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  1. #16

    Mar 2008
    133
    2 times

    Re: Cibola and Santa Fe have the same location

    Jerome,

    I would like to here more about what you have to say and view some of the pictures.

    Minetres

  2. #17
    mx
    Nov 2004
    Alamos,Sonora,Mexico
    11,197
    2335 times

    Re: Cibola and Santa Fe have the same location

    Jerome, Minetres, Moon, Magoo: Join me while we discuss this.

    I uncovered evidence that 'cannot be proven', however in the early days, the King Of Spain had no idea of what he had. He needed it explored by competent explorers.

    To do this by himself would cost too much, so his ministers came up with the idea of embellishing a story about the 7 Ciudades de Cibola.

    There is a series of 7 villages etc in a large remote, off travel Barranca in the eastern borders of the present Snail, extremely rough terrain, still basically uniknown today. They apparently worshiped the Buffalo, since many, figures and drawings of them are to be found there, yet no Buffalo are known to have been in that that area.

    The only way they could have known of the Buffalo was from second hand information - part of the migration path of the Aztecs?

    They also found large deposits of iron pyrites stored there. Evidence suggests that they mixed them with the external coating of their homes with it, possibly for beauty, as well as possible reflective insulation. The effect would be that from a distance, they would appear to have homes made of gold.

    Estaban on his journey south could quite possibly have passed near by them and saw the houses 'built of gold' and later reported this the Ones that rescued him.

    This was ideal for the king, he let the story be leaked, then graciously allowed various explorations be made up with a charter to give the King part of what they found, and to have Royal Representatives with them to record the country encountered in their travels.

    They had no problems equipping these expensive expeditions see -- from --> Full text of "A journal of American ethnology and archæology;"

    at --> http://www.archive.org/stream/ajourn...egoog_djvu.txt

    Quote -- "that Mexico was then so poorly supplied with colonists, that any at- tempt to draw them towards another section of America was regarded as dangerous to the existence of the colony ; hence, that that colony afforded but a trembling staff to European domination. On the other hand, it proves that even among the scanty population of Europeans there was a crowd ready to engage in anything, provided it was new and striking. In other words, circumstances then were just as they have been in the Southwest but lately. As soon as anything new \& discovered, everybody rushes for it. With such a class of men, re- ports like those of Fray Marcos fell on fertile soil. The viceroy encouraged Coronado's expedition by all possible means. His main object was to eliminate from Mexico elements unfavorable to a steady progress of the country. He was afraid that if a leaven of a certain kind was left it would produce a fermentation detrimental to the interests of Spain and of civilization in general; for it should not be forgotten that Spain cherished then the same exalted ideas about its duties as the banner-bearer of progress as every other nation, including the American, has since.
    overreaching, and the startling information secured by Fray Marcos and its effects upon the mind of the public did not escape his notice. He secretly caused an agitation in favor of the ^^ newly discovered country," in order to get rid of people who were a nuisance in New Spain, and with the faintest of all hopes that they might, perhaps, prosper in the far distant North."

    So where were the elusive 7 Ciudades de Cibola? North, which was explored, or to the hidden barranca de Conijaqui in Sinaloa, which was quite possibly on Estavan's journey, and not explored.

    Don Jose de La Mancha .

    "I exist to live, not live to exist"

  3. #18
    Charter Member

    Dec 2005
    Arizona
    5,756
    989 times

    Re: Cibola and Santa Fe have the same location

    Don Jose,

    "So where were the elusive 7 Ciudades de Cibola? North, which was explored, or to the hidden barranca de Conijaqui in Snail, which was quite possibly on Estavan's journey, and not explored."

    Possibly in a great inland sea that would be included in what is, today, The White Sands Proving Grounds in New Mexico.

    My guess is that the Aztecs left from there and followed the Gila River to the Colorado. From there, they went south. They left in groups over the years, and those earlier Aztecs established restocking villages all along the Gila for those who followed.

    Just another theory,

    Joe

  4. #19
    mx
    Nov 2004
    Alamos,Sonora,Mexico
    11,197
    2335 times

    Re: Cibola and Santa Fe have the same location

    Evening Joe You posted --> Possibly in a great inland sea that would be included in what is, today, The White Sands Proving Grounds in New Mexico.

    ****************
    When is the suggested time frame of this sea?
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    You also posted -->My guess is that the Aztecs left from there and followed the Gila River to the Colorado. From there, they went south. They left in groups over the years, and those earlier Aztecs established restocking villages all along the Gila for those who followed.

    *******************
    Absolutely no argument there Joe.

    Where was Aztlan?

    Don Jose de La Mancha
    "I exist to live, not live to exist"

  5. #20
    mx
    Nov 2004
    Alamos,Sonora,Mexico
    11,197
    2335 times

    Re: Cibola and Santa Fe have the same location

    Sorry, I forgot to add the reference for that post

    -->http://www.archive.org/stream/ajourn...egoog_djvu.txt


    Fascinating book, free go read it.

    Don Jose de La Mancha
    "I exist to live, not live to exist"

  6. #21
    Charter Member

    Dec 2005
    Arizona
    5,756
    989 times

    Re: Cibola and Santa Fe have the same location

    Don Jose,

    Millions of years ago, all of that area of New Mexico was covered by a shallow inland sea. Eventually it went dry, and probably stayed that way until the end of the last Ice Age. That would have been a little over 10,000 years ago. At that time, another large area remained a lake. I don't know, off hand, when it dried up.

    At the end of that Ice Age, Folsom Man would have been moving into New Mexico. Who knows if they actually died out or were just absorbed by the people that followed them into the area.

    To my way of thinking, there are a number of similarities between those early people and the Aztec.

    Take care,

    Joe

  7. #22
    Charter Member

    Dec 2005
    Arizona
    5,756
    989 times

    Re: Cibola and Santa Fe have the same location

    Don Jose,

    Who knows exactly when the Aztec people began to leave the seven caves of Chicomoztoc. Were they, initially, north of Mexico? There is a legend of seven caves in South America. I believe they are all on one mountain or volcano. Read "Valverde's Gold".

    Their arrival in Mexico could have taken many centuries.....start to finish. It's a fascinating story to contemplate.

    Take care,

    Joe

  8. #23

    Dec 2007
    90

    Re: Cibola and Santa Fe have the same location

    Not to butt in gentlemen, but I think what they mean by the great inland sea is actually the Great Salt Lake right here in Utah. Its much larger than any other lake in the western states and yes there are what I believe are carved stone monuements not necessarily spanish in origin but much older here. The Plumber.

  9. #24
    Charter Member

    Dec 2005
    Arizona
    5,756
    989 times

    Re: Cibola and Santa Fe have the same location

    CMP,

    It's pretty well known that prior to the last Ice Age, Southern New Mexico was a great inland sea. After the ice receded, there was a vast flooded area again. Eventually it dried up and became what we, pretty much, see today.

    You are correct about Utah, but because of the Folsom people, that area does not fit with my wild theories. Therefore, it's out.

    Take care,

    Joe

  10. #25
    mx
    Nov 2004
    Alamos,Sonora,Mexico
    11,197
    2335 times

    Re: Cibola and Santa Fe have the same location

    good morning Ladies gentlemen: The story of the origin and subsequent migration of the Aztecs is interesting. It is a journey that I started for fun and mild curiosity, but, as it developed, a relatively clear path of their migration evolved.

    They are probably one of the lost tribes of Israel, and migrated their way across the Mediterranean to the shallows off of the coast of Spain, the remnants of Atlantis, from which they eventually derived the name Aztlan. Isn't this a striking coincidence of natural modification of a name??

    Yes, it did actually exist, and it's tentative location is known. It was composed of a giant caldera of three rings situated on the apex of three plates, the North American , African and Asian , probably one of the most active seismic regions in the world and can easily explain the violence that sank it. It now lies approx 12,000 ft under the surface of the Atlantic. The Azores are probably the southern extension of the group.

    'The recent findings of the oil Co. explorations of finding a land mass with rivers between Scotland and Norway at that depth, suggests further that this is a distinct possibility, and the 'plume factor' explains almost exactly how Atlantis was originally formed and it's shape as described in ancient texts, a giant, three ringed Caldera as large as Spain. The texts also mention the shallows off of the coast of Spain which was covered in many places with " REEDS", the place of the Aztecs migration to North America'.

    They stayed at Aztlan, the place of the reeds , Herons, etc. for a long period, then migrated to North America, across the present United Statees, to Arizona.

    Eventually they again moved southward to present Mexico city where they finally became strong enough to establish the Aztec empire.

    I found that I was not unique in framing this odyssey, see accompanying Map which was recently posted to me. Notice the interesting appearance of Hebrew words in the various places of their odyssey.

    This map is almost identical to the one that I developed, with the exception of their history of Aztlan. Aztlan is 'not' on the North American continent.

    Don Jose de La Mancha

    p.s. I cannot find my reference to the map, can one of you give the proper credit for it?
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Click image for larger version. 

Name:	Map_pre-viking.jpg 
Views:	401 
Size:	47.5 KB 
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    "I exist to live, not live to exist"

  11. #26

    Dec 2007
    90

    Re: Cibola and Santa Fe have the same location

    Excuse me once again as the LDS people here in Utah have tried to prove it was, " Their people who came over here and populated the land, but there is no DNA link between the Hebrew people and the indiginess people of South and Latin America of today. Further more the Ice Age is to far back to even be a part of that speaking of an inland sea in New Mexico and not to put to fine a point on it we have herons, pelicans and caves out the wazu here in Utah. Oh I forgot we have lots of reeds on the eastern shore of the Great Salt Lake as well. Rummor has it we even have Bigfoots here maybe I'll bag one while I'm out Elk hunting in two weeks. The Plumber.

  12. #27
    mx
    Nov 2004
    Alamos,Sonora,Mexico
    11,197
    2335 times

    Re: Cibola and Santa Fe have the same location

    Really plumber?? Fascinating.

    Don Jose de La Mancha
    "I exist to live, not live to exist"

  13. #28
    mx
    May 2010
    637
    98 times

    Re: Cibola and Santa Fe have the same location

    I have to vote with the Plumber on this one. I had my y-marker test done a few years ago, and even came up with a computer model for mutations so I could understand it. It turns out y-marker tests are virtually useless for genealogy, but the data allows for human migration studies.

    Tests on Mexican folks in Colorado show that 2/3 of male ancestry of Mexicans is from the Iberian Peninsula, and 2/3 of female ancestry is indigenous.

    The Irish came from Spain, around 5-10,000 years ago, not from Celts. So, I actually have the same haplotype as most of my Mexican neighbors. R?, and the Indigenous are Q?

    Human migration can be very interesting. For example, back in the 50's in school, we were told the Neolithics came into Europe, and took over because of their agriculture. Tombs of Neolithics have been discovered, their DNA tested, and it turns out almost no one in Europe today is descended from them. They came in, taught agriculture, then died out.

    Roanoke, and Sir Walter Raleigh, the mystery what happened to the settlers? The Lumbee Indian tribe are the descendants of the Croatons, and some of them show matches with descendants of family members who did not come to Roanoke Island. Thus proving those settlers did indeed join the Croatons.

    So, LDS DNA testing would indeed prove the Aztecs could not have possibly come from the Hebrews, only a few thousand years ago. Not possible, sorry.

    The best evidence I have seen indicates the Aztecs may have indeed come from the Utah area.

    by the way, they did not wander aimlessly until they saw the snake eaten by an eagle. They actually stopped in the city of Tula east and north of Mexico City, for at least a generation. Their written records showed this fact. Then, eventually they wandered on to the valley of Mexico.

    As far as the lake down near NM, scientists are starting to admit what any farm kid from my generation could tell them at a glance at the Grand Canyon. It was not formed over millions of years, but in a few months, when a gigantic lake formed by the melting of the snow of the Ice Age, broke loose. This is a theory but not a wild theory, a few years ago it was even printed in National Geographic. Just look at photos of the GC, and think, think, think, and you will see how impossible the millions of year theory is.

    And, in Canada, a trail of rare chemicals from another lake was found all the way to the ocean when that lake broke loose. Also in Nat'l Geog.

 

 
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