Indigenous with Jewish ancestry for Don Jose de la Mancha

[piegrande]

Did Cherokee Religion Originate Middle East

This one if while not directly related to Aztec treasure, does relate to discussions we have had.

Don Jose da la Mancha says Aztecs are descended from the Jewish people. This is most likely related to the articles of faith of the LDS. And, DNA y-marker testing shows no Jewish ancestry of the Aztec people.

However, the link posted does say the Creek and Cherokee people in SE USA do show Jewish ancestry. As well as a lot of other European ancestry. However, it is also believed the Jewish ancestry came not thousands of years ago, but around 400 years ago.

Still, it is interesting as it shows how DNA ancestry may not always be intuitive.

On that board a woman writes that she does not have Spanish or Portuguese ancestry, but does have Irish. Actually, the Irish were of Spanish and Portuguese ancestry, 5 to 10,000 years ago. My y-markers are very similar to my Mexican neighbors, because a majority of Mexican male ancestry is Spanish and Portuguese.

 

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[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

G'd morning Pie grande, so what is the DNA key of the missing Tribe?? so yer OIRISH eh ??

JOse

 

[cactusjumper]

Did Cherokee Religion Originate Middle East

This one if while not directly related to Aztec treasure, does relate to discussions we have had.

Don Jose da la Mancha says Aztecs are descended from the Jewish people. This is most likely related to the articles of faith of the LDS. And, DNA y-marker testing shows no Jewish ancestry of the Aztec people.

However, the link posted does say the Creek and Cherokee people in SE USA do show Jewish ancestry. As well as a lot of other European ancestry. However, it is also believed the Jewish ancestry came not thousands of years ago, but around 400 years ago.

Still, it is interesting as it shows how DNA ancestry may not always be intuitive.

On that board a woman writes that she does not have Spanish or Portuguese ancestry, but does have Irish. Actually, the Irish were of Spanish and Portuguese ancestry, 5 to 10,000 years ago. My y-markers are very similar to my Mexican neighbors, because a majority of Mexican male ancestry is Spanish and Portuguese.

Piegrande,

Just to make things a little more confusing, Mayan and Pima DNA is found in the Creek people. It's a popular theory that the Mayans may have been Jewish........

If there is any evidence that there was, truly, Jewish ancestry in prehistoric Native Americans, the LDS would have confirmed such evidence.

Take care,

Joe Ribaudo

 

[piegrande]

Don Jose, The article which you can read for yourself did not give the DNA numbers/letters. I would like to know that as well.

Joe, as far as I know the LDS have not found the DNA evidence of Jewish ancestry for Aztecs. It is a matter of faith with them, and I do not argue with matters of faith, even when I disagree with it. They believe it. I don't. End of debate. People deserve peace with their matters of faith. It is not my right to attack those matters of faith. I do have the right to say I don't agree, IMO. That is enough.

 

[piegrande]

Jewish Genes On Jewish DNA being constant over a hundred generations. But, the article does not tell the code. I will try to find it.

>>Only the Jewish people in the history of mankind has retained its genetic identity for over 100 generations, while being spread throughout the world –- truly unique and inspiring.

See, however, Y-chromosomal Aaron - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

A detailed Wiki with much number detail.

Most Jews are in the J haplogroup. We Irish are like R. American Indians are mostly Q and that includes Aztecs.

I am a pretty good brain stormer if I say so myself, and I can easily hypothesize how that 12th tribe, or the Aztecs, ended up with different y-marker DNA from all the rest. I am not saying I believe it happened, as I said just above. But, I can sure hypothesize on that issue, since all descendants of one man tend to pass on the same y-markers.

If this board has PM's and any LDS wants me to share that with them, please PM me. Discussions of faith items on this board don't last long.

 

[Oroblanco]

Cactusjumper wrote

If there is any evidence that there was, truly, Jewish ancestry in prehistoric Native Americans, the LDS would have confirmed such evidence.

That is quite a sweeping statement there Joe, are you that confident that you know all the details of LDS research to that degree? Thank you in advance,
Roy

 

[cactusjumper]

Cactusjumper wrote


That is quite a sweeping statement there Joe, are you that confident that you know all the details of LDS research to that degree? Thank you in advance,
Roy

Roy,

No one can know everything. Having said that, yes I am pretty confident that if the LDS had positive proof, they would not remain quiet about it.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Crosse De Sign]

Jewish Genes On Jewish DNA being constant over a hundred generations. But, the article does not tell the code. I will try to find it.

>>Only the Jewish people in the history of mankind has retained its genetic identity for over 100 generations, while being spread throughout the world –- truly unique and inspiring.

See, however, Y-chromosomal Aaron - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

A detailed Wiki with much number detail.

Most Jews are in the J haplogroup. We Irish are like R. American Indians are mostly Q and that includes Aztecs.

I am a pretty good brain stormer if I say so myself, and I can easily hypothesize how that 12th tribe, or the Aztecs, ended up with different y-marker DNA from all the rest. I am not saying I believe it happened, as I said just above. But, I can sure hypothesize on that issue, since all descendants of one man tend to pass on the same y-markers.

If this board has PM's and any LDS wants me to share that with them, please PM me. Discussions of faith items on this board don't last long.

Hi piegrande, and others, Interesting and Great topic:
People refer to Jews or Jewish people, as reference to all of the people of the tribes of Israel, when it is a slang word for Judea which includes only 2 tribes: Judah, and Benjamin, who became part of the kingdom of Judea also.

Israel however, separated after the death of King Solomon, and was the Kingdom of the other 10 northern tribes, that split off from Judea, who also, Israel, after finally escaping the some 200 years of Assyrian captivity, went north, crossing over the Caucasas Mountains, eventually migrating into and settling several European nations, and who knows where else they may have scattered...

Those 10 tribes later spread out even further, to what is now the U.S., Canada, Australia, and many other European countries...

Who all had they mixed with in the process? We know among others, of the Norse's (Vikings) European conquests, although it is possible that some of the clans of the Scottish Highlands may have avoided intermingling with the ruthless Norse invaders, keeping their bloodline closer to the so called Gaelic Peoples that originated from the house of Israel, but not all Israelites are "Jews"...

There are several clues in North America to speculate about the ancient Hebraic visitation, or occupancy? But that doesn't mean they were all of the house of Judah? For one, there's the Bat Creek Mound Stone that was found in Eastern Tennessee, having finally been interpreted by the worlds foremost leading Ancient Hebrew scholar.

The carvings were interpreted to say something to the effect of: May the Lion of the tribe of Judah be the fire poker that drives the Priests of the Lord back to Him", and said also, "For Judah". An ancient land claim? Very interesting because many people of the supposedly "Lost Tribes" are here, in America, not even knowing it!... Spread out just as Israel (Jacob) had prophesied of them before his death in Egypt, while his son Joseph was second in command to only the pharaoh in all the land...

Who all those visitors may have mixed with, is a good question. and it is a known fact that there were old Choctaws who knew the Courses of Abijah, an ancient Hebrew Priestly Religious Ceremony performed by the ancient Priests unto their God Yahovah, "The Ancient Of Days"
How did those Choctaws know that?

But not all of the Israelites, of all the tribes are "Jewish"... Thanks, ~: CDS :~

 

[Oroblanco]

Just a side note here, the DNA tests of Cherokees found "only" 3% of them had Jewish ancestry. This was then pointed to as "proof" they were NOT of Jewish origins, when in reality the results should have been ZERO percent, if all Amerindians really came walking across the Bering straits land bridge. The fact that three percent were found to have Jewish ancestors, should be a red flag that at least some Jewish people are in the family tree of some Amerindian tribes. The tests have also turned up N-haplotypes, which are associated with Mediterranean peoples whom were neighbors of the ancient Hebrews, and some of whom were the best seafarers in the world at that time.
Cherokee Studies

Please do continue,
Oroblanco

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Keep it up gentlemen, luv ya, you are slowly locking in my 'wild theory' and one that may well upset the Latinos in the US demanding back the south / western states as part of their heritage, 'Aztlan' when in reality, It lies in S/E Europe---------.


don Jose de La Mancha

 

[piegrande]

Interesting stuff. One precaution. There was around 500 years after Europeans were known to have come to the Western Hemisphere before DNA tests were developed. So, it is a hard row to hoe to be sure about a 3% figure and what it means.

Which is why it is a bad idea to dispute items of faith, except as a personal belief.

I have a 'grand-daughter' whose father's name is Gualavel. I asked where the name came from and he said it is indigenous. I mentioned it to a doctor friend, and he said not possible. no indigenous tribe ever had a name like that.

We googled Gualavel, and it turns out it is only found in Portugal. Somewhere since 1541 when that small village was founded and today, a man from Portugal married into the local community, and his name is still used there. But, there are no written records, and no oral tradition for that name there. Over that 500 years, unrecorded things happened.

 

[Crosse De Sign]

Interesting stuff. One precaution. There was around 500 years after Europeans were known to have come to the Western Hemisphere before DNA tests were developed. So, it is a hard row to hoe to be sure about a 3% figure and what it means.

Which is why it is a bad idea to dispute items of faith, except as a personal belief.

I have a 'grand-daughter' whose father's name is Gualavel. I asked where the name came from and he said it is indigenous. I mentioned it to a doctor friend, and he said not possible. no indigenous tribe ever had a name like that.

We googled Gualavel, and it turns out it is only found in Portugal. Somewhere since 1541 when that small village was founded and today, a man from Portugal married into the local community, and his name is still used there. But, there are no written records, and no oral tradition for that name there. Over that 500 years, unrecorded things happened.

The 3 mounds found there in Bat Creek, of the Eastern Tennessee Valley, near the Little Tennessee River, were excavated by professional archaeologists, hired by the U.S. Govt. for The Smithsonian Institute, as documented in their reports, in 1889...

The evidence acquired there, of ancient Paleo Hebrew, has been carbon dated, to between 46 BC, to 126 AD... The 9 skeletons were carefully arranged on the original surface of the earth, and covered with red clay... The tablet was found underneath one skull... These Ancient bones were then carbon dated, and more recently DNA Tested...

This is the exact same area that the great Cherokee Chief, Sequoia, had been born, who later invented the first Indian Alphabet that utilized some Ancient Hebrew Letters... Coincidence? The Cherokee Holidays and Festivals also coinciding with Ancient Paleo Hebrew Social and Religious Culture...

Other evidence is the two copper-zinc bracelets from The Mediterranean, made of materials and techniques of early as 45 BC...

This is all scientific data, gathered and proven by the Smithsonian Scientists and Archeologists, beyond any doubt whatsoever... The skeletons were scientifically proven to be the remains of 1 st C. AD Hebrew Priests...

The first century Hebrew/Cherokee findings in the Bat Creek Eastern Tennessee Valley,
have however, nothing in common whatsoever, with anything found to have been on this continent supposedly originating from in the 1500's...
Thanks, ~: CDS :~

 

[cactusjumper]

The 3 mounds found there in Bat Creek, of the Eastern Tennessee Valley, near the Little Tennessee River, were excavated by professional archaeologists, hired by the U.S. Govt. for The Smithsonian Institute, as documented in their reports, in 1889...

The evidence acquired there, of ancient Palo Hebrew, has been carbon dated, to between 46 BC, to 126 AD... The 9 skeletons were carefully arranged on the original surface of the earth, and covered with red clay... The tablet was found underneath one skull... These Ancient bones were then carbon dated, and more recently DNA Tested...

This is the exact same area that the great Cherokee Chief, Sequoia, had been born, who later invented the first Indian Alphabet that utilized some Ancient Hebrew Letters... Coincidence? The Cherokee Holidays and Festivals also coinciding with Ancient Palo Hebrew Social and Religious Culture...

Other evidence is the two copper-zinc bracelets from The Mediterranean, made of materials and techniques of early as 45 BC...

This is all scientific data, gathered and proven by the Smithsonian Scientists and Archeologists, beyond any doubt whatsoever...

The first century Hebrew/Cherokee findings in the Bat Creek Tennessee Valley,
have nothing in common, whatsoever, with anything found to have been on this continent in the 1500's...
Thanks, ~: CDS :~

CDS,

Bat Creek inscription - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

?

Joe Ribaudo

 

[Crosse De Sign]

CDS,

Bat Creek inscription - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

?


Joe Ribaudo

Yeah, That's what they say about anything they can't, or don't want to explain, like the truth...
Because it would crush many of their many false biased secular humanistic theories, and lies...
No surprise, as they continually attempt to Terminate the Truth, and Promote Their Lies...
It's so much Easier, than Admitting they are Mostly Wrong... About Everything True...

Thanks, ~: Crosse :~

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Hi Ho Joe, just like my Tayopa matches every criteria except an admission by the Jesuits that they were mining, including the two young Jesuits that were self admittedly looking for a mine near Chinapas. I have posted a story on them.

Incidentally Wickiepedia still refuses to admit that I have the fabulous Tayopa even though they quote Dobie as a source, hmmmmm


And as for the Bat Creek writngs, I noticed that the majority of the specialists or scientists, agreed that they were genuine ??

Where is my coffee??

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[piegrande]

I for one accept the presence of people of Europe, in the Western Hemisphere, in ancient times. There is a book I have, printed some decades ago, which attempts to document the Americas as the source of Phoenician copper. (I think it's Phoenician.)

Chemical testing of old copper items sold by the P. is correct for the Americas.

And, when the Europeans first came to the Americans, I think it was in Canada, they found a quarry, that is, an open mine, not a tunnel, I guess you'd call it, for copper. He believed the Phoencians had regular scheduled trips to the Americas for copper. He is not popular among historians who think no such thing is possible.

And, growing up out of the middle was a tree with hundreds of years of rings in it.

He also claims there were ancient writings on stones, which correlate with ancient European languages.

Today is class day, and despite being Holy Week, several students are coming. I have 6 females, from age 11 to 24, 1 male around 15. The women here are much more ambitious than the men, at least in time of education. Otherwise, I'd dig through my books and give you the title and author.

The ancient presence of Europeans is a different matter from faith based belief that certain indigenous tribes were from Europe. We can debate the former, but not the latter.

 

[Tesoro Escondido]

I don't know if this will help or hinder this topic, but here is a little info on the LDS belief regarding Jewish ethnicity in the Americas. The Book of Mormon describes three separate groups of people who arrived in the Americas: 1-A group from the Middle East who came shortly after the tower of Babel, origin unknown; 2-The main group that the BoM speaks of, coming from Israel, from the tribe of Manasseh through Joseph; 3-A smaller group from the land of Israel with at least one member who was from the tribe of Judah. Contrary to popular belief, the LDS church does not claim that all Native Americans are of Semitic descent. There may well have been, and most likely were, several different migrations from around the world to the American continents, the Book of Mormon peoples being quite possibly a minority.

In regard to "Jewish" DNA markers, more than one haplogroup has been shown to have Jewish ethnicity. I am using the generic "Jewish" meaning, because specifically only those from the tribe of Judah are Jews, but we tend to lump any of the tribes of Israel into being "Jewish". We also need a little understanding when talking about DNA haplogroups. Y-DNA means from the paternal, or male descent only: My father's, father's, father's, father, ect. Only males have Y-DNA. Mitochondrial DNA (Mt) is just the opposite: My mother's, mother's, mother, ect. However, males can be tested for Mt-DNA but it is only passed through their mothers. Back to Jewish haplogroups. It is true most people of Jewish descent are from haplogroup J, but there are other haplogroups with Jewish descent or ethnicity, such as Y-DNA haplogroup E, which is the second largest group. There are still others. Some tribes from the Great Lakes region have been shown to be from haplogroup X, which is known to have Jewish as well as Mediterranean lineage. However, this X group has apparently been amongst these tribes for much longer than would accommodate the LDS time frame of an American continent arrival of +/- 587 BC for groups #2 and 3 mentioned above.

How's that for a first post?

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Absolutely perfect my new friend. You have definitely earned a cuppa Java. It means that I wasn't completely idiotic in my Postulation of the Aztec migration.

Jose

 

[Crosse De Sign]

The Ancient American Hebrews Were Teachers

CDS,

Bat Creek inscription - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

?

Joe Ribaudo

Hi folks, One more thought on:
Those same Hebrew Priests that were ceremonially buried
in the Bat Creek Mounds, were also teachers that traveled,
apparently somewhat like an annual convention all the way
up in the Ohio River Valley, via the fluent waterways... Also there,
more carvings were also found, including the ten commandments...

They held meetings with the Ancient Native Peoples of this great land,
taught them of their God, & they not only believed and were converted,
they are still in existence though perhaps thoroughly mixed with other
races and peoples (even of course some of the other original tribes of Israel,
maybe their own kinsmen & women, however likely not widely known if at all)...

So it's not that strange, to realize that there were Hebrew migrations,
with inter mingling, or teaching...
They (indigenous peoples) must have found their beliefs and ways,
to be very acceptable, and good, and practiced them consistently, some several
of the beliefs proudly still carried over for so many centuries...

And, there's the fact that though the land grabbing Europeans tried to
completely wipe them out even with treachery
(diseases hidden in blankets for trades or gifts killed unsuspecting millions),
still many survived, with an old practice of customs
and rituals, that included the belief in a "Great Spirit"...

So, they were Israeli missionaries, no later than about 1/4 into the 2nd C. AD,
and the people that interred them so respectfully, were undoubtedly none other than,
the Ancient Mound Builder Culture, which I had the pleasure to discuss at length as part
of my research, with an highly educated and very knowledgeable Lady Chickasaw Tribal Elder, who smiled and said "we are of the mound builder culture"...

Well, the Chickasaws and the Choctaws, are legendary brother tribes of old.
So there's obviously 3 ancient N. American indigenous tribes (including Cherokee for sure)
nailed to the knowledge of the visitors from Judea, where is also, Jerusalem...

Who else then? I rest my case for now... [Edit] But...

Very surprising to me (because of my own partial Cherokee, Choctaw,
& Seminole Indian ancestry), the Cherokees, while apparently part of the Ancient N. American Mound Builders Culture, are also thought to have migrated possibly from the Ancient Persia area? Wow! I'm goin ta' go figure on that one, need more research...
~: Crosse :~

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

5 cuppas for you my friend, looking more and more as if I am 'not' a nut case, on my migration theory

Don Jose de La Mancha