base is broke

then I will let you know, thanks for your continuing interest, I really appreciate it

[coteau]

I like that Oxbow, in North Dakota they date from 3300-2500 BC. I've only found two complete Oxbow points in the last twenty-five years of looking. They can be found everywhere in the Northern Plains, but are rarer than other Archaic points, such as Pelican Lakes, Mckeans, Besants, etc.

[Tnmountains]

Top frame far right incised bone. Is that what you would consider a spider web design?

[larson1951]

Tn, I don't know what the designs stand for on those game pieces
it sure could be a spider web
do you know what any of some of the other markings stand for?

Quito, the other point is all there

[Tnmountains]

Not sure Larson what the others designs are. I have alway heard that the Indians compass was much diffrent then ours.We have north south east and west. I was told that they looked at things as if they were in the center and then the 4 points going out from them.Kinda like I am here and there is nort south east and west. I beleive the turtle effigys were thought of as them being the shell then the four legs the diffrent directions.(not sure about the tail lol ).
I do know spider webs and spiders were thought to be mystical emblems. In this area the wood pecker was often an effigy
TnMtns

[creek astronaut]

Tn mts,the tail means im lost!lol.very interesting speculating on these types of artifacts.could they be something other than a game piece?not disputing,just wonderingtally marks,ancient calculator?good thread larson1951.

[Tnmountains]

Art and things on ancient items only really started showing up a lot when they had abundant food and settled.It gave time for creativity instead of having to constantly forage. In the latter stages of their ways of life like in the Dallas period they got real artsy. Larsons finds show they had time to be creative and play around some. Craftsmanship was at its best and is reflected in his many post.Similiar finds like what Dorkfish shows from his site. Am sure Quito has some ideas as well.
I have to think they were in lodges with crops growing where he was. He should be able to answer this. I am sure tally marks on small items could have represented many things and maybe something like "I will return in this many marks." Its all speculation with out written records but its fun to surmise and guess.