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  1. #1
    mx
    May 2010
    595
    83 times

    Aztec connections to Toltecs via Tula

    I ordered a book, MOCTEZUMA'S CHILDREN, by Donald E. Chipman, who I suspect has a Dr. in front of his name for academic reasons. One of his graduate students did a thesis on the descendants of Moctezuma II (Montezuma in the US.)

    She died, and he obtained permission to use her thesis in this book. I had Amazon send it to our daughter's house in Texas and my wife brought it back on her latest trip to visit her grandson.

    But, a comment about the history of the Aztecs is what I want to write about here. There seem to be so many opinions by so-called experts that it is hard to sort it out.

    This book says that Tula, North east of Mexico City, was inhabited by Toltecs prior to the arrival of the Aztecs from whence they came. The population of Tula had dropped considerably. The Aztecs came there, and did a lot of building, allegedly lived there for around 20 years. They decided to leave; one must wonder if this had to do with ripping the hearts out of living people, but what do I know?

    They allegedly tore up a lot of their building, then moved into the Valley of Mexico.

    There was some intermarriage by nobility with the Toltec population, and this occurred well into the era of Cortes, several centuries later. Those tribes used intermarriage with other tribes as a way of accumulating power, or so they hoped. Emperors may have had hundreds of "wives" from every surrounding culture and tribe, though most were lesser wives.

    So, if this man knows what he is talking about, there were documented intermarriages but the Aztecs were not Toltec as such.

    I have obtained the recently released by the LDS, 1930 census for my state. I was looking up Moctezuma's, and found an entire town where the original census dummies screwed up the papers. The officials would take out a certain number of forms, with room on each one for up to 50 names. First in line, they would put up the name, age, occupation, etc., of the family head, then other members, including lodgers and all.

    In the case of one Moctezuma family, they messed up the order of the pages of a whole community when stamping the page number.

    So, the computer took the last 4 names from the previous town, and concatenated them to the front of the 5 Moctezuma kids, on secondary search. Looking at the actual images, which are available, I discovered another page, way back in the heap, with a mother and father Moctezuma, and one child. I theorized the other family was actually the beginning of the family of the kids. The good news is the youngest child is still alive today. So, a friend went and talked to her, and that was indeed her parents and older sister on the isolated page.

    She also told her grandparents name, but we can't find the grandfather on the search function at all.

    My concern is to get this error documented for future genealogists. We can still talk to the woman, but in the future, this will be lost. I suppose I need to get on a LDS forum and ask how to document it permanently.

    Also, a cousin of my wife's says he has a book which claims the niece of Moctezuma married the cacique of this community in 1520. That would certainly put the family of Moctezuma in this community!

  2. #2
    us
    Jan 2010
    Jacksonville, AR
    Whites Eagle Spectrum
    94
    1 times

    Re: Aztec connections to Toltecs via Tula

    Would this put the Moctezuma in the U.S.? Maybe in the Arkansas area?

  3. #3
    mx
    May 2010
    595
    83 times

    Re: Aztec connections to Toltecs via Tula

    Quote Originally Posted by dirty_digger
    Would this put the Moctezuma in the U.S.? Maybe in the Arkansas area?
    I don't fully understand the question, unless you want to know if there is a possibility Moctezuma's body or treasure might have been taken to the Arkansas area.

    While my opinion is not especially valuable, I do not for a heartbeat believe either Moctezuma's body or his treasure, if it existed, went North outside the Aztec controlled area. I base this on the circumstances of the time, and the logistics involved to do such a thing.

    And, the educated Mexicans I know, laugh at the thought they walked weeks or months through hostile territory and terrain with his body or large quantities of gold. There were too many good places to dispose of both items, well within Aztec territory.

    I happen to think having a hobby of looking for treasure, even in places where it cannot be, is far better than many things people do with their spare time. However, the only reason for thinking his body or treasure could be within the continental USA is because it is more practical to look in Arkansas or Arizona, heh, heh, than deal with the hassles of looking where it might actually be, and with the same odds of success.

    Have you read the other thread where I report on local legends here in the mountains of Mexico, involving known land connections with the family of Moctezuma? Most of those legends have been found to be more or less true, leaving as unknown the status of the two remaining legends, that his body and treasure are here near where I live. Those are probably not true, though they are within the realm of possible for a variety of reasons.

  4. #4
    mx
    May 2010
    595
    83 times

    Re: Aztec connections to Toltecs via Tula

    If you mean is it possible that descendants of the Moctezuma family, which included as best as I can tell all the Aztec Emporer's, could be living in Arkansas, yes, absolutely. Here no one pays much attention to the Moctezuma surname. The only important Moctezuma's are the nobility living in Spain.

  5. #5
    us
    Jan 2010
    Jacksonville, AR
    Whites Eagle Spectrum
    94
    1 times

    Re: Aztec connections to Toltecs via Tula

    It was just a general question really. I just moved to Arkansas and know that they have Toltec Mounds built by the Toltec people many moons ago. I know some people theorize that the ancient people of South America would have taken to this area via the gulf and up the Mississippi River. Maybe to "outrun" the Spanish or to conquer new lands. This sure ain't my area of expertise (if I even have one) but I'm always up for a good story or learning something new.

  6. #6
    mx
    May 2010
    595
    83 times

    Re: Aztec connections to Toltecs via Tula

    I had not heard of Toltec mounds in Arkansas. I need to look that up. I have no knowledge of Toltecs in Arkansas.

    My comments were limited to the idea of Moctezuma being there, and that is extremely unlikely.

    Thanks for tip on that.

  7. #7
    mx
    May 2010
    595
    83 times

    Re: Aztec connections to Toltecs via Tula

    A quick Google found an information page on the parks called Toltec, and indicated the builders are not known. A wild guess brought the name Toltec into it, since no one closer was known to build mounds like the Toltecs. But, later study shows there is no evidence the Toltecs actually came there.

    If you find a good link which insists it really was Toltecs, feel free to share.

  8. #8
    us
    Jan 2010
    Jacksonville, AR
    Whites Eagle Spectrum
    94
    1 times

    Re: Aztec connections to Toltecs via Tula

    I sure will keep that in mind. But I have some friends that know a lot more about the ancient people and where they came from. Maybe they will know more. You have a PM coming relating to another story.

  9. #9
    mx
    May 2010
    595
    83 times

    Re: Aztec connections to Toltecs via Tula

    Got PM. As far as Toltecs, I know nothing personally. I do know there are almost as many opinions on such things as there are experts. Some of those opinions came from old codexes (?) which were taken from ancient books. There is some evidence the Aztecs tried to burn the history of other tribes, so they could make up their own history, and wanted to make folks believe they were Toltecs.

  10. #10
    mx
    Nov 2004
    Alamos,Sonora,Mexico
    10,838
    1669 times

    Re: Aztec connections to Toltecs via Tula

    HLLA pie grande: ?? no more posts or did you get caught in the narco wars?

    Don Jose de La Mancha
    "I exist to live, not live to exist"

  11. #11
    mx
    May 2010
    595
    83 times

    Re: Aztec connections to Toltecs via Tula

    Still kicking here. My wife took the bus back a couple weeks ago to be with her little grandson. She misses him when she is here.

    I told her, hey, we can work out some agreement, and you can stay back there with him all the time. She responded, "Grrr! Grrr!"

    No, I had an identity coin I wanted to post on another thread. My scanner labels the files jpeg, and I forgot to change it. So, the software here rejected it, even though jpeg is a valid version of jpg. I changed it, and the software keeps saying it is a duplicate posting. I tried re-writing it, and it still recognized it. I can understand the moderators do not want a lot of double postings, but if a posting is rejected for some reason, intelligent software will not record it as already posted.

    I have better things to do than fight stupid forum software. So, I have shifted for now to other activities. I had an "old" photo, of a deceased kin of my wife, actually only about 1939 or so. To me, anything newer than around 1910 isn't really old. It was framed and too big for the scanner, so I took four "bites" at it. I have some Linux software, Hugin, which is supposed to "stitch" it into one photo. I am having trouble getting it to work, I assume start up stupidity on my part.

    I will be back. TN just has too many interesting things on it, as you well know.

  12. #12
    mx
    Nov 2004
    Alamos,Sonora,Mexico
    10,838
    1669 times

    Re: Aztec connections to Toltecs via Tula

    G R U D I N G L Y forgiven.


    Don Jose de La Mancha
    "I exist to live, not live to exist"

  13. #13
    us
    "John Holmes Jr."

    Nov 2011
    French Gulch, North Calif.
    "WHITES" GOLDMASTER "GMT" & "TESORO GOLDEN SABRE II" with silent search.
    520
    28 times
    Metal Detecting

    Re: Aztec connections to Toltecs via Tula

    Did you know the toltecs were known canabals who sharpened their teeth like dogs and ate their way thru Mexico and ended up in New Mexico. The locals of New Mexico built their homes high in caves in mountian sides and made a rule... never go out after night! On TV "the history channel" they discovered thousands & Thousands of human bones all cut 5 inches with black polished ends, a mystery till they found these Human Bones were black from being burned when cooked in clay pots, that is why all the same 5 inches to fit in the pots. To keep the Mexican Kids from going out at night or run away, the parents told them Monsters will get them called Chupa-Cabra! That is where the myth started up to today. Peace.
    GOLD IS WHERE YOU FIND IT.. IT CAN HIDE BUT WHEN REAL IT DON'T LIE!
    My Mama Never raised No Fool... I Was Adopted!

  14. #14
    mx
    May 2010
    595
    83 times

    Re: Aztec connections to Toltecs via Tula

    I Googled and found sources which say that. As is too often the case, though, there are the experts who disagree. So, clearly having no knowledge at any level, I cannot say yea or nay. Still, it is interesting to read the information. Thanks.

 

 

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