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  • 1 Post By jeff-gordon

Thread: Why was the gold left there for 500 years?

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  1. #1
    mx
    May 2010
    850
    351 times

    Why was the gold left there for 500 years?

    So, if I am right and the gold is here as I believe, and if the family knew it was there, why did it stay there for 500 years? Actually,that is a good question. I bet you think I have an answer, and you are correct. Whether the answer is correct is another matter.

    The descendants of Moctezuma II did not quickly sink into poverty. II had offspring all over central Mexico, and often they were very important people in their regions.

    Some of his descendants went to Spain to live, and were granted by the Spanish government, status and incomes of nobility ending only in the Twentieth Century. They still maintain privately their correct titles, and have sued for their monies to be restarted.

    I don't have a lot of information on the other descendants around Central Mexico though I would like to, just in case those other regions have similar oral traditions.

    In my region as late as the 18th Century, the head of the Moctezuma family still owned between 10 and 15 square miles of land, sharply down from the 17th Century. There would have been a major defense force around the home just as we see for very rich people today. Caciques were not expected to personally fight every man who had a quarrel with them, any more than governors in the USA are expected to personally deal with anyone who attacks them.

    They were wealthy with all the land and resident workers. They did not need large quantities of gold for anything. Assuming they knew it was there...

    By the mid-20th Century, land was sharply reduced. However, the descendant was still an important man, serving at least three times as president of the municipio. By this time, the area would have been fairly civilized, with few indigenous on the warpath. So, even the normal family members and ranch employees would produce considerable safety with the police as a back-up.

    That man several times told his offspring if he didn't put something in the ground, he wasn't going to take it out. I believe they were raised up in the way he wanted them to go. Even if he knew it was there he had personal moral reasons to think it should stay there.

    But, also in the 20th Century, when it became technically possible for someone to dig up the gold, the Federal government became more powerful, and decreed that all antiquities were the property of the Federal Government. Based on news items I have seen in recent years, obtaining and selling ancient gold items will get you tossed in the slammer. And, I do not mean for 24 hours until your attorney gets bail, either.

    Perhaps the family did not know the gold was there. Anything is possible over that many years. And, they also viewed it as pure pulque talk. Until they found the skeleton and the gold piece around 100 years ago at which time the old man figured out, "Hey, the legends are true!" If I can figure it out, so could he. He was a smart man, though I have the advantage of the old books which he didn't.

    Anyway, there are very valid reasons no one took the gold out over that 500 years. And, today the reasons are even graver to leave it there. You will not see that treasure in your lifetime.

  2. #2
    mx
    May 2010
    850
    351 times
    A technical note. Look at my name on the above posting. Just below it is a Mexican flag. I assume the URL has a server program which catches my IP number and posts the correct national flag in that location. I know of no way to spoof it if I wanted to.

    I will be curious if next week when I return to the USA for my annual visit, if the server will then put up the US flag since I will be using an american IP.

  3. #3
    mx
    May 2010
    850
    351 times
    I was just remembering. Seems like I read that the Tenochas in the Cortes period or earlier sent daughters to be married as far north as Zacatecas and as far south as Oaxaca. Though that is by poor memory.

    And, somewhere I read that it was theorized that daughters were sent as far south as Guatemala.

    Today, Moctezuma's can be found almost everywhere, including in the USA and those mentioned in Spain.

    By the way, at times the Mocterzuma's descendants ran a lot to daughters, and the family name was going to die out in this location. So, being the most important people in the region, they simply decreed the family name stayed as Moctezuma and did not change to the husband's name. By the late 19th Century, though, that did not work any more, and the family name changed to the husband's surname.

    I only personally know of one person here named Moctezuma, a woman in her 90's. But, they are all over the region if you hit the phone books.

  4. #4
    us
    Sep 2013
    Michigan
    Garrett ACE 250 Pro Pointer
    249
    731 times
    Piegrande-

    First of all, I've greatly enjoyed your posts so a big cuppa Joe and a thank you coming your way! Please continue to give is all the information you can (except the exact location of course! Don't need unwanted visitors to what I imagine is a beautiful piece of land you love on!).

    Secondly, I'm just curious as to what is it about your property (besides family heritage/legend) that makes you feel the treasure is there? I'm not looking for you to give details that may give the location, simply characteristics. I wouldn't imagine the Aztecs would just find a nice secluded spot, dig a hole, cover it with stone, and leave. Is it near a cave, a rock overhang/cliff, or another natural formation? There would have to be something that kept it out of site. Maybe the piece of land is in a deep barranca?

    Thank you in advance-

    J.A.

    P.S. My apologies if you've addressed these natural characteristics of your home in previous threads/posts.
    All the best-

    J.A.A.


    "May the best of your yesterdays,
    be the worst of our tomorrows."

  5. #5
    mx
    May 2010
    850
    351 times
    Actually, yes I did. The problem is the explanation was spread over a number of threads over quite a period of time. They are all there on this Aztec Gold forum. A lot of reading. If you want to do that make notes.

    The first thing was that since I first visited here over 30 years ago (when I did not believe a word of it) the people here all have the same oral tradition, in lesser or greater detail, that the treasure was buried here. It took me a long time to change my interpretation of this from ALCOHOLIC LEGEND to ORAL TRADITION. Without that oral tradition, I would have never thought of this location as the one place in the world for the treasure to be buried.

    This tradition is present all over the community, though much stronger in the Moctezuma descendants who live or lived on the property. If someone finds another community with the same oral tradition, and supporting history, my theory falls apart like a cookie in milk.

    I learned the Tenochas almost certainly owned this land before Cortes. I learned there was a possibility the family came here on trips and I am guessing on vacation, if they had such things in those days.

    There is a ruin of a house here. My wife lived in that house until she was 14 and went to Mexico City to high school. Some evidence would indicate it was inhabited pre-Cortes, as well as the oral tradition saying so. That house was built to essentially constitute a mini-fort. And, a place where they could dig out of sight. Which would have been an important part of the decision to bring it here. Other places, such as AZ, would have involved unprotected burial work.

    Then I learned my wife's grandpa, an important local official for many years, reported that around 1910 they found the skeleton in the place I think the treasure is buried, (that is, the house) and used the gold neck piece to buy a new church bell. He was considered by all who knew him to be a reliable source. He put his own son in jail for public intox...

    I already had a ~1908 photo showing the church tower under repair so that was consistent with the need for a new church bell in 1910.

    What I didn't have was the gold. Cortes said the bulk of the gold fell in the lake during Triste Noche. Diaz, believed by many to have been Cortes under a pen name (since no Bernal Diaz was ever recorded anywhere) reported the Aztecs said they recovered most of it. Diaz also put the treasure weight at (memory here) 700,000 pesos. Google for peso weight and multiply it out. I did.

    Diaz also said around 80 of the Tlaxcalans got away with their gold. A cousin estimated how much one soldier could carry and still run for his live. We came up with 3 to 5 tons of gold that Cortes got from Noche Triste, which left 15 tons.

    Then, I kept going around and around through all the available evidence until I realized there was no inconsistency left.

    Then I did a lot of "empathic' thinking. Trying to put myself in their boots (did they have boots ) and thus understand if it made sense to bring it here. Yes it did. Far enough away that it hasn't been physically found for nearly 500 years, but still on Aztec property and within retrieval possibility. And, plenty of local security, with a safe place to dig and bury without the potentially hostile natives seeing a thing.

    All this took me over 30 years, mostly as a doubter. More than a doubter. A sarcastic doubter.

    Finally, I realized all was consistent. And, all was exactly what the survivors of II would have done under the circumstances. Very logical; very military in planning and execution. If I had been in Tenochtitlan while they were discussing it I would have agreed that this was the logical place to put it. (Hey, it worked!!!)

    I also looked as best as I could at the more common theory, which is they took it to the USA. That never made sense in any case. That would be something the Aztecs might have done in a burst of religious fervor, IF they knew where to go. No records have been found as to knowing where they came from. except they were great astronomers, so might have been able to go back with an astronomer guide. But, the distances and problems of marching thousands of miles with 15 tons of gold never made any military sense.

    I cannot rule out the possibility that other treasures existed, accumulated by the other emperors, and were taken north. Just not the treasure of II.

    In my own heart and in my own head, I am convinced the treasure is right here. I have said 100 yards away from where I type, but thinking more about it, it is probably more like 200 yards.

    But. over the years, many people have been convinced in their hearts and in their heads of something and were all wet. I know this very well.

    The difference is, I am not dedicating my life to digging up this treasure. If I did, the government would confiscate it all, and soon enough it would all disappear from its official storage place. I am very happy in the belief that treasure is right here.

    The main reason I tell all this is to urge caution on those who believe it is somewhere else, with virtually no supporting evidence nor logic behind it.

    I did read at one time an old Aztec tale, translated to Spanish, about an expedition back to the home land. Part way through the tale, something strange was reported, and after some study realized they had just described what we would call teleportation. I dismissed the expedition as some sort of drug induced memory. (No, I don't know where that report is. I have read too much over the years.)

    Anyway, the short answer is the house would have been the safe place, both during burial and after the burial.

  6. #6
    mx
    May 2010
    850
    351 times
    To further emphasize the human thought processes as part of the decision to come here, the evidence would imply that the people making the decision to bring it here had previously visited the property and knew before they left Tenochtitlan which room it would be buried in and already had the plan to bury it, and most likely where to dispose of the witnesses... It was a highly informed decision IMO.

  7. #7
    au
    Oct 2013
    Brisbane
    17
    4 times
    Relic Hunting
    You're certain you've found it, but won't dig to prove it, even to yourself?

  8. #8
    mx
    May 2010
    850
    351 times
    What can I say, BTF? I have explained in great detail the reasons no one will ever dig that treasure. The legal issues.The possible criminal issues. The resistance of the owner. The large amount of work and the time involved to dig it up. Yet, you seem to wonder plaintively why I don't dig? Perhaps you haven't read my postings?

    Those issues kept it there for nearly 500 years. The society is even more regulated today than during the 500 years which have passed.

    The only way it will be dug is if the government realizes it is there, IMO.
    Last edited by piegrande; Oct 12, 2014 at 08:06 PM.

  9. #9
    Charter Member
    SITE BRAVO DETAINEE

    Dec 2012
    10,950
    9022 times
    Metal Detecting
    well, iffn I knew where a treasure was I would have to dig to know for certain. You have much more self control that do I
    L.C. BAKER likes this.

  10. #10
    mx
    May 2010
    850
    351 times
    Please read How to dig out the gold wherein I explained in great detail the work involved in digging there. I have personally dug in the same soil, less than 100 yards away, so I am not at all theorizing.

    I assumed a detailed and accurate explanation of what is involved in digging here, where the owners do not want you to dig anyway, would squelch these questions. I guess not. And, I have no idea how to make it any clearer.

  11. #11

    Dec 2012
    on the rocks - so cal county line
    Gold bug pro / Whites coin master II
    1,170
    465 times
    All Types Of Treasure Hunting
    So your at a dead end ?
    You just can't go digging up peeps property without asking . GL
    Now that the dirty work is done all's that is left is the digging

  12. #12
    us
    Sep 2012
    Nebraska City, Nebraska
    2,870
    2363 times
    K.G.C. Cache
    Sounds very interesting, I enjoyed this thread and your discussion. Recovery is a Bi@tch! All that excitement on the trail of discovery only to find, and approach, what seem like impossible goals...

    L.C.
    Last edited by L.C. BAKER; Oct 22, 2014 at 08:19 PM.
    "All truths are easy to understand once they are discovered; the point is to discover them." ----- Galileo Galilei


    http://www.amazon.com/The-Ones-That-.../dp/1499593694

  13. #13
    mx
    May 2010
    850
    351 times
    It is hard to describe how I feel. I do not feel really negative about the reality we will never be able to dig there. At least under present circumstances.

    The owner is in bad health, in his late 70's. He has a son who would sell his mother for the right price.

    So, maybe if the young uncle dies? Hee, hee. (Not hee hee a beloved uncle might die; but hee hee the greedy son might dig. In Texas, they call a man like my uncle, a Good Ole' Boy. That is a term that meant nothing to me until I met one.)

    No, I am satisfied in my own head the gold is there. Just as there will be no absolute proof it is there, there will also be no absolute proof it is not there. So, in my head and heart it is there.

    For me, it was a major intellectual exercise. I studied for years, and in the end, all inconsistencies were eliminated.

    While I cannot say, "The gold is there." I can say the gold MUST be there. There is no evidence at this time that it can be any other place. Good enough for me.

    Be assured, though, that as I obtain further information, such as new books or such things I will analyze them all for anything which shows the gold might not be there.

    Let me add that if I were able to dig, I would end up with the same exact amount of gold I have now. Zero ounces. The government would take all, and any attempt on my part to take the gold is a crime and I would go to jail. So, not digging or digging has the same result.

 

 

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