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Thread: Montezumas Treasure: Colorado Leads

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  1. #16
    donald peterson

    Jan 2013
    somewhere between flagstaff, preskit
    Whites prism III
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  2. #17
    Charter Member

    Jun 2004
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    Quote Originally Posted by Springfield View Post
    The apparent lack of northern tribal stories describing such a journey (at least to my knowledge) has always been a red flag for me in regards to a long trip northward.

    Now, interestingly, Bailey mentions Tiburon Island as one of the treasure trove's rumored destinations - a journey that would have been shorter and would have eliminated traveling through all of today's American Southwest and the last 200 miles of northern Mexico. The land-based part of the trek could theoretically have been much shorter if a large section of the it had been made by boat. What were the Mexica's seafaring capabilities?
    I would agree, the lack of oral tradition is problematic. For my position, it's less a question of there not being oral traditions and more a question of perhaps (In my case at least) they aren't stories available to many. Perhaps they are there and my own research simply hasn't come across them is a better way to frame it. It is very clear that many of you are much more knowledgeable in this department then I likely ever will be.

    I would point to other possibilities...namely that the other tribes might have had a vested interest in not passing on such a story (again, pure speculation) or that perhaps they were recorded in rock art. I have a panel in Southern Utah that may be the very clue I'm looking for to support this story.

    I don't believe the Aztec had any sea-fairing capabilities and their crafting skills were limited to small, freshwater boats designed for canals and lakes that they lived on. Tiburon Island is on my list of candidates, and i may have an article or two to support it. Tiburon Island was home to a tribe of people who were infamous for their violent and cannibalistic ways. One one hand, they'd make formidable obstacle in hiding a treasure there at all, on the other hand they would make equally formidable guards for such a thing.
    Presenting: Selections From the National Prospector's Gazette Volume 1: Exanimo Looks at Books
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  3. #18
    pw
    Apr 2003
    New Mexico
    BS
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    Quote Originally Posted by pippinwhitepaws View Post
    ... you will notice in the following photomontage that GOLD, while found, is noticeably absent from most maya graves.
    it is my belief that people are confusing continents and cultures...please examine inca culture for grave goods made of gold...

    http://www.famsi.org/reports/01081/01081Wrobel01.pdf
    Yeah, we know all that, but we're talking about the Mexica (aka Aztecs), not Maya or Inca burial items. The Mexica possessed large quantities of golden objects, many of them temple-related, that were obviously important to them and coveted by the Spanish, who killed and tortured to steal them. Sure, the Mexica created other artwork made from other materials, but he Spanish gold lust created this whole scenario. The question at point is where the gold disappeared to when the Mexica realized the Spaniards' motivation and had the opportunity to act.
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    ​Adios, amigos - it's been interesting.







  4. #19
    donald peterson

    Jan 2013
    somewhere between flagstaff, preskit
    Whites prism III
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    sorry for interrupting...hope you find the treasure
    merry Christmas happy new year.

    -30-

  5. #20
    Charter Member

    Jun 2004
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    Quote Originally Posted by pippinwhitepaws View Post
    sorry for interrupting...hope you find the treasure
    merry Christmas happy new year.

    -30-
    Can't speak for anyone else, I didn't see your comments as an interruption at all. Thanks for the feedback and contributing to a lively discussion. Without "interruptions" this just becomes one more dead thread haunting the Internet...

    I should also point out I'm not trying to find the treasure, I'm much more interested in the stories about it and how they've contributed to the folklore and historical development ofthe United States...
    Last edited by Randy Bradford; Dec 24, 2013 at 12:15 PM.
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    Presenting: Selections From the National Prospector's Gazette Volume 1: Exanimo Looks at Books
    ----------
    Randy Bradford's Buy, Sell and Trade List


    National Prospector's Gazette, Exanimo Express, Gene Ballinger Publications, 8 States Association, National Treasure Hunter's League, Gold Bug, Johnny Pounds "The Treasure Hunter," and so many more...

    Understanding our hobby, by embracing its history...

  6. #21
    mx
    Nov 2004
    Alamos,Sonora,Mexico
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    Gentlemen, regarding Tiberon, just to the east is San Estaban another uninhabited island, only used by the Narcos occasionally to guard their northern water route. Frankly An excellent place to hide anyhing

    .I doubt that it was moved very far A huge migration or movement such as this would require many many bearers plus much more worriors to guard it.,Itwould certainly go down in the sing sing, of any tribe to be guarded by the older females who also guarded heriditary data verbally.
    .
    Even today these females can spout off hereditary lines and other important bits of tribal history faster than you can call it up on a computer.

    The Yaqui or Apache never had the numbers to attack such a large sized group.

    on Jose ---> half asleep.
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    "I exist to live, not live to exist"

  7. #22
    us
    Jul 2012
    San Antonio, Texas
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    [QUOTE=pippinwhitepaws;3759759]since my education is meaningless and prone to gathering insults....please read yahoo's answer to the question of gold among the Aztec and maya.

    Mayan and Aztec Mining? - Yahoo Answers[/QUOT


    Wait a minute buddy. We've had some words, but your education is not meaningless. You are well versed in many subjects and quite intelligent. AND you make some great points in this discussion. You would make a wonderful teacher and I promise you there are jobs out there. I know you talked about what happened, but it is really a non-issue here. I have worked with people who had a lot more trouble than you will ever have and they were good teachers too. You have what it takes so go for it. I'll help any way I can. (But I ain't goin lookin for no Aztec treasure no matter where it is.) I respect your opinions more than you know. See, I'm an old geezer(Red's words), but I did 30 years in a high school and now about 10 part time in a college. I'm old and tired. Now, it's your turn.
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  8. #23
    us
    May 2010
    texas
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    Quote Originally Posted by pippinwhitepaws View Post
    clearly my ability to communicate is substandard.

    THE AZTEC VALUED OTHER MATERIALS ABOVE GOLD.
    yes, they did mine, smelt and form gold...a simple task compared to shaping turquoise or jade or obsidian.
    you willnotice in the following photomontage that GOLD, while found, is noticeably absent from most maya graves.
    it is my belief that people are confusing continents and cultures...please examine inca culture for grave goods made of gold.

    http://www.famsi.org/reports/01081/01081Wrobel01.pdf
    Attachment 917295
    Attachment 917296
    Attachment 917297
    Attachment 917298
    Attachment 917299
    Attachment 917300
    Howdy Don,

    Seems like gold was just too precious to bury.

    Homar

  9. #24
    um
    Nemo me impune lacesset

    Jan 2005
    DAKOTA TERRITORY
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    Just a point here - while the danger of hostile tribes could have been a roadblock, or obstacle at least, to the Aztecs moving a mass of treasure valuable to the invading Spaniards, I do question whether the Apaches would have been a problem. There is some evidence that they were not present in AZ/NM at all at that time period. Spanish maps dating even later than the Aztec conquest, show much of what later became known as Apacheria, as "Despoblado" - vacant with no people living there. Also, the Navajos were occupying a larger area than two centuries later, extending farther out than their current reservation boundaries. Also even if tribes like the Apaches we consider to have been aggressive and hostile, were present, we do not know that they were hostile to the Aztecs.

    Please do continue -
    Oroblanco

    SUPPORT THE BEEF INDUSTRY - EAT BEEF
    "We must find a way, or we will make one."--Hannibal Barca

  10. #25
    mx
    May 2010
    850
    351 times
    Dec 23, 2013, 11:23 PM Randy Bradford

    >>As a Latter Day Saint, it's difficult for me to imagine having the faith to abandon my home and my property to pull handcarts and my family across the 1800s Midwest to a remote valley in Utah based on nothing more than faith in leaders

    Actually, that long trip based on faith makes all the sense in the world. I have seen nothing but conjecture from local legends in the USA that the Aztecs even knew where they came from. Just as scientists go to great pains to avoid contaminating samples on Mars with Earth bacteria, local legends are very risky due to modern contamination. This was true hundreds of years ago as well.

    Dec 24, 2013, 03:47 AM Oroblanco

    I don't want to seem like I am dogging you. I do agree one needs to consider they moved the gold months away, with no expectation of ever getting it back, just to keep it from the Spanish. I have considered it, which is why I reject it, heh, heh.

    Yet, if you find gold in AZ or NM, does it really matter where it came from? I do not doubt gold caches in those States. I just doubt they came from Tenochtitlan.

    It has been stated by historians (don't have the sources at this moment) that the Aztecs had a system of mirrors and could communicate with Vera Cruz in a few minutes, and did in fact know within a very short time when the ships of Cortes landed. A government with that standard of communications would not be likely to send an extremely valuable treasure to a place with no record of any system of communications, not even the standard runner system. I do not know if they had mirrors to my village, though the terrain would make it possible.

    Or, at least send a mirror message to a relay place much closer, then runners a fairly short distance.

    Um, Randy, there is plenty of oral tradition in my village, heh, heh. From time to time I bump into historical or physical evidence to back it up. Someone has said here that with all the legends no gold has been found at any of the sites. My wife's grandfather told her that around 1910 (dates by oral tradition are very unreliable, it has been stated his mother, a Moctezuma, died in 1911, but Mormon copies of church documents shows she died in 1916) he dug in the floor of the house of Moctezuma and found a skeleton with a heavy gold neck piece, which he donated to the church and it was sold to buy a new bell.

    I happen to have a scanned picture post card dated 1908, and the local church tower has platforms for workers to repair major damage. This, again, is not absolute proof, but is another example of consistency. That is, around 1910 they would have indeed been praying for a new bell. Everyone would have been discussing the need for a new bell, thus when he found that gold piece, it didn't take him long to figure out it could buy the new bell. This sort of thing is where knowledge of an area's history and culture can give you important clues.

    I do have my own wild conjectures. Moctezuma II was killed, but the location of his body was not recorded. I would love to find where in the local cemetery they buried that skeleton and do DNA testing. Yeah, I conjecture that Moctezuma II could have been brought out here and buried in the floor of his own house. How's that for wild conjecture, sports fans? Add in the wild conjecture phrase, "right on top of his treasure" if you want thrills and chills.

    In any case, a person buried with a large gold piece on his neck had to be a very important person.
    Last edited by piegrande; Dec 27, 2013 at 10:28 AM.

  11. #26
    mx
    May 2010
    850
    351 times
    Local tales report that my wife's grandfather, three times president of the municipio, allowed people to dig on his property looking for the treasure. Local oral tradition legends are that strong they actually want to dig for it. In fact, my garbage hole was dug by two men who got drunk one day and concluded the treasure was buried at that exact location. I told them when the hole is full of garbage, I am going to buy them another bottle of whiskey.

    People asked grandpa why he let them dig. He always answered, "First, they are not going to find any gold there." A very interesting statement if you contemplate it a while. So, how does he know they won't find it there?

    Anyway, he then added, "Besides it's good for my avocado trees to have the soil turned up once in a while. And, if I don't let them dig, they may kill me and dig anyway."

  12. #27
    mx
    May 2010
    850
    351 times
    Grandpa also said if he knew where it was, he wouldn't dig it up. He said, "If I didn't put it there, it's not mine." His grandsons, now owners of that property, have pretty much the same view.

    And, so do I. If I find the treasure, I am going to frantically cover it up and forget about it. At best the Federal government is going to confiscate it all, and probably the land around it, and I might get kidnapped and killed. Why bother? I am sort of like Randy. It is only the curiosity that keeps me going. If I did get part of it, I'd probably donate it to the current family, or if it's on my own property to the people who sold the land to my brother-in-law. The old people are obnoxious, but the young kids are absolutely wonderful, and I could not deprive them of anything.

  13. #28
    gb
    Ethnic YO

    Oct 2013
    Wedmore
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    I know this post is 10 years late but oh well. In regards to peoples assumption that the Aztecs would not have travelled that distance, well if they travelled north they would have come to the rio grande river, follow that and you end up in Colorado. The river would have been a source of fresh drinking water as well which could have sustained there journey!
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  14. #29
    mx
    May 2010
    850
    351 times
    And fish...

    There is plenty of evidence the Aztecs were fish eaters.

    It is maybe 700+ miles from Tenochtitlan to the Rio Grande (Mexico calls it Rio Bravo). I am not sure, because my odometer records a bit over 800 miles from my home to Reynosa and the Anzalduas bridge. So, maybe it is even less, like 600 miles. But, I get to drive on a paved highway. Those marching, well, if you have never seen the terrain in between, you are missing a real treat. Very rough terrain.

    And, probably no maps at all. I assume Aztecs had people who could navigate by the stars. They were great astronomers.

    earlier posting >>>>One of the few things we can be certain of about this story is that there was indeed a treasure to be had.

    That exact story showing the treasure existed was the main key which finally convinced me the treasure is right here on Moctezuma property. It took me 30 years to eliminate all the inconsistencies. Once I did, I am convinced it is here. And, the more y'all explain why it might be in the USA, the more apparent it is that the logical place is right here. Love it!

    And, the one thing this location has, is GOLD HAS BEEN FOUND HERE. Which those supporting other places admit is not available for those places.

    A reminder that the man who reported the finding of gold here, was three times municipio presidente. Not a drunk or bum. His mother was a Moctezuma who died in 1916 of typhus during the epidemic. His father died in 1937 at which time he became owner of the property where I believe the treasure is buried. His son now owns it and has no desire to dig, even though he has to know there is a chance it is there.

    He was noted for hating liars. And, once he even tossed his own son in jail for public intox.

    But, the big key to my decision was trying to duplicate the thinking processes of military geniuses. Two months to the north to be buried in a non-secure place with zero probability of future retrieval is not consistent with military genius.

    Two days to Moctezuma property to be buried in a known secure place where it can be retrieved is consistent with military genius.

    Plus unlike the northern option, there is indeed local oral tradition here. Tons of it.

    I really wish I could share everything I know about this location. Anyone who came here and spent time studying this issue as I have done would almost certainly arrive at the same conclusion. Readers must reasonably ignore my writings as the invention of one man.
    Last edited by piegrande; Sep 10, 2014 at 11:26 AM.
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  15. #30
    Charter Member

    Jun 2004
    285
    411 times
    Quote Originally Posted by piegrande View Post
    And fish...

    There is plenty of evidence the Aztecs were fish eaters.

    It is maybe 700+ miles from Tenochtitlan to the Rio Grande (Mexico calls it Rio Bravo). I am not sure, because my odometer records a bit over 800 miles from my home to Reynosa and the Anzalduas bridge. So, maybe it is even less, like 600 miles. But, I get to drive on a paved highway. Those marching, well, if you have never seen the terrain in between, you are missing a real treat. Very rough terrain.

    And, probably no maps at all. I assume Aztecs had people who could navigate by the stars. They were great astronomers.
    They didn't have to have maps, the Aztecs had well established trade routes from thecapital city in Mexico all the way to Northern Arizona. Established trade routes would include navogable pathways, consistant and dependable sources of food, water and shelter. More importantly, they would put the Aztecs on direct paths with villages friendly to the Aztec traders. For me this is one of the easier parts of the story to make sense of from a pruely common sense perspective. It just would have been another trading party but on a much larger scale. Things don't get real sticky until they get to the Grand Canyon with the minor possibility being (depending on the sixze of the transport party) that many of the resoruces they were exploiting weren't designed to support so many people. Ultimately while that many people would be difficult to supply and support, it's easy to assume that intermitent villages were able to contribute (willingly or otherwise) to the Aztec groups needs.

    Quote Originally Posted by piegrande View Post
    earlier posting >>>>One of the few things we can be certain of about this story is that there was indeed a treasure to be had.

    But, the big key to my decision was trying to duplicate the thinking processes of military geniuses. Two months to the north to be buried in a non-secure place with zero probability of future retrieval is not consistent with military genius.

    Two days to Moctezuma property to be buried in a known secure place where it can be retrieved is consistent with military genius.
    That assumes military genius was necessary. There's a good chance the treasure was hidden with no goal in mind of ever retreaving it, but simply as a means of removing it from the grasp of the Spaniards or as a means of drawing the Spaniards away by giving them something to follow. Many beleive the Azte were fulfilling a quest of signnificant spiritual and prophetic qualities. In this context, the need to fulfil relligious symbolism or dictates could easily overshadow the necessity for "military genius." One could easily argue, why bother hiding a treasure so close to where the Spanish had been one might not reasonably expect it to be safe.

    Keep in mind piegrande, I've never argued that you're wrong in your assumptions. I've never challenged your credentials, your expeirence, your theories or your evidences. I cannot confirm them much less challenge them. In my paradigm, tere is plenty of room for both theories to exist simultaneously because at the end of the day neither can be exploited to once and for all. Keep in mind also, the military genius of the Aztec is not supported by the historical narrative either. They were capable warriors with numbers on their side which was sufficient to overpower and subjigate other tribes but no the numericly inferior Spaniards. How much of that is attributed to military genius, dumb luck, divine intervention, or a myriad of other factors is certainly open for discussion.


    Quote Originally Posted by piegrande View Post
    Plus unlike the northern option, there is indeed local oral tradition here. Tons of it.
    I would wholenardedly agree this is a significant weakness of the theory that the treasure came into the United States. However, because I know of no oral tradition to indicate it happened does not mean the oral tradition is not there. That's definatley somethign I haven't been in a position to explore throughly and the only thing I have to go by is what others have said. How much they have researched the topic is anyone's guess. In my mind, it's highly possible some aspects of oral tradition simpy are not shared outside of a select few, perhaps these stories exist but are not shared as openly as other tales. Who's to say.

    Quote Originally Posted by piegrande View Post
    I really wish I could share everything I know about this location. Anyone who came here and spent time studying this issue as I have done would almost certainly arrive at the same conclusion. Readers must reasonably ignore my writings as the invention of one man.
    Or they can accept them as one more possibiity that's just as difficulty to verify or authenticate as any other. This isn't an either or situaiton, for my part your story has as much merit as any other. I don't dismiss the possibility, I simply have no way to act on it to establish if it has any more legitimacy then any other story I've investigated. Thanks for the feedback sir, always interesting...
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    Randy Bradford's Buy, Sell and Trade List


    National Prospector's Gazette, Exanimo Express, Gene Ballinger Publications, 8 States Association, National Treasure Hunter's League, Gold Bug, Johnny Pounds "The Treasure Hunter," and so many more...

    Understanding our hobby, by embracing its history...

 

 
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