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  1. #1
    mx
    May 2010
    580
    78 times

    Mexican Legends on the Treasure of Moctezuma

    I mean no offense when I make a joke here. I apologize if my sense of humor offends anyone.

    Also, I want to tell you that I am typing this on a text editor, and will proofread it several times to make sure every word is as literally true as I can make it. I cannot give you the proof you would seek, but you already know that, don't you? The good news is, I don't care a bit if anyone believes it. I am old, and I don't care much what anyone thinks of me.

    By literal truth, I mean if I tell you there is a local legend, I am NOT saying the legend is true, I am saying it is the truth the legend itself exists. Of course, if I say the legend has been proved true, that statement will also be true.

    If I didn't desire to keep my location hidden from you, I could give you URL's to support much of what I say is proved true. Alas, as experienced treasure hunters, you know the score on that.

    I tell you, when I read on a thread the theory that Montezuma (I will use the current spelling, which is Moctezuma here in Mexico, the standard spelling has changed over the last 500 years) was taken 1200 miles to the Superstition mountains in Arizona for burial, I had a good laugh.

    The Aztecs were good soldiers, which means they had some military strategy. They did conquer most of Mexico in their day. There seems to be no written record of Moctezuma's removal from Tenochtitlan although maybe some of you found things I don't know about. But, it is hilarious to imagine we know they took him north, just because someone saw them going north.

    "Hey, look everybody! We are going north. See! North. That'away, North! Yep, north. Don't forget, we took him North. North; pass it on!" Hee, hee.

    Which tells me they took him South! Or, any direction but North.

    The Aztecs documented everything, much like the Germans did. I have heard of no description of their native land that would tell us exactly where it is. So, until it appears, I must assume their claim to have wandered around for a very long time with no way to know exactly where they came from is true.

    I have been married to a Mexican woman for almost 35 years. Before we married in 1975, she told me her family was descended from Emperor Moctezuma, and he originally owned the small avocado ranch currently belonging to her family.

    I am afraid I was not nice about it. I told her, sarcastically, "Yeah, and George Washington vacationed there while his troops froze off their cojones in Valley Forge, right?"

    It was bad enough I had to eat crow, but worse yet, the crow forced down my throat was road kill. After I started visiting that small ranch, I learned that scholars at UNAM, the big University in Mexico City, had learned much of it was true, which I will address farther on.

    I am in my comfortable albeit unfinished retirement home between 80 and 150 miles SE of Mexico City. It is located on land which at least in the 18th Century, until the early 20th Century, belonged to known descendants of the family of Moctezuma. In fact, my house is about 75 meters from the ruins of the house which is well documented was property of a member of that family who lived here in the 18th Century.

    It is not proved that he was descended from Moctezuma himself. In fact, I expect he was not. They did prove he was descended from family (parientes) of Moctezuma. I got this from a doctoral thesis of a woman Ph. D. from a university in Madrid, Spain. A friend found it online, and it fascinated the whole family, because it proved they are descended from Moctezuma's family, at least, if not the Emperor himself, as the family tradition has said.

    Around 1700, a man surnamed Moctezuma, and known to be from Moctezuma's family, owned over 23,000 hectares (almost 51,000 acres, or 79 square miles.) His son, the owner of the family home at that time, which my wife lived in from the time she was 4 until she went away to high school in Mexico City, inherited less than 20% of that amount.

    There is a genealogical gap from his death in the late 18th Century until the last female member of the family was born in the late 1800's (records from Latter Day Saints database.) She married my wife's great-grandfather, and after her death before WWI, the ownership passed to the Martinez family, where it resides today.

    We don't have the names from the time he died in the late 18th Century till she was born, with one sister,and no brothers to carry on the family name. But, same surname, same house, so we have just accepted the direct descendancy as self obvious.

    Between 1600 and 1700, the surname Moctezuma in its various spellings was spread all over the Central Highlands, I got 256 hits from the database, but the great majority were in Mexico City. This makes sense because that is where the Emperor lived and had the most wives.

    So, there may - or may not - be many places where there are people who are descended from his family.

    There may also be other places where the other local legends here are told.

    One of those other legends is that Moctezuma's gold was brought here and buried. The legend says it took them over a week to bury it, and that there were a lot of workers working at it.

    People have been digging for that treasure for a very long time. My wife's grandfather, whose name was **** Martinez Moctezuma, (father's surname / mother's surname) who owned the original Moctezuma land, was asked why he allowed treasure seekers to dig on his land. He said if he didn't they would probably kill him to dig, and besides it was good for the avocado trees to dig around them once in a while. Heh, heh.

    We have a large garbage pit behind our house. Two cousins got drunked up one day and decided that exact location was where the treasure was buried. So, they dug a large hole looking for it. We toss organic garbage in it, and we call it the treasure hole, to the embarrassment of those two men. I told them when it gets full, I will buy them a nice bottle of whiskey so they can dig another. They grin sheepishly.

    My wife said when she was a little girl in the 40's, a man said he knew where the gold was buried, that each generation two men are told, and must swear to kill the other man if he tells where it is. Um, okay, sounds phony to me, but what do I know?

    Now, the current news. Saturday, a young cousin told me an older man had told her that Moctezuma's "tomb" is not far from here. She asked if I knew anything about it. I laughed and asked her if she wanted to explode my brain with statements like that.

    Sunday at church I asked the woman most likely to know such a thing. She said she has never seen it, but her brothers have. She said it is out in the "boonies". She said if asked nicely her brothers would show it to me.

    She said it is not a rock. She described it as a cerito, which may well correspond to the mounds built in Wisconsin and Iowa. For them to think it might be a "tomb" it would have to have a man-made look to it, wouldn't you think?

    Anyway, the legend is that it's where Moctezuma was buried.

    So, if here, why here?

    Darned if I know for sure, since we don't even know if the legend is true. I know there was a fierce Indian tribe not far from here, who supplied safe passage and a safe night's rest for merchants traveling from Oaxaca to Tenochtitlan. The Aztecs only conquered them less than a generation before the Spanish came.

    My wife heard about their ruins when she was a little girl. The local people all knew about it forever and ever, but it was not "discovered" by the scientists and government until a few decades ago, another proof that local legends are not all just tequila doing the talking.

    And, Moctezuma is believed to have built the house here over a spring that never dried until truck farmers drilled a zillion wells to water their plants, and that was a few years ago. He sent out his assistants every so often to take their part of the loot, and if this was done, the Indians could keep running their protection racket.

    This paying of tribute was also part of the local legends, and was later documented by UNAM scholars after the ruins were "found".

    I searched the data base for the Moctezuma family between 1600 and 1700. Most were in Mexico City, which makes sense. Of the several other common locations, this village was in the top third, so it was a common place where family members lived.

    Do other such locations have the same legends? It's hard to tell. So, I do not mean to encourage you to come looking for the treasure. This is all private residential and farm land, and you can't just wander around and dig. If you start acting suspiciously, it takes only one call to INM and they will come and get you and take you away.

    If you did by miracle find a treasure here, it would be a case of which thugs got there first. Criminal thugs with guns, or government official thugs with armed soldiers with guns and legal documents, since all old things belong to the government. No commission; they just take it. If they think you were trying to take it away, you do a lot of really hard time. This is not like going out into the Superstition Mountains far away from mankind where you can dig and poke around.

    Not to mention to what happens if you trespass on my land, heh, heh,

    So, there you have it. Is it true? Who knows? Could be. Probably isn't. (I mean the body and gold buried here probably isn't true, it has been proved that the family was descended from the Moctezuma family.) But, it's interesting to contemplate the possibility that Moctezuma's gold and his body were buried on family land here in Mexico, either in this village or another of his homes, two or three days from Mexico City, and not months away in the USA.

    Let me add I registered here only because of people wishing to place the treasure some place only because they can search there. Funny.

  2. #2
    mx
    Nov 2004
    Alamos,Sonora,Mexico
    10,671
    1437 times

    Re: Mexican Legends on the Treasure of Moctezuma

    Good evening big foot: I enjoyed your post, more would be accepted gratefully.

    Two things, It has been said that the Aztecs came from Aztlan, which curiously enough sounds suspiciously like and fits the description of Atlantis. It has been postulated that they migrated from the middle East to Atlantis, where after it was submerged, they lived in the shallows off the coast of Spain and France, The Place of Reeds.

    From there, they migrated to the new world and eventually down to Mexico. They did not originate in the Western US, contrary to popular stories given out today..

    Azatlan / Atlantis, curiously similar in pronunciation and history.

    Second: You are unfortunately, all too correct on the security / business of older things, such as Tayopa, being claimed as the exclusive right of the gov't. One must be extremely careful if you ever find anything over a hundred years old.

    Perhaps peeps will now understand why Tayopa still sits untouched. Until all permits are in hand, 4, from departments that are in competition with other, it will stay that way..

    Don Jose de La Mancha
    "I exist to live, not live to exist"

  3. #3
    us
    Feb 2006
    New Hampshire - USA
    Fisher CZ21, Teknetics T2 & Minelab Sovereign GT
    2,277
    397 times
    All Types Of Treasure Hunting
    Banner Finds (1)

    Re: Mexican Legends on the Treasure of Moctezuma

    Well written post and quite interesting also Thanks for sharing that with us, and as Real said, any other legends or stories you'd like to tell would have a ready audience here!
    "There is no getting away from a treasure that once fastens upon your mind" - Joseph Conrad (Nostromo)

  4. #4
    mx
    May 2010
    580
    78 times

    Re: Mexican Legends on the Treasure of Moctezuma

    There are other legends, sure. In a place like this, there will be plenty of legends. Not important ones, but legends.

    Also, ancient things.

    For example, in this part of the state (I haven't said which state, you may easily figure it out if you try) there are cliffs with hands painted on them. As high as 20 or more feet. They call them Witches' Hands.

    They look as if someone had put his or her hand on the white rocks, and sprayed around them with reddish-orange paint. So, the hands are actually white framed by color, on white rocks.

    My first thought when I saw it was someone bought a can of spray paint and did it. But, a 58 year old cousin said when he was a little boy, the old people told him when they were kids, the old people told them those hand prints were really old, which was an era when spray paint did not exist.

    The hand prints are real. I believe the legends they are really old, but that doesn't prove the legends of antiquity.

    How did they make paint to last centuries? There is a place Northwest of Puebla which has paintings well over 1,000 years old. And, the paint falls off my house within ten years. Sigh.

    My niece said some years ago she was driven to ancient cliff drawings, within 45 minutes of my house. There is no public knowledge of cliff drawings around here. She has no idea where they were.

    Here is another big legend. One of the legends is Moctezuma had tunnels built for escape. Tunnels perhaps miles long.

    Yes, he had slaves enough to do it. But, here's the problem.

    These mountains, or big hills, I call them mountains, are made of travertine marble. Travertine marble is not a true marble, because it was not baked in a volcano, but they call it that because it has the appearance of marble. Travertine marble is wet by definition because that is how it is formed. A tunnel in this environment would be full of water, and very fast. And, earthquakes every few years would also harm them. So, no, I do not believe there are tunnels in these mountains miles long.

    I do believe there might have been, still might be, a hidden tunnel in the old house, or in the fort a few miles away that the Aztecs conquered a generation before Cortes came. A short one with a well hidden exit in a convenient place that as a last resort could be used as an escape route at the last minute. I will say no one knows where it is, and the locals have had 500 years to snoop around.

    In our part of the state, there are many quarries. People tend to make money by what is available. And, our mountains are rocks, of course. My cistern is at 5740 feet, according to many GPS measurements. In our part of the state, there is a museum of fish fossils. In ancient times, this land was under salt water. As they remove the rock, which is used for facings on buildings, they find excellent fish fossils. The owner of one quarry donates his fossils to a state operated museum.

    Paleontologists come to this part of the state to see the fossils. I think it's mandatory for paleontologists to visit the place, since it is one of the top fossil sites in the world.

    They call the place where the museum is, Cow Foot, because there are animal prints in the rock that look like cow tracks. In modern times, experts have said those tracks are camel tracks. I have never seen them, though I do drive by there often.

    I bought from an old Baptist minister a snail fossil. It is about 5 inches long. He found it walking in the mountains, and needed the money. I paid I think under $10 USD.

    So, is this a place worth visiting? I would say not, though people do at times.

    "Um, okay, what might or might not be camel tracks in the rocks, some fish fossils in rocks, a stupid fossil museum, an old fort, an old fallen-down house, and lots of cactus; some obese women; and exactly one crazy North American who sicked his dogs on us and started throwing rocks as soon as he saw us? (Heh, heh.) I drove this far for this ****?"

    Actually, though I'd probably have to move if North Americans started coming here, it would be good for this community if a bunch of tourists did come here to look things over and wonder if the treasure might be here. The marble business is low right now, since most customers are affluent North Americans who can afford marble things.

    The main problem is North American tourists expect US quality safety programs, and if they get hurt, they expect someone to pay. Poor communities simply are not going to work with that type of conditions. In Mexico, if there is a hole and someone falls in it and gets hurt, they get nothing, because it is assumed you can see a hole in the ground.

    Also, services. Foreign tourists expect McDonalds and nice restrooms. Here, if as I expect "Moctezuma's Tomb" is an hour walk into the boonies, and you need to go to the restroom, you use what Mother Nature provides, period.

    Yet, for tourists to enter private property, owners would have to be paid.

  5. #5
    mx
    May 2010
    580
    78 times

    Re: Mexican Legends on the Treasure of Moctezuma

    Pictures? I can do pictures without photobucket et al? If you are patient, I will do so. But, I am busy so it will be some days.

  6. #6
    us
    Feb 2006
    New Hampshire - USA
    Fisher CZ21, Teknetics T2 & Minelab Sovereign GT
    2,277
    397 times
    All Types Of Treasure Hunting
    Banner Finds (1)

    Re: Mexican Legends on the Treasure of Moctezuma

    In Mexico, if there is a hole and someone falls in it and gets hurt, they get nothing, because it is assumed you can see a hole in the ground.
    Yah, it seems as though Americans are taking less and less personal responsibility anymore. It's always "someone elses fault" even if it's for something as simple as spilling hot coffee on your lap!!

    Any photos you're willing to share would be great - although most of us are "treasure hunters" of one sort or another, we all tend to appreciate good stories, legends and history - photos just make it that much better.
    "There is no getting away from a treasure that once fastens upon your mind" - Joseph Conrad (Nostromo)

  7. #7

    Dec 2005
    Arizona
    5,602
    778 times

    Re: Mexican Legends on the Treasure of Moctezuma

    piegrande,

    The natural assumption would be that you live in Chiapas, but there are many remote places in Mexico that could have such, unadvertised, rock art. Hands were a popular theme in prehistory artwork.

    Were there other figures on the cliff as well? Are the hands red?

    Welcome to TreasureNet!

    Joe Ribaudo

  8. #8
    mx
    Nov 2004
    Alamos,Sonora,Mexico
    10,671
    1437 times

    Re: Mexican Legends on the Treasure of Moctezuma

    HI big foot: Between here and Chinapas, to the south of the main mule trail, there is a high cliff with a sloughed off area forming a tall, long, shallow cave. When I was there in the 50's, someone had cut and painted the prints of every living thing in the area, life size. It was estimated at the time of the first Spanish, since the unknown author, an Indian, had recorded Horse prints.

    Included were human foot prints, and next to them, other prints perhaps twice as large, or larger, as todays human prints are. When I asked the Indian with me "who where they"? He merely shrugged, and said "Los Gigantes", the giants.

    When I questioned him further, he said "they were about 9-10 ft tall, and that his father had killed the last one around 1900. When I asked him "why" he merely shrugged again and said "it seemed like a good idea at the time"??

    He said that they were were red haired, slow moving, and rather stupid, but not too aggressive. One of their burial cave zones lies just north east of here, about one days ride by mule.
    __________________________________________________ _______________________________

    Then there was the time that I backpacked alone into the Sierra Encantado in northern baja Calif to a very remote canyon that had supported a fairly large group for those times. There were paintings and fragments of pottery everywhere.

    It was a unique experience realizing that prob no-one had been there for hundreds, possibly thousands of years.

    There was plentiful water , small game, a few deer and edible plant life. At night I would sit at my camp fire, it never was lonely, as the spirits of the departed could been seen dancing and moving in the shadows. I felt as if I had been accepted into their family group. Any of my fellow explorers will understand exactly what I felt.

    I have never reported this lonely, hidden canyon, so far as I know it is still as I left it. I had carefully cleaned up any evidence of my being there, and I had tried not to disturb any of their things, anymore than necessary. After examining things, I carefully returned them to their original place and configuration.

    Your turn big foot.

    Don Jose de La Mancha
    "I exist to live, not live to exist"

  9. #9
    mx
    May 2010
    580
    78 times

    Re: Mexican Legends on the Treasure of Moctezuma

    With some luck, here will be a photo of part of the ruins of the house once owned by the Moctezuma family, and documented to exist in the 1700's. Legend says it was there in the lifetime of Moctezuma, but that is not proved at this point in time.

    It is not the best picture. More will follow as I get them.

    My wife said in the 50's when she lived in there, the rooms closest to us already lost their roofs. Her room was down the house from the camera. I wonder how those rocks stay up at all, without concrete, not to mention 300 years. I will ask our cousin.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Click image for larger version. 

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  10. #10
    mx
    May 2010
    580
    78 times

    Re: Mexican Legends on the Treasure of Moctezuma

    Here are one small group of witches hands, in a place called Axamilpa. There is no there, there. No signs, nothing. One has to know where they are. The cliff is close to the highway, and one just walks up from the pavement. There are hands as high as 20 feet up, a straight cliff, but I could not take a picture up there.

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  11. #11
    mx
    Nov 2004
    Alamos,Sonora,Mexico
    10,671
    1437 times

    Re: Mexican Legends on the Treasure of Moctezuma

    Gracias big foot. Nicely done. Incidentally, I gather that you aren't a spring chicken 'either', although I am only entering my third childhood myself.

    Don Jose de La Mancha
    "I exist to live, not live to exist"

  12. #12
    mx
    May 2010
    580
    78 times

    Re: Mexican Legends on the Treasure of Moctezuma

    I am 68. I am married to a much older woman. Fifty eight days.

    I was heavy, finally realized I was moving fast toward diabetes, and perhaps heart trouble.

    My daughter loaned me a book on the Atkins Diet, and while I still have too much weight, I am down almost 30 pounds from my peak.

    However, weight is not the problem. Atkins made the diet to clean up the veins and arteries, and to head off diabetes and infarctions.

    My b.p. has gone down until last week it was 100/63 one morning. My veins and arteries are indeed clean, but I can't explain all the proofs here . Life in rural Mexico is good for me. An acquaintance moved to China; lost weight; his angina went away; and he takes no more meds.


  13. #13
    mx
    Nov 2004
    Alamos,Sonora,Mexico
    10,671
    1437 times

    Re: Mexican Legends on the Treasure of Moctezuma

    simply diet, my friend, mental and physical, keep it up.

    Don Jose de La Mancha
    "I exist to live, not live to exist"

  14. #14
    mx
    May 2010
    580
    78 times

    Re: Mexican Legends on the Treasure of Moctezuma

    Thanks for encouragement.

    There are several types of expats. I am one of the type who does not want to live around other Americans. I love the Mexican people, and I love this community, mostly because of the people here. I have more friends here than anywhere in the world. The country people, the minute they realize you respect them, are very friendly.

    Third World villages are not everyone's cup of tea.

    One factor here (let me know if off-topic is forbidden) is something the founders of the U.S. Constitution wrote about.

    They called it effeminate luxury, a term which is used in Volume I of the Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire. When men, not sure about women, live in luxury and comfort, they tend to become effeminate. Seen any signs of this where you are?

    Life is more work and less comfort here, and I do feel much more like a man. My testosterone level is clearly way up at an age where it is more likely to be nonexistent.

    I am sure many of you observe this when you are off on a treasure hunting expedition, such as those who have posted about traveling in the Superstition Mountains. If you didn't fully understand why that hunt in the boonies feels so good, it is more than the exercise and clean air involved.

    Cost of living here is modest, but no one who comes to Mexico to save money will stay long. If you can't adapt to the culture, the diet, the life, you will soon leave.

    I have more pictures of the old house built by the Moctezuma family. Will post as I get them processed. Not too many; just enough to show what the house looks like.

    I am really anxious to see "Moctezuma's Tomb" as you can imagine. The hot weather is April and May. It got up to 97 or 98 yesterday, which is very hot in a place where people aren't used to it. No one wants to go for long walks in this heat, unless you can get in and get out by noon at the latest.

  15. #15

    Dec 2005
    Arizona
    5,602
    778 times

    Re: Mexican Legends on the Treasure of Moctezuma

    pg,

    You must be correct, as the majority of our Congress and Senate agree with you. It would seem that most of those in charge think the same way. We can only hope that you will get in touch with them all, extolling the virtues and benefits of living in Mexico, and they will all decide to join you.

    Good luck,

    Joe Ribaudo


 

 
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