A few examples of effigies, human & animal plus primitive art

[archaeon]

first are a couple of Mayan human head effigies, both were pendants, one possibly ritually killed, or just broken, lol.
second is not NA, but pretty cool. an Anatolian bull effigy made of cast copper, about 5,000 yrs old
third is also not NA, but Australian Aborigine. it is an abalone single hole gorget(broken, reglued )
it has a drawing on it depicting a scene of a flea chasing after a kangaroo. part of their dreamtime myths.

[Vicegrip]

very cool

[Molly.]

Nice to see effigies that we can all see what they are.
Thankyou for posting those, very nice.

Molly.

[Rege-PA]

The Spring 2008 issue of the Ohio Archaeologist has an article on similar masks carried by the Shawnee`s .

[MEinWV]

Nice looking material on that first pic.

Cool items you have! Thanks!

[archaeon]

this was the original post. feel free to post effigies here if you have any.

[jeff of pa]

this was the original post. feel free to post effigies here if you have any.

So I can Move them All Back ?

No game Playing here we are not Children.

[ClonedSIM]

this was the original post. feel free to post effigies here if you have any.

So I can Move them All Back ?

No game Playing here we are not Children.

Well, this isn't really a game, Jeff.  In dorkfish's pictures, it's readily apparent that the effigies were man-made and he's requesting others post their effigies as well.

kneesdeep began posting his pictures before dorkfish ever asked that others post theirs as well, in a sense cluttering up the thread without invitation or explanation.  And there's the issue with kneesdeep's finds lacking the typical tool-marks one would normally find on a man-made creation.

[archaeon]

please do not move those rocks back here, this is an effigy thread, not a "what is this?" thread. and i am not dorkfish, lol, cool guy, but im not him, haha

[jeff of pa]

this was the original post. feel free to post effigies here if you have any.

So I can Move them All Back ?

No game Playing here we are not Children.

Well, this isn't really a game, Jeff. In dorkfish's pictures, it's readily apparent that the effigies were man-made and he's requesting others post their effigies as well.

kneesdeep began posting his pictures before dorkfish ever asked that others post theirs as well, in a sense cluttering up the thread without invitation or explanation. And there's the issue with kneesdeep's finds laking the typical tool-marks one would normally find on a man-made creation.

kneesdeep's look as good as the rest & he is a member here also.

Discussion is Ended !

I Hope

[archaeon]

you have got to be kidding

[jeff of pa]

you have got to be kidding

Yes Yours above are Very obvious but his look no more like regular rocks
then some examples posted that yous were quick to say were real.

[archaeon]

Jeff, that's because I know what I'm doing. artifact collecting goes back three generations in my family and on more than one continent. You are referring to dorfishs' effigy head. not putting anyone down here. if the pic was still up, lol, you could see that his had INCISED lines. maybe to a layman it would be hard to see, but after seeing thousands of pipe effigies, not too mention i make and fire my own effigy pipe replicas, it was a no brainer to me and probably to most collectors on here. it had an obvious mouth, carved by man.
and with doorkfishs' extensive collecting background an many posts of ther hundreds of artifacts he's collected, it's very doubtfull that he has any imaginationland finds in his vast collection. so far kneedeep has not posted any artifacts that i can tell, just my opinion here.

[jeff of pa]

and with doorkfishs' extensive collecting background an many posts of ther hundreds of artifacts he's collected, it's very doubtfull that he has any imaginationland finds in his vast collection. so far kneedeep has not posted any artifacts that i can tell, just my opinion here.

& this is where I have the Problem.

How do you Know Kneedeep does not have a extensive Collecting Backround ?

You "Appear" to have Labeled him from his First post.

You also appear to not have an open mind.

I take it you do not believe there is anything new to learn in the
past lives of Man ? as far as the Artifacts they left behind.

Sorry I am trying to Understand.

[archaeon]

Jeff, I have an open mind. But also an analytical one. People have asked Kneedeep repeatedly to post any other finds besides his rocks, and he doesn't do it. People have asked Kneedeep to post links with proof or at least some kind of substantiation of his claims. He DID post a bunch of links, but NONE of them had any proof, and no pics to backup his claims...that's because there isn't any proof out there!
Archaeologists would look at his stuff for one second and see that there is no human work done to them. Most hunters learn early on what makes a rock an artifact. Symmetry, grinding, incised lines(usually made by a stone knife, teeth from animal jaws, or even etching done with a type of acid)...

Iknow many many collectors with huge collections, combined years oof collecting about 300 years total and these guys have the ULTIMATE collections of Florida, and fact is, effigies are very, very rare.

but kneedeep has many many many of them, more than any collector i know, and i'm talkin the BIG, top collectors.

and of course there is much new information to be learned! but one thing we aren;'t going to learn is that Native American artists were clumsy oafs with no artistic ability! we aren't going too all of a sudden learn that effigies are everywhere, and we aren't going to learn that kneedeps stuff are artifacts. i would bet my house on it.
you asked some questions, and those are my answers

[jeff of pa]

Thank you For your Opinion & Explanation.

I somewhat understand your Reasoning.

But I will not take sides.

This is a Forum open to everyone to post their finds.

Opinions on finds can be Given

But opinions on the Finders must be Friendly or kept to yourselves

[archaeon]

Thanks. Will do. Roger, overand out

[Molly.]

this was the original post. feel free to post effigies here if you have any.

Great post Archaeon, I would post my last find, found actually on a Archaic campsite, it's stone, looks like a bear,really but, it as no signs what so ever of workmanship, so its obviously not an indian artifacts & I'll not waste ppl's time with it or risk looking stupid in saying its a effigy.
Again great post,interesting too.

Molly.

[archaeon]

Molly, without seeing it it's impossible to tell. I think you should post it. I'm not saying that people shouldn't post what they think might be an effigy.....you wouldn't seem stupid by thinking something is an effigy. But if an overwhemling amont of pros say its a rock, good chances are that it's a rock that looks like something.

People should not be intimidated to post what they think might be something, I hope my posts towards kneedeep does not have that effect. The difference here is that he insists they are artifacts instead of listening to the people that know. And some of us really do know.

Not tryin to be a smartazz here. I just happen to have studied alot oof effigies from various cultures because I am a potter and in the past i liked to make replicas of them and fire them in my kiln. I have also carved soap stone effigies, and shell effigies.

So please, everyone, please post anything you might think might be something. After a while, you will learn to see what makes something an artifact and what doesn't.
Just remember, effigies are not all over the place, they are fairly rare, so chances are, most finds are geofacts.

[Molly.]

Thanks Archaeon, I'm not affected by your debate at all or feel intimidated I agree if lots of experienced collectors say something not what it seems then, they are most probably correct.
Like I said my bear shows NO workmanship at all, so not worth posting. You guys have taught me lots, I think I know when something's meant to be an effigy or not.
Keep up the great threads.

Molly. btw I couldn't be any more explanitary, I might get warned. lol.