Mexican Legends on the Treasure of Moctezuma

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

good morning Curtis: Obviously I agree with you since I married one of the enemy he he.

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

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[piegrande]

Real de Tayopa, here is my second hobby, one I am just learning.

Sorry, I deserve men have been beat up for far less than repairing a woman's picture without permission, but your wife is such a lovely woman, I couldn't resist it. Actually, I'm not sure it's that much better, but I am still learning.

If it doesn't look good posted, I will take it down, also if you want me to take it down let me know.

If you want it, ask, and I will tell you how to access it for printing. My photo editor glitched when converting it to jpeg, so I had to convert it from .gif from the command line. This took me several REMOVES to figure out.

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

HI Big foot: Beautifully done my friend, thanks. She loves it.

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[oddrock]

I just want to thank you for all the pictures/etc. , the history, the humor, and everything. You are in a beautiful country. Your wife is a classical beautiful woman...and I congratulate you....you already posses a treasure.

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Good evening oddrock: She thanks you deeply, and wonders why I don't consider her a treasure also? I do, I dooo, sigh.. See what you started hehehe.

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[piegrande]

If she wants that picture, or you do, here is a way to get if if you don't already know how. I think there are several ways. The lazy way, my way of course, is to go to your browser FILE item in the menu, and click on SAVE PAGE AS. If it has that.

Tell it where you want to save it. Then, go there, and you should see a basic html file, and a folder with the same name, ending in .files or something like that. They will not be together, of course.

If you go into that folder, this photo should be there. If you get it to Wal-mart via flash or CD, you should be able to make copies. Kids and grandkids might like them. Sometimes the machine will screw things up when it makes it exactly 4X6.

Actually, I was not satisfied with my work, but I don't have a lot of experience yet.

 

[piegrande]

Since no one has yet told me to stop posting off-topic photos, here is my masterpiece. The local director of Culture is attempting to accumulate historical items, and someone gave or loaned her a post card, in pretty bad shape. I worked all day, I mean like 10 or 12 hours, and it came out so well it almost shocked ME.

The card was dated in handwriting, 1908, which does not mean the card was brand new. One interesting thing someone pointed out that I missed in a whole day looking at pixels, the church tower has partially collapsed, and they have work platforms in place for repairs. My friend said there was a major earthquake in Mexico City around that time, but we can't find it online.

There is some hocus pocus in fixing photos like this. At the very left bottom corner the original has some body parts missing, in at least two white scratches. The one, I found a hand on another man that looked like it would look good in the white scratch, and simply pasted it there. the other one looked like he was carrying a blanket, so I drew in a blanket.

I told the Directora it was a fraud, and told her what I had done. She laughed and said, "I can't tell it, so it's not a fraud."

I told her, "It is still a fraud, it's just a really good fraud."

I do not know if this was a special event, sort of looks like a parade in places, or just a busy day in the Centro of a small town. Everything else looks like a busy day, but all those important men in suits in a group, left of center, look more formal. Anyway, that would have approximated what such a small Mexican village looked like 100 years ago.

 

[piegrande]

I actually at one time thought of saying where I am. Publicize the legends, get some people to come, spend a bit at local hotels, buy some food, pay a modest cost to guides to walk to the alleged tomb, a visit to the ruins of the old Moctezuma house, and send them home exhausted. Maybe the local pharmacies can even sell some Bactrim if they get the crud.

Who knows, maybe some local hotties might find a husband. As long as you don't walk away with the Lovely Gabriela!

But, then I realized sooner or later, someone is going to fall on the rocks, go back to the US and sue us out of existence. Or, better said, sue ME out of existence because I look like I have deeper pockets, with assets in the US. I don't want to sound negative, but y'all know this is the truth.

And, for a few lousy bucks, it isn't fair to put the local men, nor me, at that financial risk. It either has to be big business enough to afford liability insurance or don't do it at all.

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

You do excellent work my friend. As for your project, a Gringo can sue all he wants, but since it will be in a Mexican court ----he he h e. Remember, down here, we believe that if you're too damn stupid and step in holes or in front of moving Mules, automobiles, and jealous females, tough,

Don Jose de la Mancha

 

[piegrande]

In the tenth or so posting from top, are what the locals call witches hands, which look like hands held up on the white rock, then paint tossed at the hand.

A friend told me she had read that the Aztecs had a red paint which was made from a certain type of bugs all ground up. It was considered to be the paint of kings because it took so much work to make that only a rich person could make it in quantity.

I think I have heard of a paint made of bugs, but the name of them doesn't come to my mind right now.

I don't know if this is important, but remembered to type it in before I forget.

 

[cactusjumper]

piegrande,

Cochineal beetle, but only the female of the species. The Aztecs actually cultivated these bugs to insure a ready supply of the red dye made from the crushed bodies of the bugs.

Reference to this beetle can be found in many books on Aztec society, but one that comes to mind is "Aztecs of Mexico" by George C. Vaillant. Very nice read for anyone interested in the Aztecs.

Take care,

Joe

 

[piegrande]

Yeah, that's the one. I simply couldn't remember the name. Thanks.

 

[piegrande]

A few weeks ago, we heard about 10:30 one night, a loud roaring noise. My wife said, "That was a stone wall going down. Or a tree."

In the morning, we learned that a large old tree by that old house pictured above had fallen. It was a complex tree, four or more trunks coming out of the same base, and it fell all four ways. It did land on part of the ruins, but as far as I can tell no damage to the house ruins. Amazing.

A big trunk, at least 20 inches up and down, though slightly narrower, had fallen across the entrance. My wife was having to crawl under this to take food to the uncles in the morning.

When she went back to Texas, I started chain-sawing. My Stihl MS210 was cutting crooked, and I finally realized the chain was defective from the factory, with 13 left cutters and 14 right cutters. Now, it works great with a new chain.

But, I bought an 18 inch bar and chain to update it to the 18 inch, from the original 16 inch. Works really great now.

It is amazing that simple construction would survive a hit from a large tree.

 

[piegrande]

Actually, the falling tree did no visible damage to the old Moctezuma house. However, cutting up the fallen tree did somehow knock down a piece of it, not large, maybe the size of a standard door.

 

[piegrande]

I am never clear if I should start a new thread or not. Since what I am going to post directly adds to this thread, it seems right to post it here, although it would also do well as a separate thread.

I have stated that my wife is often "wound pretty tight." She came back Sunday from a month in the States, including ten days in Orlando Disney with her grandson and family.

Tonight she was in an unusually mellow mood. She mentioned that she might take the direct bus into Mexico City to buy nice disposable plastic plates for the Girl Genius' wedding January 28th, and make it back the same day.

I mentioned I had considered doing the same one day trip, except to perhaps buy a metal detector. She said she thought I had my old one with me. I told her, no, it didn't work, the on/off switch is broken, and I didn't get time to fix it in Texas.

I told her I wanted a Garrett, might be in Mexico as much as $400 or $500. She was surprised. I told her the old one, must have been 25 or more years ago, cost like $250 or more.

She asked what do I want with a metal detector. I pointed at the ancient house down the street. I said I think the uncles will let me snoop, and anything I find I will give them.

She said when she was a girl, which meant for all practical purposes pre-1954, people used to come and search, even with metal detectors. I have no idea how good metal detectors were 60 years ago, but would not use their presence as reason not to try a new detector. She said they didn't find anything. I laughed, and said you really mean they didn't admit to finding anything.

She said once she found an old coin, she thinks it may have been Carlos IV. (1788-?) Her grandma took the coin, and in the 1966 earthquake when an aunt was badly injured, people came in and looted a lot of stuff, including the chests full of old clothes from the 19th Century. (She has one dress of the last Moctezuma woman, partly good, some water damage.) Anyway, the coin also disappeared.

She suddenly remembered something her grandfather once told her. He said in one room of the house, they dug up bones, and a gold necklace. The bones were buried in the local cemetery, and the gold necklace was given to the church.

I asked, "Which room?" She laughed, and said, "I am not telling you."

Then, in a minute she said her grandpa also said there was a step in the ground where they found the bones. Whatever that means. My own guess is a buried step would indicate something is there, like an underground room or tunnel, but what do I know?

She said there is another place where she believes the treasure might be buried, but she is also not telling me that. I mentioned tunnels, and she said it is alleged there are four here, one running for miles. I have explained that I do not believe, because marble fills with water, and no tunnel running for miles could remain usable. I told her there is a tunnel which runs west out of the old church (1620?) across the street, but a man went down it and after a couple blocks decided he had enough of it.

You might wonder why they didn't explore that buried step. She said when her grandfather let people dig on his land, he often said he had no desire to dig up anything he didn't bury, let them have it. Strange, but he was a strange man in his own way, I guess.

He was "mayor", actually they say president, three times. Now there are hard political campaigns. In those days, the town leaders would come and beg him to be the president. The difference is now they get money. In those days, if he wanted something done, he might have paid for it out of his own money. So, it was a dubious honor to be president.

He had his own son tossed in jail for public drunkenness once. Which gives you a clue to his personality, I guess.

My wife said we could go to Mexico City together, and she would get plastic plates for the wedding, and I could go and buy my metal detector. I said I had thought of that, but will wait until next trip to the States.

Edited: I said above I would tell the truth here. In this posting, the truth is I am telling you something my wife told me that she says her grandfather told her. In other words, this is a family legend. No way to know if it is the truth or not.

 

[piegrande]

A summary of local legends, as best as I can remember them all.

1. Legend: the local house ruins were once property of Emperor Moctezuma. Possible, but all that is verified is a daughter of Moctezuma I married the local chief quite a few years before Cortes came. Her son was already chief when Cortes came. In those days, the Aztec emperors married daughters of as many chiefs of surrounding tribes as they could, for political reasons. They also married their various daughters off to surrounding chiefs for the same reason. It is presumed my wife's family is descended from that woman, but it is not verified. In the late 18th Century, the house was definitely property of a family using the name Moctezuma, this is verified in spades. There is evidence that the Moctezuma name came from a mother, not the father, for political reasons, and I do know who that mother was, probably 17th Century. A retired historian is working on the local Moctezuma history, if he lives long enough to finish.

2. Legend: That the local chiefs came to the house to pay tribute to the Moctezuma family. That the people living here would watch. In the daytime, the gold would go in. Next morning the gold would not be visible. There is historical evidence that the local tribe paid tribute to the Aztecs. It may have been in this house, or not. Part of the problem is no one is sure when the house was built. It is believed to have been pre-Cortes, which is possible, but not verified. It is certain the house was present and in use by the mid-18th Century (1750).

3. Legend: When Tenochtitlan fell, workers came out here and worked a week burying the treasure. Except to comment this is much more likely than taking the treasure a thousand miles to the north through enemy territory, there is no evidence to support this.

When her cousin came to work this morning, I mentioned the tale of the bones and gold necklace. He had heard the same thing from the same grandpa who died in the early 70's. He said it happened when the grandpa was a boy, definitely pre-1911 when the Moctezuma descended mother died, and the young man moved to the ranch a few miles away, returning only in 1939 when his father died and he inherited the house and its ranch. He said a ghost showed him where to dig. My wife objected when I repeated this. She said her grandfather simply did not believe in ghosts and said so very clearly. Cousin also said the gold necklace paid for a new church or chapel bell, and that the bones did go to the local cemetery. Still legend, but it at least supports my wife telling what her grandpa had said to her.

He did tell me which room it was found in. He said there was also a lot of very high quality pottery buried with it. And, the burial hole was like 2.5 meters by 2 meters.

4. Fact: This same cousin and his son, now around 30, were working on a new house east of here, but I don't know when, except it would have been in the last 15 years. They encountered a grave with 8 skeletons laying side by side, and 8 ceremonial cups one on top of the other. The teeth were like ivory. I did not understand this, because old teeth should be like ivory. They told me teeth buried in recent years are already decomposed in less than 20 years. Drinking too much pop?

The owner of the property put all the bones in a bag, and sent them (edited: the workers, not the bones) home for the day. He re-buried them somewhere else. I know where they found them, but not where they are buried.

5. My own wild, insane conjecture: The floor of that room is very low. The rooms uphill from my wife's childhood bedroom are elevated a meter or two. Those rooms indeed have room for something, such as a 'basement' or dugout beneath them, yet above the water table.

If the chief had a storage room under those higher rooms, that would agree with the overnight hiding of tribute gold. And, to dig up and drag in dirt to fill the storage room might well have taken a week, if it were large.

GPR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I mentioned GPR, and cousin said when they excavated the ancient indigenous fort some years ago, an engineer had some sort of device, and he would walk along, looking down at it, and would say things like, "There are stair steps (escalones) down there." I know the new GPR's have some sort of complex digital storage capacity, but do not know if the early ones, several decades ago had a display panel which would agree with that report.

Half my kingdom for a GPR!

 

[Springfield]

.... Half my kingdom for a GPR!

They have limited effectiveness. They are pretty good on flat, even, unobstructed terrain (they were developed to verify rebar placement under concrete pavement). They give questionable results on steeper, rockier, cluttered, brushy terrain and on random fill. You're best served with an experienced operator.

 

[piegrande]

Since I have had no contact with GPR, I can not speak in an informed manner. But, if a GPR can't spot a filled 'basement' under a ~2,000 square foot house with a dirt floor, they are totally worthless, IMO. What I have read would indicate they can do that, but that is reading technical articles on them.

Anyway, it is improbable I will ever have money to obtain the use of a GPR.

 

[Springfield]

Since I have had no contact with GPR, I can not speak in an informed manner. But, if a GPR can't spot a filled 'basement' under a ~2,000 square foot house with a dirt floor, they are totally worthless, IMO. What I have read would indicate they can do that, but that is reading technical articles on them.

Anyway, it is improbable I will ever have money to obtain the use of a GPR.

May work, may not. Many have spent significant money to rent them and have been disappointed. Of course, the disappointment may also have arisen from a lack of a target to be detected. Might have to revert to a shovel to find out. It's cheaper and the results are indisputable.

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Springfield: you posted --> Might have to revert to a shovel to find out.
****************
sheehs, just how sadistic can one be? Physical work??

Don Jose de La Mancha