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Thread: Montezumas Treasure: Colorado Leads

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  1. #31
    mx
    May 2010
    873
    369 times
    >>That assumes military genius was necessary.

    I am not saying military genius was necessary to hide the gold. But, the military genius was present therefore would have been used once Moctezuma was dead.

    >>One could easily argue, why bother hiding a treasure so close to where the Spanish had been one might not reasonably expect it to be safe.

    True. but in an uncharted primitive area of 300,000 square miles in harsh mountains, it can be awfully hard to find anything. I note in the USA where people are looking, it is apparently necessary to set up signs visible miles away. The gold hunters spend lots of time looking at photos including satellite photos hoping to find a clue. Carvings or painted signs. The terrain here isn't much different.

    >>and subjigate other tribes but no the numericly inferior Spaniards.

    The only reason the Spanish won was the help of the thousands of warriors from tribes who had been abused and tortured by the Aztecs. The Spanish alone weren't a significant force. And, Cortes well knew it. He was also a military genius, and a political genius. He knew how to get the other tribes on his side.

    I forget where I read it, but I did read a paper which said while Cortes thought the tribes were helping HIM conquer the Aztecs, the tribes thought Cortes was helping THEM conquer the Aztecs. They had no idea the large number of people available to come over from Spain. They had assumed once they conquered the Aztecs with the help of Cortes that they could then drive away the Spanish. It didn't work out real well for them.

    >> In my mind, it's highly possible some aspects of oral tradition simpy are not shared outside of a select few, perhaps these stories exist but are not shared as openly as other tales.

    In support of this, I have noticed that the most detail comes directly from my wife's family. Those who were raised on the Moctezuma property. The oral tradition of the buried treasure of Moctezuma is all over town, but the most detail comes from the Moctezuma direct descendants.

    They are the only ones who reported the gold found in 1910 with the skeleton. For example, the people who own the old picture post card from 1908 with the damaged church tower almost certainly do not know that the new one was built with the gold that was discovered around 1910 on the property.

    The people in this town are somewhat close-mouthed in a way. Or, at least my wife's family is. My wife said she would even be punished as a little girl if she told someone they had eaten chicken for supper. Her grandma told her that it's no one's business what we eat. Thump! Beat! Hit!

    My wife is in her 70's and is still very close-mouthed. She is always criticizing me for telling too much about myself. Even though the sorts of things I tell would be normal in the USA. As a result, I make friends much more easily here than she does.

    >>Or they can accept them as one more possibiity that's just as difficulty to verify or authenticate as any other.

    If I dared to out this location, much of what I am saying could easily be authenticated or verified. My obvious need for tight security is what precludes the verification of at least the oral tradition aspect. If you visited here, and won the confidence of the people and listened to their oral tradition for a while, that would be apparent that the oral tradition exists even though that does not prove the gold exists.

    And, Google searches for this location supplies considerable information on the Moctezuma family history in this region.

    ###
    Before I forget again, let me repeat my theory that there was more than one treasure. The one Moctezuma II had came from his father. His [great]grand-father was Moctezuma I. [three men], neither father of II nor son of Moctezuma I, was Emperor between them. [edited: Moctezuma I was great-grandfather of II. and three rulers were between them.]

    The fact that the father of II, who was not Emperor, received it from I then was allowed to leave it as heir to II indicates it was personal property of [great-]grand-father; then father; [then 2 uncles] then son, rather than being property of the Empire itself.

    The one where I live is clearly that treasure that was owned by II. So, since I can't imagine the men in between not having their own treasure accumulated during their time as Emperor, there had to have been several treasures. Again, nothing else makes sense.

    And, another treasure may well have been moved North for reasons having nothing to do with the Spanish. And, maybe not at the time of the Conquest. At the time of the Conquest was not a time to be sending thousands of people off on treasure burying errands.

    So, I cannot only believe there was more than one treasure, but am totally convinced of it. Nothing else makes sense.

    I now realize there is more to the Aztec government than a total dictatorship by the Emperor. I think I once read that the Emperor had to be elected from the most important men. Which also agrees with different Emperors having their own treasures.

    Now, did the Emperor get money from the government activities? Or, as Emperor did he own certain properties which produced his income? Or, was he sort of a person with a lease to certain properties in addition to his own properties? The only thing we can be sure of, is he was most definitely not owner of everything and everyone.
    Last edited by piegrande; Sep 13, 2014 at 04:57 PM.

  2. #32
    mx
    May 2010
    873
    369 times
    I don't know if I mentioned or not. My wife's grandma, born 1891, died 1985, year of the big earthquake in Mexico City, told them that before 1918 she saw the deed to the property, and the first owner listed was Moctezuma. She did not say I or II, but they acted as if it were II. This area was not yet conquered by the Aztecs until 1503.

    Again, this was consistent with the presence of Moctezuma's family here.

    In 1918, there was a major insurrection in rural Mexico. Raping; pillaging; and looting. The people in rebellion against the government burned all the government documents or at least most of them, including deeds and other government records.

    I got the impression from genealogy work that the births' and deaths were copied each year and sent to the state capitol. But, the deeds would not have been copied. Which is why grandma's memory is rather interesting.

  3. #33
    Charter Member

    Jun 2004
    332
    526 times
    Quote Originally Posted by piegrande View Post
    >>That assumes military genius was necessary.

    >>and subjigate other tribes but no the numericly inferior Spaniards.

    The only reason the Spanish won was the help of the thousands of warriors from tribes who had been abused and tortured by the Aztecs. The Spanish alone weren't a significant force. And, Cortes well knew it. He was also a military genius, and a political genius. He knew how to get the other tribes on his side.

    I forget where I read it, but I did read a paper which said while Cortes thought the tribes were helping HIM conquer the Aztecs, the tribes thought Cortes was helping THEM conquer the Aztecs. They had no idea the large number of people available to come over from Spain. They had assumed once they conquered the Aztecs with the help of Cortes that they could then drive away the Spanish. It didn't work out real well for them.
    You are indeed correct on that fact, and it's a fact that cannot be udnerstated. Though it is important to note that even with the assistance of the tribe memebers they picked up as they went, the Spaniards were still out numbered. The downfall of the Aztec empire cannot be solely attributed to this though, but it is certainly an aspect of history that is often overlooked 9though less so now than in the past). The idea of more than one treasure is also consistant with the beleif that the Aztecs might have hidden the treasure in 7 locations as a way to pay homacge to their ancestral home, the place of the 7 caves.
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  4. #34
    gb
    Ethnic YO

    Oct 2013
    Wedmore
    I use treasure Maps
    22
    3 times
    All Types Of Treasure Hunting
    Respect both points of view. I agree that looking at maps the terrain going north is very difficult, however if the Aztecs had followed the east coast going north than they would have travelled across much flater ground, not to forget the fact that the Aztec empire was very large so they would have initially travelled through their own territory. I don't belive that a already known location would have been suitable as the aztecs may have antipicated that if their empire fell the Spanairds would have been able to force the location out of the population through torture (someone would have cracked if it was a widely known location). Plus if the Gold went North they could have coorporated with local Indian groups who had cultural links from earlier periods. The Gold could have also gone South along the West Coast, as going east would have been suicide (to close to tlaxacan territory who were hostile), however the exact location remains unknown.

  5. #35
    gb
    Ethnic YO

    Oct 2013
    Wedmore
    I use treasure Maps
    22
    3 times
    All Types Of Treasure Hunting
    There is also the theory about the Aztecs retracing there initial migration back to Aztlan (their homeland) to hide their treasure. Aztlan is dubbed "land of the White Herons", and given the fact that names often relate to there geology or environment, it is most probably a place where White herons have a permanent location, maybe on a island. The South-Western and South-eastern USA are all home to White Herons as well as the eastern and Western Coasts running South- infact I have found some interesting locations which also supports the logical route for the treasure!

  6. #36
    mx
    May 2010
    873
    369 times
    Keep those ideas coming, folks. Though so far they all reinforce my opinion the gold was not taken that far away.

    Have you driven east of Mexico City to the coast then north? I have. As you leave Mexico City you climb to around 11,000 feet, then through mountains and eventually back to 7200 feet in Puebla.

    Then east, back up to 8200 feet, then all heck breaks loose. It is an 'interesting' drive down to Orizaba even on a high speed highway with tunnels drilled through the mountain. On that downhill run on a great highway, my fuel injection shuts off for much of 17 miles in a 5000 foot drop in altitude.

    Once you get to Vera Cruz then on North is not too bad, except a lot of water problems in the Tampico area.

    As bad as the terrain is going north from Mexico City, I would say that is the optimum direction.

    Let me add an oral tradition note here. Local oral tradition says that when the Tenocha's traveled to Vera Cruz, (the family not the messengers who probably had to follow more closely the current high speed highway as Cortes did,) they stopped here.

    I did not realize until right now this may have been prompted by the presence of Tlaxcala on the northern route, making it unsuitable for VIPs. I have long wondered why they would go on such a long route.

    I have no independent information pro or con on this tidbit of news. except to point out that would be why the Tenochas would all be aware of this as a hiding place, including good security provisions. They had all been here on recreational outings...

    Also, let me add a possible connection between this and the six skeletons found by a cousin when digging.

    If you remember, there were six skeletons side by side, but their ceremonial cups were stacked up, which would seem to indicate they were buried at the same time. That could have been a mass killing of bearers. Or a mass sacrifice which could also involve the bearers, er, witnesses.

    Without running a GPR over the site of the six skeletons, how do we know there aren't many such skeletons within a few meters? We don't.

    Let me mention here that the skeletons were found no more than 4 miles from a mound called today the tetele de Moctezuma. Which is a few hundred meters from a known ancient burial ground. Known only by locals; never registered with the government But still interesting.. Sure. I know the name Tetele de Moctezuma would be used all over Mexico, because Moctezuma had descendants all over Mexico. My own interpretation of the tetele is that it existed as an observation post, not as a burial mound. I came to this opinion based on what I could see when I was standing on top of it which was miles and miles.

    Very close to the six skeletons is a tetele belonging to the same uncle who owns the Casa de Moctezuma, though they are not on the same property. A year or two ago someone got permission to dig in the tetele and found something which caused the uncle to cancel permission. But, being close mouthed as have shown, I can't find out what they found.

    Note that the brain-storming on this comment does not rise to the elimination of inconsistencies as my main proposal does.

  7. #37
    gb
    Ethnic YO

    Oct 2013
    Wedmore
    I use treasure Maps
    22
    3 times
    All Types Of Treasure Hunting
    Very interesting feed piegrande. I happen to be going on a quest to try and find the lost Aztec gold on my gap-year, which I hope to start around January next year. I am looking into a number of sites and possibilities for the Gold all over Mexico as well as the Southern USA and down into Central America. You seem to have acquired local knowledge which is very interesting. I understand that you may want to keep certain facts to yourself but I would be very thankfull if you could send me some more detailed information on your theory about the Gold being located close to ancient Tenochtitlan (now mexico city), it would greatly aid in my research. Thanks

  8. #38
    mx
    May 2010
    873
    369 times
    I think my explanation of the theory the treasure is here was pretty complete. As complete as it could be without telling you where it is.

    Within the Aztec region so it could be retrieved if need be. A place where the treasure can be buried without the nearby natives seeing it done. On property of Moctezuma II. A place known to the members of the Moctezuma family because they went there from time to time. But, a place probably unknown to the Spanish, and this is supported by the fact no definite evidence of it was found by people of Spanish descent for over 400 years.

    All supported by local tradition and reinforced around 100 years ago by the discovery of a large piece of gold on a skeleton. As reported by a local leader of some import. And, reinforced by a foto which gave credence to the need for a new church bell at that time.

    If you re-read all my postings, you will find a wealth of theory on why it may be buried here. And if you read the other theories, you pretty much find: nothing but dreams and conjecture.

    So, what am I missing? Oh, yes, the gps coordinates, right? Hee, hee. How could I have forgotten them?

    If I find any more useful information supporting my theory/beliefs it will be posted for all to see. The location will not be posted.
    Last edited by piegrande; Sep 13, 2014 at 03:34 PM.
    youcefkouidri1 likes this.

  9. #39
    mx
    May 2010
    873
    369 times
    Here is some additional information. I bumped into my copy of MOCTEZUMA'S CHILDREN. It is a fairly recent book out of academia in the USA, with research ties to AGN in Mexico and Spain as well as Texas libraries. The author and his helpers go to see documents in closed collections in different places.

    My memory is gone. According to the chart on page 23 Tenochtitlan only had 11 rulers over its pre-Spanish existence.

    I thought there was one ruler between Moctezuma I (my wife's Tenocha ancestor) and II. Not so. I was ruler #5. II was #9. II was the great-grandson of I, not the grandson.

    II's father was #6. The brothers of II's father according to the chart were #7 and #8. So there were 3 rulers between I and II. Oops!

    I am not counting females who were temp rulers during short selection times.

    I need to dig through the text and scribble the dates of those rulers on that chart to save time.

  10. #40
    gb
    Ethnic YO

    Oct 2013
    Wedmore
    I use treasure Maps
    22
    3 times
    All Types Of Treasure Hunting
    Very much appreciated, I will go through all the information and add it to my research plan! And just out of interest, have you mounted any expeditions in search of the gold in Motecuzhoma's country ?

  11. #41
    mx
    May 2010
    873
    369 times
    I sometimes confuse easily. Can you tell me what you mean by Motecuzhoma's country?

    This is confusing to me. I live about 100 yards, more or less, from where I believe the treasure is buried. This land, including my own land here, was the property of Moctezuma II when he was alive. Motecuzhoma was one of several spellings now obsolete for II. There were others.

    An expedition may well involve my daily trip with cups of yogurt for the old uncles when my wife is gone. Seriously. She thinks yogurt is good for the old men. And I walk by about twenty feet from the probable burial site which is usually shut and locked. I am usually looking out very carefully for the meanest old goose I have ever known. If that goose is present and in a foul mood, I scurry past that location as fast as possible.

    The dogs are the next obstacle. There are many of them. They are used to me, because they have all known me from a very young age. But, one of the toughest men I know quakes with fear at the thought of going where those dogs are, and asks me to run errands there for him.

    And one of those dogs is probably insane. He even scares me. Very aggressive if I have not been there in a few days. Not just barking like the others, but very aggressively snapping and lunging. My BIL once visited us, and got a hole bit in his jeans, and that wasn't the dangerous dog.

    Those dogs are rather well known. I sometimes see men, grown men, standing up by my private road, shouting, "Buenos Dias!" Hoping someone hears them and comes out to talk to them. They have no desire to walk on the property.

    The last obstacle is the owners. Rumors that Mexicans cannot own firearms are incorrect. They can own small pistols and I think rifles up to .32, but not military grade. Also, they can legally own 12 gauge shotguns. No more comment needed.

    The oldest uncle in his younger years had an i.d. as LEO. In the USA, when they want to make a dangerous arrest, they send the SWAT team. In his younger years, when they had to make a dangerous arrest, they asked him to go along so signed him up as LEO to make it legal.

    As Emperor, it is probable that II owned land similar to this in various places around Mexico.

    It was not the property of I, or any of the earlier Tenocha's, because this region was not conquered by the Aztecs until around 1503, shortly after II became Emperor according to UNAM.

    Though there are gaps in the geneaology of the Moctezuma's after Cortes, until the 1700's or so, then after that again until the late 1800's, the evidence shows the land originally owned by II passed on to his heirs or descendants. Current owners are still descendants of the Moctezuma's. Due to a shortage of male heirs, the surname of the owners has changed. Since the insurrectionists in 1918 burned the land records, we will never know exactly who they were.

    Let me add that I do think all records are in off-limits library in our state capitol. Only academic researchers can access them.

  12. #42
    mx
    May 2010
    873
    369 times
    I mentioned the locked door. Historically, over many years, that door was unlocked and open all day long. Since the day I told them I was convinced the gold was in that room, the room has been locked except when they need something out of it.

    I took this as evidence that not only is the gold there, but they know it's there.

    If they didn't believe the gold was there, they'd have laughed at me and invited me to see the room again.

    That room is nothing but a stone floor, built by their father quite a few years ago. The walls have been plastered over and a roof of corrugated metal tacked on top. With piles of ear corn, and bags of shelled corn. A few spare cages for the fighting roosters and similar junk. The only way to get further information is with a GPR or dig amidst various and sundry pieces of high velocity lead whizzing past your head.

  13. #43
    gb
    Ethnic YO

    Oct 2013
    Wedmore
    I use treasure Maps
    22
    3 times
    All Types Of Treasure Hunting
    When I talk of Motecuzhoma's country I mean the property of Motecuzhoma, the location you are talking about which is located near where you live. Don't worry the truth surrounding the treasure will be uncovered soon. If I believe that the location you speak of is worth a look than I will go there, and I will find whatever is hidden in that room or surrounding area even if I have to risk bullets and hostile dogs. And I intend to raise a team before I sent out on my expedition for the lost treasure. It might be worthwhile that when I am in Mexico at the start of next year, we could meet up, you sound like you could be a important part of the team I intend to raise. Local knowledge is key, as well as someone who speaks Spanish and English- a natural translator! What say you ?

  14. #44
    mx
    May 2010
    873
    369 times
    Let me see if I understand you. You openly announce you are going to violate private property rights including my own and those of my wife's family; Mexican Federal law; kill family animals; and seem to include killing anyone who gets in your road. Then, you cheerily invite me to join you?

    But, before you try this, Google Dog The Bounty Hunter. Heh, heh.

    I call people like you Big Talkers.

    But, let me extend my comments on what happens to anyone who tries what you have in mind. I only got as far as the uncles themselves if their dogs didn't take care of you, which is most likely the case.

    Down town is the Commandancia. The local fuzz. They wear black military uniforms and bear full auto M-16's. These guys are bulked up and in top shape, not like too many overweight US cops at all.

    I am not sure, but I think they have top cops here because of the State prison in the area. They have to be ready to deal with a major uprising among Mexico's most dangerous prisoners.

    When they face a serious problem, they get on the horn and patrols from a number of nearby villages equally armed and trained come as fast as their high powered pickups can take the corners.

    They also call a certain number in the State capitol, and a large military helicopter kept on standby comes out. Probably takes no more than 30 minutes. No, more like 20 minutes.

    On each side is a large caliber machine gun with a gunner just like in the Viet Nam war.

    How do I know all this? Someone told me? No, we had an insurrection a couple years ago. A stupid cop thought a farmer was a wanted kidnapper so he took a patrol out and arrested him.

    His whole village came to the town. The streets were full of farmers with shotguns; pitchforks; and machetes. The other patrols accomplished nothing. But, when the military chopper aimed those large caliber machine guns down at them they remembered work at home.

    If the chopper can't deal with it, the Marines come. They can even take down the cartels.

    Thanks for the warning, dude. If I so much as imagine you are here the commandancia will be called. Good luck.

    Merely getting caught with even a .22 pistol as a foreigner will get you a minimum of five years without all the other crimes you seem to propose.

    Also, think about it. What you propose would be an act of war against Mexico, in international law.

    An additional note now that you have pulled my string. The only way out of that property is across my property as I told you earlier.

    All I have to do is pull my car across my driveway and your vehicles can't move. Ramming my car will not get you out. Would I sacrifice a good car to take you down? You bet!

    And if somehow you did make it past my car, guess where you have to go? DOWN TOWN.

    I tell you guys, you can't make up stuff like this dude.

  15. #45
    mx
    May 2010
    873
    369 times
    This last posting is part of the reason I wrote the thread recommending hunting in the USA.

    Just for fun, look at the logistics this guy needs. He is from GB. He gets on a plane to cross over to Mexico, and I assure you he won't have a fly swatter with him.

    He gets off the plane in Mexico with his luggage.

    So, where does he get what he needs to deal with a pack of tough dogs? He doesn't, most likely.

    Suppose he does get the weapons he needs, he stands a good chance of being stopped by local cops for a vehicle frisk before he gets here. Not just firearms gets him busted, but also bows and arrows. Even slings are illegal in some states, including mine.

    I have pretty much laid out what happens if he does make it here with fiirepower.

    And though it is virtually impossible, imagine he does find the treasure here. He goes to the airport and asks for charges on extra luggage. 15 tons of it.

    Anyone who thinks Mexico is a bunch of drunken tequila sippers dozing under the cactus plants and you can walk in and take what you want is going to have some rude surprises.

    Search in the USA.

    Anything in Mexico is strictly for kicks and curiosity, as I have been doing. Yes I believe the treasure is right down the street but it is going to stay there.

 

 
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