Moctezumas Tomb

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Re: Moctezuma's Tomb

Fascinating my friend. keep posting. Incidentally the building that you show in # 1702 was prob used in the firearm period since that type of window was used for firing, giving max view and firing angle, while also giving max protection to the shooter. Yes, it could also be used for a crossbow firing position.

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

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[piegrande]

Re: Moctezuma's Tomb

That is an interesting possibility. I think some locals thought by the shape it had originally been a church, in which case the hole there might be for sunlight on the altar in the morning.

There were no signs inside of any structure near that hole for the soldiers to stand on, though if it were separate and made of wood, there would be no sign if the soldiers burned the wood for fires or some such thing.

The floor was dirt, obviously, with trees growing up out of it.

The only disrupted places were the nest of honey bees over the hole, inside.

And, about where an altar would have been, if it indeed were a church, there was a depression in the ground, as if a hole had been dug for unknown reasons.

I did not pay as much attention to the building as I probably should have. I was looking for 1521, and it was 19th Century. How does that go? "Mea culpa; mea culpa; mea maxima culpa."

I didn't even verify the mortar used to mate the stone. It obviously is good, because to have solid walls even after 100 years without maintenance and at times have earthquakes, means it was somewhat well built.

My wife came back from Mexico (what they call Mexico City out in the boonies) last night. She theorizes maybe the meat seller actually put his sheep in there at night, it is big enough.

Next visit, measure the building and ascertain the mortar used in the walls. Not sure if I want to risk digging in that hole for social and legal reasons. I have a good rapport and good reputation here with people even living some distance out. I have gone to the fields looking for someone to take pictures for his sons in the States, and this is well known to the degree that women alone showed no fear at all when I drove up. It helps that I am the only adult North American in a 750 square mile area, I guess, and my free family photo work also is well known.

Anyway, I don't want to lose that.

 

[Cubfan64]

Re: Moctezuma's Tomb

Anyway, I don't want to lose that.

I probably wouldn't risk it if I were you - nothing's really worth making alot of enemies where you live.

By the way, photo 1709, I can easily envision the "hole" being a doorway or other entrance of some kind - pretty interesting area you live in.

 

[piegrande]

Re: Moctezuma's Tomb

My guide also thinks it's a door, but in the building I think is under that, it would be 10 or 15 feet off the ground. So, it is hard to tell. There are more unanswered questions than known things.

 

[piegrande]

Re: Moctezuma's Tomb

Just back from three weeks in the States.

I just realized I forgot to post the rest of my 'research'.

Before we went North, a cousin offered to take us to an ancient indigenous fort, which is a registered ruin, and is on the tourist list, though not many come here. They do have a day-time guard, and it is alleged he makes good money. It is about an hour drive from the Tomb, but it is a common recreational trip for folks here. This was my fourth visit, I think.

I really wanted to see the mortar in the walls in the old fort, and there are many walls. This fort was known to be in use in 1503, when it was finally conquered by the Aztecs, and from then they paid tribute every year, to Moctezuma. (Legend again, with some supporting academic evidence.)

The mortar was definitely soft, and may have been the tepetate mentioned earlier. But, the mortar in the Tomb was not soft, but as hard as concrete, more or less.

However, the plot thickens. As we walked around the fort site, I spotted a strange piece of something, not a rock at all, looked more like a piece of concrete, but had layers around half an inch thick, total thickness maybe 2 or 3 inches. Overall, it was around a meter across, irregular shaped, and was propped up against some stones. I asked what on earth that was.

Cousin said it was sort of ancient concrete thingie, made of large grains of sand, here they would call them little rocks, such as are usually found around the ant hills here. There were some within a few yards. He said the ancients mixed this large sand with sap of Nopal cactus and milk to make a solid material, like what we would call concrete. I asked lots of questions, and his comments were all based on something he read as a boy.

On the way out, they went searching outside the fort reserve area for herbs they wanted, while I goofed off under a tree. When he came back he had a piece of the material, approximately hand size, he found it in the field. It had only two visible layers, otherwise felt like a rock. It is obviously man made, due to the distinct layers, just like the big piece we saw.

It was okay to take, because it was not in the reserve, that could have got us jail time.

After my own research online, and lots of thinking and studying that piece. I came to a theory. Are you surprised?

I found a page which said adding nopal sap to concrete increased strength (oops, or was it hardness??) by up to 56%. But, no where can I find any source which says nopal sap alone can make concrete.

My theory is, the 'concrete' is made with cal (the quicklime they had at the time) with nopal added for strength.

And, frankly, the mortar on the Tomb feels more like that 'concrete' than the soft mortar used in the fort, which you can dig out with your fingers.

I expect it takes more work to produce a mortar with the ant sand particles than with soft rock powder.

So, why did they use the more 'expensive' mortar on what I theorized was nothing but an observation tower, and on the fort buildings, use soft rock powder? The plot thickens, does it not?

As always, when I visit the Tomb, I go away and later come up with another question.

There is a place on that wall of the Tomb where it is broken, and some rocks have fallen. I need to examine that closely and see if I can obtain any more information on the mortar. Does it have ant-sand, or something else?

Pictures if I still have them after this delay.

By the way, y'all seem to enjoy my tales, at least some of you. If they become objectionable for any board regulations reason, let me know. I also enjoy reporting the interesting things I find, but do not want to offend anyone. I especially enjoy the quality reproduction of the pictures I post.

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Re: Moctezuma's Tomb

good morning my friend: While on the trail to the lost Jesuit mine, La Gloria Pan, I found a square built, concrete canal that was buried under the alluvial fan from a large arroyo. Most was under 10 ft. of rocks and sand, but where it was exposed it was almost untouched by the arroyo action of rolling rocks of various sizes. When I tried to chip off a piece for later examination I was almost unable to do so. Hard, sheesh. Incidentally, no - one knows where the canal started, where it ended up, or who built it. It was about 1 meter wide and perhaps 250 + mm deep.

Later in Alamos I showed the piece to a chemical Engineer that was visiting the Town.. He examined it carefully with his loupe, then said it was a remarkable example of concrete enginering. He said that every batch of concrete that his company made, was slightly different, even when they apparently used the same components and ratios. As a result they had to test each batch if it was to be used for critical work - also the Eng's on the site would perform their own tests..

So you data falls right into the pattern.

Incidentally, they also used animal blood as a cement for floors. Once set up it was almost indestructible.

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[piegrande]

Re: Moctezuma's Tomb

Blood for cement? That is a new one.

We did use what seemed to be blood for the foam tanks on the big Crash Rescue trucks at Gray Airbase, Ft. Lewis Washington, when I was in the Army in the 60's.

Today, my gorgeous niece asked me if I would take her to Moctezuma's Tomb today. She is home for the one day, has to go back tomorrow early. This is the one with the degree in tourism.

Since I had the new question on the mortar used on the wall piece, I was more than happy to go. She and her sister and kid brother went, and we drove as far as we could, then walked the rest of the way.

I got a good look at the broken piece. There is a very thin layer, I can't estimate too well, but I'd say like 1/16 inch, of really hard material on top, and behind it, it is indeed soft, it's what they call white dirt. The same material used as mortar on the old Moctezuma house.

I have no idea at all how they made that very hard, very thin layer, unless they laid on cal (quicklime) based revoco (stucco). But, that is not normally that thin.

Anyway, at this time, that is the answer, a very thin, very hard layer, soft dirt underneath.

 

[piegrande]

Re: Moctezuma's Tomb

I encountered another man who knows about the mound. He says it is not the Tomb Of Moctezuma, but the Tetele of Moctezuma, which as far as I can tell means Moctezuma's Mound. Not sure if it is important, but it is a difference from what others have said.

 

[cactusjumper]

Re: Moctezuma's Tomb

PG,

Blood was often used in concrete.......back in Don Jose's day.

Here's something on your Nopal:

http://www.jpacd.org/V10/V10P120-125.pdf

Merry Christmas!

Joe

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Re: Moctezuma's Tomb

Morning steak provider: Have you ever tried to clean up old blood? An impervious binder. In those days a cows hide was worth more than the meat. Besides most mission floor areas were not very large, I suppose that 4 - 5 cows would provide enough blood. As to it's actual wearing quality, ?? I suppose that it would be no big matter to use the blood of the periodically slaughtered animals to replenish it if needed.

Don Jose de La Mancha

"I exist to Live, not live to exist".

 

[wilkes]

I have been reading this on the edge of my seat.. These sorts of finds fascinate me! Any updates?

 

[cactusjumper]

I encountered another man who knows about the mound. He says it is not the Tomb Of Moctezuma, but the Tetele of Moctezuma, which as far as I can tell means Moctezuma's Mound. Not sure if it is important, but it is a difference from what others have said.

PG,
The word "tetela" is derived from the Nahuatl word for "rocky place", (Tetellan). Tetela is actually the name of an old city in Mexico that was inhabited by Toltec Xochimilcas'. The Aztec glyph for the name of the city is composed of "tetelli", which means rocks, and "tlan" which means teeth.

What is also interesting is that the Greek word "Tetelesti, or Tetelestai" means "It is finished", which fits well for Moctezuma's final resting place.

All information found on the Internet.

Joe Ribaudo

 

[piegrande]

I had hoped when I returned to the States this year to buy a Deep Seeker, but other expenses have rendered this less than practical. Maybe next year.

 

[Mr bigshot]

Great story, and fascinating history. Keep us all informed will you?

 

[piegrande]

Absolutely, but things in this project will by its very nature be snail paced. I had hoped to return with a deep seeker, but the money just was not right.