distribuidorUSA
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- Dec 11, 2012
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Not where I was born.now I will take all the coffe you want.I will relax a little.
Aztec Trasure located already?
- Thread starter distribuidorUSA
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Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp
Gold Member
North Western Mexico has lots, wanna talk? Tayopa has miles of top Au, Pt, & Ag placers.
Do Jose de La Mancha
Do Jose de La Mancha
distribuidorUSA
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- Dec 11, 2012
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By what I heard.sonora and chihuahua are rich.basicly the whole mountain range that comes from Alaska and ends in tierra del fuego is rich.the difference is that the region I come from I know it like my own hands.and I know the people.it is more of an opportunity to bring jobs to to this forgotten corner.I have no doubts you have good areas and I really wish you good luck Tayopa.for now I will concentrate more on my art which only gives me enough to survive.but who knows.you know about the SIAM site right?.that where you go and check for active claims in Mexico.just google SIAM cartografia .it will take you to the Mexican map.click on capas and check satelite and conceciones mineras.if you want to check a title by number or name click busqueda.just helping anybody who needs info about Mexico.happy huntings.
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I appreciate the information that the book was available free on the Web. But, while it may seem old fashioned, really important books, I am more comfortable with the hard copy. I can make notes on the pages, and add my own page notes in the front and back.
The book did come yesterday, I am back in the States briefly. It is in good shape, in fact really great shape. It came from a High school library, but can't yet read which one. Thanks for tip.
That quantities of gold may have been removed from Tenochtitlan before the fights to the death would agree with local legends where I live, of gold being buried in large quantities. My doubts on the treasure being buried here were caused by lack of details on any large quantity of gold to be buried. This is another important clue, thanks for reference.
The book did come yesterday, I am back in the States briefly. It is in good shape, in fact really great shape. It came from a High school library, but can't yet read which one. Thanks for tip.
That quantities of gold may have been removed from Tenochtitlan before the fights to the death would agree with local legends where I live, of gold being buried in large quantities. My doubts on the treasure being buried here were caused by lack of details on any large quantity of gold to be buried. This is another important clue, thanks for reference.
The book I bought is a different one. This is called THE DISCOVERY AND CONQUEST OF MEXICO 1517-1521. Translation by A.P. Maudslay, printed 1970.
Though I read through it rapidly, I did not see where buildings were sheathed in gold, nor poor people wore it.
The building where Cortes was housed and where they held Moctzuma prisoner included a walled in room. They broke in and found a treasure Diaz estimated at around 700,000 pesos, which I assume means weight. After looking at it, they sealed the wall up again. But, the Aztecs knew it had been opened and re-sealed.
Wiki says an old peso was 27.468 grams, times 700,000 means 19227600 grams total. divided by 1000 gives 19227 kilograms. A kg weighs 2.2 pounds. So, that would be 42300 pounds. Over 21 tons. Though part of it was described as jewels, that is a lot of loot. a cubic foot of water is 1728 cubic inches, or 7.48 gallons at 231 cubic inches per gallon. So, a cubic foot of water at 8 pounds per gallon would be around 60 pounds, so a cubic foot of gold at sp. gr. 19.25 would be 1150 pounds.
So, 16 tons would be around 32 plus or minus cubic feet. That would be one foot deep in a F-150 pickup bed, though the weight of gold would destroy the pickup and its tires.
During the Noche Triste when they escaped, it has been written elsewhere that the gold fell into the lake.
This book said before they started, it was distributed among soldiers; and horses; and 80 Tlaxcalans (soldiers from Tlaxcala, which is a small state north of Puebla). And, most of the 80 Tlaxcalans and their loads made it out. If each of the 80 only carried 100 pounds, a modest amount for experienced bearers, that would be, um, four tons, total around 20% of the estimated total.
Also, Diaz did not specifically note that the rest fell in the lake. It seemed to be assumed that it did.
I suspect it did not fall in the lake, that the Aztecs grabbed it off the horses and soldier bearers as they killed them.
And, while Cortes was off planning his next invasion would have been a perfect time to send the remaining treasure to my neighborhood, which Moctezuma owned and had protected by guards, no more than 2 days distant. Not hundreds of miles to an unknown place where there would be no reason to expect they could ever retrieve it later.
And, several tons, maybe as much as 16 tons, would indeed take a week to bury.
Though why assume it was buried? Let us use our imaginations and guess they layed it on the ground and carried dirt to build the tetele on my uncle's land over it, heh, heh. When I get back there, I will ask my wife to show me the tetele. It is a short walk from my house. I have simply not noticed it, since the terrain is very rough there, and there is much flora on the ground. Still, if there are tons of gold under that sucker, a DEEP-SEEKER would spot it, I think.
Toss the gold on the ground, and drag dirt to make a large mound over it. The work to dig it out later makes that mound of dirt as good a lock-box as you could want. Not only for the work involved, but for the obvious work needed to dig it out, not easy to hide such a dig.
Though there is no reason to rule out the room where the skeleton with the gold neck piece was found. That would require digging and carting out the dirt, then putting the dirt back later. But, with enough men to carry 16 tons over the mountains in two days, that would not be a hard job. Just time consuming, since only a few could work at a time in a closed room. Building a mound for a tetele cover could go much faster: dig; carry; toss for a week. With everyone working at the same time except for guards.
Clearly, when people look for something, they tend to find only what they are looking for. In this case, I expected to find an explanation for two things.
1. A source of gold to bring to my neighborhood. The 20 tons - what Cortes stole, is the source. I did not take the local legend too seriously because I was unaware of a source of that much gold. I had assumed the gold was lost in the lake. Now, I don't think so.
2.A good time to bring it up to the country estate. After the gold was stolen once, was the time to bring it up to the Emperor's Country place.
Oh, I forgot. Moctezuma told them he received the gold as a gift from his father. That is interesting, because his father was not an Emperor. His grandfather was, though, so he could have left it to his son, the father of Moctezuma. But, it is interesting that a man who was not Emporer had 20 tons of loot. How much more would the Emperors have had.
Also, other people may have also had many tons of gold.Cortes only knew about that stash because they lived in that house. Maybe it was someone else's gold which was taken to my village. The possibiities are unlimited.
Such fun trying to see past the cultural difference to find out what happened, right?
Though I read through it rapidly, I did not see where buildings were sheathed in gold, nor poor people wore it.
The building where Cortes was housed and where they held Moctzuma prisoner included a walled in room. They broke in and found a treasure Diaz estimated at around 700,000 pesos, which I assume means weight. After looking at it, they sealed the wall up again. But, the Aztecs knew it had been opened and re-sealed.
Wiki says an old peso was 27.468 grams, times 700,000 means 19227600 grams total. divided by 1000 gives 19227 kilograms. A kg weighs 2.2 pounds. So, that would be 42300 pounds. Over 21 tons. Though part of it was described as jewels, that is a lot of loot. a cubic foot of water is 1728 cubic inches, or 7.48 gallons at 231 cubic inches per gallon. So, a cubic foot of water at 8 pounds per gallon would be around 60 pounds, so a cubic foot of gold at sp. gr. 19.25 would be 1150 pounds.
So, 16 tons would be around 32 plus or minus cubic feet. That would be one foot deep in a F-150 pickup bed, though the weight of gold would destroy the pickup and its tires.
During the Noche Triste when they escaped, it has been written elsewhere that the gold fell into the lake.
This book said before they started, it was distributed among soldiers; and horses; and 80 Tlaxcalans (soldiers from Tlaxcala, which is a small state north of Puebla). And, most of the 80 Tlaxcalans and their loads made it out. If each of the 80 only carried 100 pounds, a modest amount for experienced bearers, that would be, um, four tons, total around 20% of the estimated total.
Also, Diaz did not specifically note that the rest fell in the lake. It seemed to be assumed that it did.
I suspect it did not fall in the lake, that the Aztecs grabbed it off the horses and soldier bearers as they killed them.
And, while Cortes was off planning his next invasion would have been a perfect time to send the remaining treasure to my neighborhood, which Moctezuma owned and had protected by guards, no more than 2 days distant. Not hundreds of miles to an unknown place where there would be no reason to expect they could ever retrieve it later.
And, several tons, maybe as much as 16 tons, would indeed take a week to bury.
Though why assume it was buried? Let us use our imaginations and guess they layed it on the ground and carried dirt to build the tetele on my uncle's land over it, heh, heh. When I get back there, I will ask my wife to show me the tetele. It is a short walk from my house. I have simply not noticed it, since the terrain is very rough there, and there is much flora on the ground. Still, if there are tons of gold under that sucker, a DEEP-SEEKER would spot it, I think.
Toss the gold on the ground, and drag dirt to make a large mound over it. The work to dig it out later makes that mound of dirt as good a lock-box as you could want. Not only for the work involved, but for the obvious work needed to dig it out, not easy to hide such a dig.
Though there is no reason to rule out the room where the skeleton with the gold neck piece was found. That would require digging and carting out the dirt, then putting the dirt back later. But, with enough men to carry 16 tons over the mountains in two days, that would not be a hard job. Just time consuming, since only a few could work at a time in a closed room. Building a mound for a tetele cover could go much faster: dig; carry; toss for a week. With everyone working at the same time except for guards.
Clearly, when people look for something, they tend to find only what they are looking for. In this case, I expected to find an explanation for two things.
1. A source of gold to bring to my neighborhood. The 20 tons - what Cortes stole, is the source. I did not take the local legend too seriously because I was unaware of a source of that much gold. I had assumed the gold was lost in the lake. Now, I don't think so.
2.A good time to bring it up to the country estate. After the gold was stolen once, was the time to bring it up to the Emperor's Country place.
Oh, I forgot. Moctezuma told them he received the gold as a gift from his father. That is interesting, because his father was not an Emperor. His grandfather was, though, so he could have left it to his son, the father of Moctezuma. But, it is interesting that a man who was not Emporer had 20 tons of loot. How much more would the Emperors have had.
Also, other people may have also had many tons of gold.Cortes only knew about that stash because they lived in that house. Maybe it was someone else's gold which was taken to my village. The possibiities are unlimited.
Such fun trying to see past the cultural difference to find out what happened, right?
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- Jun 27, 2004
- 498
- 873
While this seems to be a verified point of history, what isn't verified is if this consisted of the majority of the Aztec treasure that they had available. I frankly find it a rather unlikely proposition, particularly when you consider the vast amount of treasure Montezuma sent Cortez's way as a means of persuading him NOT to come any further inland. But even if we're talking about this as a sole repository it represents a vast amount of treasure.
Nice analysis, never seen it laid out like that before but it certainly gives some context to what is otherwise an ambiguous representation of what we're talking about.
This comes straight from a paper I wrote a number of years back, I've posted it on here at least once, but I'll include a link at the end for the full paper if you'd like to take a look at it. That being said, much of the treasure ending up in the lake is a well documented fact. What is ALSO well documented, is that the Aztecs RECOVERED much of what was lost. Seems silly to recover it just to throw it back in again. I submit:
Encumbered by the heavy metal and greed, one third of Cortés' retreating force fell into the canals and drowned or were overtaken by the Aztecs and subsequently sacrificed. Miguel Leon-Portilla describes, in the Aztecs own words, their efforts to recover the gold from the bodies of the drowned Spanish soldiers: "…They recovered the gold ingots, the gold disks, the tubes of gold dust and the chalchihuite collars with their gold pendants. They gathered up everything they could find and searched the waters of the canal with the greatest of care." (89) This event, tragic though it was, proved only a setback for the determined Cortés. In 1521 Cortés would finally conquer the Aztecs after laying siege to Tenochtitlán. The ravages of disease would lay waste the majority of Tenochtitlán vast populace, the rest would fall victim to starvation induced by the months-long siege. The Spanish then claimed Tenochtitlán and the Aztec territories in the name of the crown. The treasure they sought proved far more elusive than they could have imagined. William Prescott notes that, "The booty found there-that is, the treasures of gold and jewels, the only booty of much value in the eyes of the Spaniards-fell far below their expectations. …Yet the Aztecs must have been in possession of a much larger treasure, if it were only the wreck of that recovered from the Spaniards on the night of the memorable flight from Mexico." (812)
Leon-Portilla, Miguel. The Broken Spears: The Aztec Account of the Conquest of Mexico. Trans. Lysander Kemp. Boston, MA: Beacon Press, 1990.
Prescott, William H. History of the Conquest of Mexico. New York: The Modern Library, 2001.
Again, an interesting scenario, though no matter where they took the treasure it seems far more likely in my estimation that they moved the treasure after Cortez retreated, they had 14 months (as I recall) to make preparaions for such an endeavor regardless of how far they took it or how they disposed of it.
You've mentioned in previous posts reasons for not thinking it could have been moved hundreds of miles North, particularly logistics. I can think of a lot of ways to explain those away in ways tat seem quite rationale. What I can't do is come up with the earliest version of the story that suggests 2000 Aztecs took the treasure North. This is frequently refered to as the "two moons" scenario, because it is suggested this group traveled for 2 months. Finding the source or earliest representation of this story would be enormously beneficial. I also think there are some other alternatives to consider...
At any rate, this is the whole paper I wrote: Aztec Essay in Montezuma's Treasure/Aztec Treasures Forum
Feel free to offer feedback. This is the tip of the iceberg in terms of what i have in mind, but time and circumstances have not permitted me to fully develop or articulate some of the ideas I have.
Randy
cactusjumper
Gold Member
Randy,
It's good to see you posting here again. Welcome back!
Very good post. "The Broken Spears...." is an important book for anyone studying what became of the Aztecs and their treasures. Thanks for the link to your Essay.
Take care,
Joe Ribaudo
It's good to see you posting here again. Welcome back!
Very good post. "The Broken Spears...." is an important book for anyone studying what became of the Aztecs and their treasures. Thanks for the link to your Essay.
Take care,
Joe Ribaudo
- Jun 27, 2004
- 498
- 873
I never go away Joe, I just get side tracked. I popped over to DesertUSA but didn't look like much had changed over thee. I like reading but the topic (Lost Dutchman) is in general something I know far much less about than the other folks posting.
There's another book worth reading with excerpts from "Broken Spears," I it's called "Victors and Vanquished: Spanish and Nahua Views of the Conquest of Mexico" and p[rovids a good contrast.
I'm really hoping 2014 is the year I actually write my book on the Montezuma Treasure, though at this point it'd mostly bea colleciton of stuff I've written on the internet. I have a few things brewing tht I think will give it all some new perspective and cohesion though.
There's another book worth reading with excerpts from "Broken Spears," I it's called "Victors and Vanquished: Spanish and Nahua Views of the Conquest of Mexico" and p[rovids a good contrast.
I'm really hoping 2014 is the year I actually write my book on the Montezuma Treasure, though at this point it'd mostly bea colleciton of stuff I've written on the internet. I have a few things brewing tht I think will give it all some new perspective and cohesion though.
cactusjumper
Gold Member
Randy,
Looking back, I would probably just go with Bernal Diaz's book and "Broken Spears". Those two books seemed a little more focused. Looking forward to reading your new book. Keep us posted.
Take care,
Joe
Looking back, I would probably just go with Bernal Diaz's book and "Broken Spears". Those two books seemed a little more focused. Looking forward to reading your new book. Keep us posted.
Take care,
Joe
- Jun 27, 2004
- 498
- 873
I think the overall best book on the Conquest was one by Richard Lee Marks called: Cortes: The Great Adventurer and the Fate of Aztec Mexico
Historically emphasized but not as dense as Hugh Thomas. The Marks book reads like a novel and is my go-to book for research leads.
not sure if you've read Steve Wilson's book on the Spider Rocks, but that's my inspiration in some respects. I really respect the fact that he took something as vague and uncertain as a buried treasure story and generated a truly scholarly, through and detailed work that proved you can treat a treasure story like history and give people something both interesting to read, and easy to research on their own after the fact.
Historically emphasized but not as dense as Hugh Thomas. The Marks book reads like a novel and is my go-to book for research leads.
not sure if you've read Steve Wilson's book on the Spider Rocks, but that's my inspiration in some respects. I really respect the fact that he took something as vague and uncertain as a buried treasure story and generated a truly scholarly, through and detailed work that proved you can treat a treasure story like history and give people something both interesting to read, and easy to research on their own after the fact.
WOW!!!
Though my posting was as much extrapolation from all known information in my memory banks, what you wrote in your posting does not seem to disagree with my opinion.
Which is why I have written it is important to know both the history and culture (present and past) when searching.
Yes, of course, I want to read your essay. In fact, at this moment my cup runneth over...
I will be back.
Though my posting was as much extrapolation from all known information in my memory banks, what you wrote in your posting does not seem to disagree with my opinion.
Which is why I have written it is important to know both the history and culture (present and past) when searching.
Yes, of course, I want to read your essay. In fact, at this moment my cup runneth over...
I will be back.
I read through your essay quickly, and will be doing it again.
Where I live, and where local legend say the treasure (which to me includes the possibility that it is only part of the treasure) is buried is indeed 60 to 160 miles from Tenochtitlan, but not north east. And, in part my reasons for not accepting a two month expedition to hide the gold in a place where it would almost certainly never be recovered are the same logistics you mention.
I was also especially gratified to read the Aztecs admitted they recovered at least a lot of the sunken gold. That to me was also too obvious.
Actually, my wife's grandfather said they dug in the floor of the Moctezuma house around 1910 and found a skeleton with a gold neck piece which was donated to buy the new church bell.I do have an old photo pre-1908 which shows the bell tower in very bad condition, being repaired. That doesn't prove the gold/bell tale, but it is consistent.
Also, remember my wife is almost certainly descended from Moctezuma I, not II.
One local historian claims the Tenochas, when they traveled to Vera Cruz, stopped here as a rest stop, sort of, though it is not in a direct line with Vera Cruz.
And, with experienced bearers the trip out here could be as fast as two days. Seriously.
Two days ago, we returned from a trip to the border. We came back as pilgrimages returned from the Basilican of Guadalupe. As we passed one town, there were hundreds of bicyclists, around 60 miles from Mexico City. it was obvious they had come over the mountains most likely that day, on paved highways.
And, there were two young women running with torches behind a pickup. A friend said they could run up to half an hour and then change to the next runners. At 6 mph, they had to start at midnight. They were not carrying gold, but they were not strong bearers either.
On the Tenochas knowing about the ships coming, it is reported the Aztecs had mirror signaling and with the proper weather might have known in Tenochtitlan in a few minutes, not days.And, what I am getting here in this village is sort of oral tradition over hundreds of years. Supported by later evidence such as the gold found in the house. (Note that is gold found in one of the places legends say the treasure was buried, even if was only a modest amount.)
In addition, I do not believe the gold found in the sealed room was all the Aztecs had. This may have been all Moctezuma I had and left to his son, who left it to his son, Moctezuma II. It would not be rational no other Emperor had gold and jewels. They all extracted tribute from other tribes.
So, there could have been other large quantities of treasure trucked out here, or to other places the Tenochas had family.
Oh, man, I am going to order that Leon-Portilla book tonight, even though I won't see if for several months.
Much of my current opinion is based on the fact that the information I am finding is consistent with the treasure being available and being buried here. Consistency is not hard proof, but it is certainly a low level of circumstantial evidence. And, local legends cannot be simply ignored. So, in this case there is some evidence to support the legends.
I could tell you much more in support, but not without outing my location.
Where I live, and where local legend say the treasure (which to me includes the possibility that it is only part of the treasure) is buried is indeed 60 to 160 miles from Tenochtitlan, but not north east. And, in part my reasons for not accepting a two month expedition to hide the gold in a place where it would almost certainly never be recovered are the same logistics you mention.
I was also especially gratified to read the Aztecs admitted they recovered at least a lot of the sunken gold. That to me was also too obvious.
Actually, my wife's grandfather said they dug in the floor of the Moctezuma house around 1910 and found a skeleton with a gold neck piece which was donated to buy the new church bell.I do have an old photo pre-1908 which shows the bell tower in very bad condition, being repaired. That doesn't prove the gold/bell tale, but it is consistent.
Also, remember my wife is almost certainly descended from Moctezuma I, not II.
One local historian claims the Tenochas, when they traveled to Vera Cruz, stopped here as a rest stop, sort of, though it is not in a direct line with Vera Cruz.
And, with experienced bearers the trip out here could be as fast as two days. Seriously.
Two days ago, we returned from a trip to the border. We came back as pilgrimages returned from the Basilican of Guadalupe. As we passed one town, there were hundreds of bicyclists, around 60 miles from Mexico City. it was obvious they had come over the mountains most likely that day, on paved highways.
And, there were two young women running with torches behind a pickup. A friend said they could run up to half an hour and then change to the next runners. At 6 mph, they had to start at midnight. They were not carrying gold, but they were not strong bearers either.
On the Tenochas knowing about the ships coming, it is reported the Aztecs had mirror signaling and with the proper weather might have known in Tenochtitlan in a few minutes, not days.And, what I am getting here in this village is sort of oral tradition over hundreds of years. Supported by later evidence such as the gold found in the house. (Note that is gold found in one of the places legends say the treasure was buried, even if was only a modest amount.)
In addition, I do not believe the gold found in the sealed room was all the Aztecs had. This may have been all Moctezuma I had and left to his son, who left it to his son, Moctezuma II. It would not be rational no other Emperor had gold and jewels. They all extracted tribute from other tribes.
So, there could have been other large quantities of treasure trucked out here, or to other places the Tenochas had family.
Oh, man, I am going to order that Leon-Portilla book tonight, even though I won't see if for several months.
Much of my current opinion is based on the fact that the information I am finding is consistent with the treasure being available and being buried here. Consistency is not hard proof, but it is certainly a low level of circumstantial evidence. And, local legends cannot be simply ignored. So, in this case there is some evidence to support the legends.
I could tell you much more in support, but not without outing my location.
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