Glass Points? Why the controversy? Photos Included

[Airborne80]

About a year ago, I posted a large group of what I believed to be glass points, made from bottles and/or window glass. A moderator here quickly moved the post with the explanation being that he was not sure if I was joking and in any case, this site was for known artifacts, not possible points. Well…. During the past year, I continued to pick up many of these items and more importantly, did some homework. Two things of importance were discovered. One, a glass exert in my area has positively dated most of my glass as being pre 18th and in many cases 17th century. Second, my reading on the subject makes it very clear that many Indians (not just Ishi ) used bottle and window glass obtained by way of trade, raid and discovery, for points. And so……

The primary site that I hunt in, is a known summer fishing village site that saw use from ancient times, up through the Woodland period. The site does not have trash and debris on the ground and yet…. I consistently discover these glass points in the surf line at low tide. While I literally have hundreds of these, I have posted some recent (July August) finds for you to study. Please take note of the obvious worked base and edged on some. Could it be that the only glass "Trash" that occurs at this known Indian site, just happens to break itself into consistent points of similar size and shape? I don’t think so. These points would be perfect for the type of spear fishing that historians say took place here.

While agreeing with me is not a requirement at all, I really do hope to see some real thoughtful dialog on the subject here, as it seems to be an area with little mention here. While these points may not be older than three or four hundred years, if they are in fact points, are they not also American Indian artifacts? Please give us your thoughts and also… if anyone else has found these items, please post your photos.

[jpitt1970]

I definitely see a couple that appear to have been worked and a few just look like broken glass...I have seen a few glass points at shows. I also know of a local guy here that has a bunch that he found on a mound in the middle of a swamp.

I agree 100% that a couple of your pics are glass projectile points just not all of them.

Jon

[Neanderthal]

Those pics you're showing looks like just broken glass. I really can't see any modification on them that would lead me to the conclusion that they were utilized as projectiles. However, the native American's DID utilize glass (and whatever else they could get their hands on) to fashion points. If I can remember, I will try to get you some pics of some glass points from the west coast (Calapooya). They were collected by a family in coastal northern CA. and souther OR. in the early 1900's.

They also fashioned other things out of glass, such as tools. When doing the Arch. site survey for the Saline Courthouse site here locally, I found a real nice glass scraper, and a few others were found also. I have pics of those also around here somewhere.

[Airborne80]

I definitely see a couple that appear to have been worked and a few just look like broken glass...I have seen a few glass points at shows. I also know of a local guy here that has a bunch that he found on a mound in the middle of a swamp.

I agree 100% that a couple of your pics are glass projectile points just not all of them.

Jon

Thanks jpittt... I have soooo many of these and its astonishing when I see how many are just about identical. I posted recent finds here that depict the various sizes. You know... in the bottom two... not only can you clearly see the knapping marks but whats hard to see in the pics is the fin base of the point. Its been clearly knapped down to a fine, even (in terms of thickness) base, that would easily lend itself to mounting onto a shaft. Its a great example of what I find.

[Airborne80]

Those pics you're showing looks like just broken glass. I really can't see any modification on them that would lead me to the conclusion that they were utilized as projectiles. However, the native American's DID utilize glass (and whatever else they could get their hands on) to fashion points. If I can remember, I will try to get you some pics of some glass points from the west coast (Calapooya). They were collected by a family in coastal northern CA. and souther OR. in the early 1900's.

They also fashioned other things out of glass, such as tools. When doing the Arch. site survey for the Saline Courthouse site here locally, I found a real nice glass scraper, and a few others were found also. I have pics of those also around here somewhere.

Thanks Neanderthal.... as always, i appreciate your input. I will say this.... if non of them are points.... someone a couple or so hundred years ago... sure did break a lot of glass in one site and they all ended up with pointed tips and tapered bases Just my luck to stumble onto an Indian site covered din old broken glass

[Th3rty7]

Ishi along with some western tribes utilized glass for arrowheads, but I've never heard or seen evidence of them in the east, or Va. Glass is easily fractured, just tumbling down a stream banging into rocks can produce a knapped edge.

[Airborne80]

Ishi along with some western tribes utilized glass for arrowheads, but I've never heard or seen evidence of them in the east, or Va. Glass is easily fractured, just tumbling down a stream banging into rocks can produce a knapped edge.

True statements but I never rule anything out soley on the basis of it having never been seen before. Know what I mean? Everything had to be discovered once and as for the river shaping the glass..... thats a great observation save for the fact that there is no other glass on the beach. This is the potomac River which in Norther Virginia is NOT a rocky or fast moving river at all. Its a sandy bottom and if you have seen the many white quartz points that I have pulled from this river, you will notice a lack of deformation even after thousands of years in the water. The most telling "point" for me is the absolute lack of OTHER shaped glass. If I were seeing lots of broken gall around, i would never have even noticed these items.

[Neanderthal]

Thanks Neanderthal.... as always, i appreciate your input. I will say this.... if non of them are points.... someone a couple or so hundred years ago... sure did break a lot of glass in one site and they all ended up with pointed tips and tapered bases Just my luck to stumble onto an Indian site covered din old broken glass

It's possible that they could have used them as projectiles or tools, I just don't see any sign of modification to confirm it for sure. By human nature, we've always been collectors and practical scavengers. When an aboriginal would see a rock or something that would fill the bill as a tool without much need of modification, they'd take advantage of it. Like fossilized Crinoid plant stems for instance. The vast majority of "Crinoid beads" have never been used as such, but every now and then you will them that have been positively drilled for use as such. Some occur naturally with holes and I'm sure they would use those whenever they could just to save some time. Same thing for gar scales, fish bones, hematite rinds, etc.

However, you cannot assume that everything found on a site was utilized by them simply because it's there either. It's easy to assume it has been, but that's really not the case. Sometimes it's very hard to determine what has been or hasn't been, finding human modification sure makes the task a whole lot easier!

When you start seeing repetitive patterns too, that helps. For years I have been finding these round quartzite stones on sites around here. I dismissed the first few as an anomaly, but had to raise an eyebrow after 20 or so were found. They are very round semi-translucent quartzite stones that seem to range from baseball to softball size. They have no signs of human modification. Their source is nowhere close, however they are found commonly on certain Mississippian sites. Enough of them have turned up that I am sure they aren't a mishap - I'm just not sure what they are.

[Tnmountains]

No Idea here. Just sitting back and enjoying this topic and conversation. Be curious if any glass projectile points have been recovered and recorded in your area in burials. Having just one in context would help.

[uniface]

A variety of the same issue comes up with trying to determine if an old uniface is a specific tool form (which may not have been given a name). I figure once is an accident, and twice may be a coincidence. But when the third one turns up, it's a pattern. They may not have made very many or made them very often, but the third one's a charm.

Other people think differently.

[uniface]

PS : the Aborigines in Australia did the same thing. Stopped using quartzite & used bottle glass.

[MEinWV]

I don't believe anything can be discounted totally, in the realm of the contact period. Natives found that horses, guns, clothing, etc. were a valuable asset, and so they used them. Settlers were banned, at one time, from trading iron pots and other tools to the natives because they were turning them into weapons, If glass was available for them to use, they would have used it. A glass point would not have to be finely knapped to be useable, just broken into a basic shape.

All that being said, It doesn't take that long for glass to be tumbled into a rounded, frosted shape in the surf. I found lots of old glass at beaches and it is mostly all frosty, round edged pieces. Unless the points were very recently washed out of their original resting places, they would probably not display any smooth, glassy and sharp surfaces. They could, however, display conchoidal fractures, both old and new, that could have been either manmade, or caused by nature.

You have some interesting pieces there, and it is definitely worth the effort to see this through to a conclusion that is acceptable to all.

Thanks and good luck!

[Treasure_Hunter]

I see rocks posted in the belief they are arrowheads because they are in the general shape of an arrowhead. There are people who any point can be sent to who can look at them under microscope and tell if they have been worked. It will cost, but if the belief is strong enough it could be worth it to the owner. Glass spent long enough on the ground in fields will have chips on the edges.

To me they are plain pieces of glass, but I am not an expert by any means, just a collector. There are artifact shows in your area, take them to a show, there are many experts there at the shows and see what they tell you.

Good luck and good hunting.

[bravowhiskey]

Even if glass were the material used, it still would look worked. For example....



pieces for demo only, not to be confused with authentic artifacts.

[BuckleBoy]

Glass ends up that way when the field is plowed every year.


Either that or I have passed up a hundred glass arrowheads while walking the fields at old homesites in Kentucky this year.



Just out of curiousity, do you metal detect too? If so, turn on your machine in that area, turn the discrimination down to zero, and tell us if you hear any Iron.



Regards,



Buckles

[lostcauses]

Ahh here is a situation of glass fragments. I doubt any are worked other then the ones shown for example. Yet glass was used for arrowheads, and even some tools. They were worked just as flint or other such material. yet for the most part when glass showed up so did metal, and of course the adaptation of that makes such artifacts of glass rare.

[Bluesy]

Airborne, http://www.westernartifacts.com/museum.htm has one on their Museum page made from railroad signal glass - maybe yours were worked just enough to get a job done?

[crow12c]

well last time I gave my op. on stuff like this it got someones shorts all up in their throat. so ill just say nice glass man. later crow.

[Th3rty7]

well last time I gave my op. on stuff like this it got someones shorts all up in their throat. so ill just say nice glass man. later crow.

Dont be scared to give your opinion, if something looks questionable, it deserves a debate. I mean let's be honest here, we're looking at pictures on the internet, you really cant be 100% sure about authenticity looking at a picture. There are thousands of skilled flintknappers out there able to produce exact replicas with convincing patinas.

[SoIll]

Glass scraper.