Randy Bradfords Montezuma Presentation: The Video

[piegrande]

LOA, good points. First, try to think as the people of that time would have thought. That is part of the reason I concluded it is just down the street.

Military strategists who knew where their summer vacation home was, within two days travel, and knew there was a safe place to bury it without witnesses from the hostile tribe adjacent to them.

As far as verifying the treasure existed, it was Bernal Diaz, whether or not he was really Cortes, who claimed to have seen nearly 20 tons of treasure, and that the Aztecs said it had mostly been retrieved from the Lake, which was the final link to my decision.

Also, of all those places listed, my theory definitely has gold found on the premises, around 1910, per family witness. This was consistent with the use of the found gold for a church bell, by the photo which shows the church tower damaged in the same time period. Most of these places do not involve verified presence of gold.

As far as proof this treasure was never found, the skeleton on top with the gold neck piece clearly was not moved in 400 years. So, it is unlikely whatever was underneath, if anything was, was moved for the same time period.

I vacillate. At this time, I am back in It's Here mode. Next week, who knows?

The most important point LOA made was it's property of Mexico. To even dig for it will almost certainly involve serious prison time. If you survive.

I have not changed my mind at all on my belief they did not take the gold months away where it could never be retrieved. They kept that stuff close, even to leaving it in the house Cortes slept in.

I am also tending to believe that different emperors had their own treasure. That would explain all the contradictions, including the possibility that some of the treasures were taken far away. Just not at the time they were dying in large numbers. You don't send out a major convoy of sick people to travel for months.

I also believe it is possible that other tribes in the USA region had gold in quantities. Just not Moctezuma's gold.

I realize Cortes and modern Americans use the name Montezuma. There is no reason to believe the tribes north of the border used anything but his correct name in the time period we are looking at. So, when someone says the Indians said it was Montezuma's gold, they negate their own word. In that time it wasn't even Moctezuma, that came later. It was a variety of things, including Motecuzoma among others. Never Montezuma.

A warning on Ciudad Victoria. That is one of the most dangerous places in Tamaulipas in recent times. Buses shot up. People kidnapped. Illegals from further south held prisoner. (A bunch were freed in a recent week.) The bus from Mexico City my wife used to take passed through Cd. Victoria. Now, it goes by Monterrey. And, it is rumored her bus line pays so many pesos a bus trip for being left un-robbed.

A Mexican truck driver told my SIL when he comes through Cd. Victoria, he stops somewhere and pays so much a truck load. If they do not, they don't make it to the border.

Don't even think of going to Cd. Victoria.

 

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[piegrande]

I did take time to watch the video. Interesting, but it was more like a potpourri of legends and seemed to have little to do with the issue of gold being here or not.

Anything over about 10 minutes, I usually have to plan ahead. And, when I do that, even longer gets worked past.

As Randy does, I suggest keeping gold in Mexico as a mental exercise and don't think of looking for it. Stay in the USA. I don't think Moctezuma's treasure is there, but they may well be treasure there. And, a lot of it.

 

[captain1965]

Well done Randy. Don't forget Babcock says. "Chicomoztoc (the seven caves) is the legendary place from which the Aztec Indians believe they originally came. (...) It is generally believed that the Aztec were several tribes molded into one and living in Mexico. It is conceivable, according to what we know of Aztec legend, that each of the sibling tribes had been conceived in the womb of Mother Earth (a cave) and when each tribe was sufficiently developed and had boys, girls, moms, dads, warriors, priests, and a chief, the cave was opened and they were thrust into the world somewhere north of Mexico." Babcock Believed the "Rosalee letters" and his research put Chicomoztoc in the superstition mountains in Az. And according to descriptions in the Rosalee letters, Aztec artifacts (that match what was given to Cortez by Montezuma) were in the described cave.

 

[Randy Bradford]

pictures no , the real thing in person ,yes. but from tomb findings done by mexican archeologists and at the anthropological museum. also farmers who have found pre columbian atrifacts on their property. when you say the aztec hoard im assuming you are refering to the one known by americans as moctezuma treasure , that i have not seen and noone else has either i think. the relato states they marched 43 days north on a known trail until they arrived at a great lake then marched 4 days due west into a canyon with a series of caves and peaks 7 caves and 7 peaks. which is at the head of a canyon and there are pre columbian ruins at the mouth. this is a document that is in posession of people and the museum i mentioned above and supposedly has been authenticated. that was the gist of the article and conclusions of the archeologists.

43 days North on a known trail could certainly put them pretty far North...if you figure 20 miles per day, on known roads this is pretty manageable, that's 860 miles. Kanab, UT is 1830 miles away. So the stated journey is a little less than half the proposed end spot (assuming Kanab is the end, my video clearly indicates anyone of a few dozen spots could be home to the loot).

7 Caves and 7 Peaks would be consistent with the Aztec creation story and likewise consistent with what was being told in Johnson's Canyon by Freddie Crystal, though not necessarily consistent with the Three Lakes region.

Known trails is consistent with my own theory that a party traveling would use known trade routes which would provide established areas for water, food and shelter while putting them in contact with trade-friendly tribes who could provide additional logistical support.

The one thing I think of, it makes no sense for people to return from hiding a treasure because they become a liability in keeping it hidden. In this respect, if the party members never returned the idea of "2 moons North" or even something as specific as "43 days North" take on a new meaning. With no returning members to report there is no way to quantify how far they really went. It's just one of the missing details that make this such an interesting story, and one that is never likely to be solved.

Randy

 

[Randy Bradford]

I did take time to watch the video. Interesting, but it was more like a potpourri of legends and seemed to have little to do with the issue of gold being here or not.

Anything over about 10 minutes, I usually have to plan ahead. And, when I do that, even longer gets worked past.

As Randy does, I suggest keeping gold in Mexico as a mental exercise and don't think of looking for it. Stay in the USA. I don't think Moctezuma's treasure is there, but they may well be treasure there. And, a lot of it.

piegrande, your assessment of my presentation is accurate. I start with the assumption that the treasure is true (and I think it's well established that it is) with the question being where did it go? My goal was to provide as many of the legends as I have recovered for consideration with as unbiased an approach as possible using obtainable written accounts as a foundation. This was never intended to answer the question about where the treasure ended up, but rather was meant as both a collection point for dying legends and a chance for others to ask themselves the question about where the treasure might be, what does the evidence suggest, and in light of the improbability of a treasure that size coming this far North, what could be interpreted or assumed to make that possibility more likely. The purpose was to present data for consideration, discussion and new lines of academic research. This was never meant to be as much of a "treasure story," as it was intended to be a collection and assessment of folklore.

The upside to an approach like this is I don't get hung up much in bias. I'm not trying to prove that a treasure i haven't found is in one specific area. If I had an idea it would close my mind to so many other possibilities that are every bit as viable and worth consideration...even your own. The purpose here isn't to sell an idea, but to preserve part of the Southwest culture with minimal regards for its legitimacy. I'm not trying to prove anything, I'm trying to PRESERVE a great deal.

I do appreciate your feedback and efforts to watch the video, I know it's not an undertaking lightly executed. I thoroughly enjoyed presenting my research, perhaps my sense of self-preservation in an academic sense should dictate I be less open mouthed about my work. For my part, it's not worth doing if I can’t share it and it's certainly not worth doing if its merits can't be discussed.

I guess my question to you would be, how do you think the video could be better executed in terms of content, particularly given what I have said regarding my goals and motivations?

Randy

 

[Randy Bradford]

Well done Randy. Don't forget Babcock says. "Chicomoztoc (the seven caves) is the legendary place from which the Aztec Indians believe they originally came. (...) It is generally believed that the Aztec were several tribes molded into one and living in Mexico. It is conceivable, according to what we know of Aztec legend, that each of the sibling tribes had been conceived in the womb of Mother Earth (a cave) and when each tribe was sufficiently developed and had boys, girls, moms, dads, warriors, priests, and a chief, the cave was opened and they were thrust into the world somewhere north of Mexico." Babcock Believed the "Rosalee letters" and his research put Chicomoztoc in the superstition mountains in Az. And according to descriptions in the Rosalee letters, Aztec artifacts (that match what was given to Cortez by Montezuma) were in the described cave.

I have to confess, running across someone else that's read Babcock's book is exciting. I was fortunate enough to get a copy directly from him some 15 years ago or so. Since then his son has republished the book and given it a second life of sorts, though I have no idea how many people have seen or read it in it's second printing. I was fortunate enough to find a copy at a used book store or I wouldn't even be aware it had been reprinted.

Babcock did put SOME of the treasure in the Superstition Mountains (he's not the first to make that suggestion incidentally). Babcock believed the treasure was secured in 7 separate cache sites including one in California, Victorio Peak and a number of others that he thought were possible (don't have the book handy to refer back to). Really, his entire premise was built around the idea that the 7 caves legends corresponded with 7 cache sites that featured geographic similarities including double topped mountain peaks and a horseshoe shaped terrain feature.

Babcock was at one time within driving distance of me though I've never made the drive. It would be interesting to see if he's still alive, still there and interested in a sit down. I bet he makes for a fascinating interview. I used to have his son on my Myspace friend list but haven’t used that in ages.

Randy

 

[Randy Bradford]

Your leads are interesting Randy...I hope you're onto something.... my leads are not bad either... Wish you the best of lucks..

Would love to discuss your leads, my leads, any leads. Thanks for the kind response. Would love to hear more if you're interested in dialoguing on the topic.

Randy

 

[piegrande]

piegrande, your assessment of my presentation is accurate. I start with the assumption that the treasure is true (and I think it's well established that it is) with the question being where did it go? My goal was to provide as many of the legends as I have recovered for consideration with as unbiased an approach as possible using obtainable written accounts as a foundation. This was never intended to answer the question about where the treasure ended up, but rather was meant as both a collection point for dying legends and a chance for others to ask themselves the question about where the treasure might be, what does the evidence suggest, and in light of the improbability of a treasure that size coming this far North, what could be interpreted or assumed to make that possibility more likely. The purpose was to present data for consideration, discussion and new lines of academic research. This was never meant to be as much of a "treasure story," as it was intended to be a collection and assessment of folklore.

The upside to an approach like this is I don't get hung up much in bias. I'm not trying to prove that a treasure i haven't found is in one specific area. If I had an idea it would close my mind to so many other possibilities that are every bit as viable and worth consideration...even your own. The purpose here isn't to sell an idea, but to preserve part of the Southwest culture with minimal regards for its legitimacy. I'm not trying to prove anything, I'm trying to PRESERVE a great deal.

I do appreciate your feedback and efforts to watch the video, I know it's not an undertaking lightly executed. I thoroughly enjoyed presenting my research, perhaps my sense of self-preservation in an academic sense should dictate I be less open mouthed about my work. For my part, it's not worth doing if I can’t share it and it's certainly not worth doing if its merits can't be discussed.

I guess my question to you would be, how do you think the video could be better executed in terms of content, particularly given what I have said regarding my goals and motivations?

Randy

I don't know if I have any suggestions or complaints about the video. You know the technical problems, which were not terminal in any way. You presented your summary of the legends, and with that in mind, I'd say you were successful.

A reminder that for most of 30 years I did not take seriously the possibility that the treasure was here. Sort of a joke. Then, over the years as more date appeared, I finally concluded it really is here. At least three key bits of evidence changed my mind.

1. The finding of gold over 100 years ago, in the form of a neckpiece on a skeleton dug up in that room.
2. The photo which showed the damaged bell tower in the same time period of the stated discovery that was allegedly used to buy a new bell.
3. The actual written report of the sighting of the treasure, by Bernal Diaz. Up until reading his book, I assumed the gold went in the lake.

I do believe the other Emperor's had their own treasures, which may have caused confusion. But, the other legends never, as far as I can tell, actually involve finding gold. Only legends of having found gold.

 

[piegrande]

Cognitive dissonance means having made an important decision, you immediately start doubting your own wisdom in having made that decision.

Years ago, when I took marketing in college, it was reported that most car brochures from the dealers are obtained AFTER the car is bought, trying to reassure themselves that they made the correct decision.

So, for over thirty years, I from time to time accumulated more evidence, pro and con, on the treasure actually being here. A year or two ago, i realized I had eliminated all the inconsistencies in that theory. At that point in time, I felt absolutely 100% sure it is here, no doubts.

Having said so publicly, I instantly developed cognitive dissonance. Convinced myself I was nuts and it wasn't possible. The facts didn't change; no inconsistencies developed. Classic cognitive dissonance.

 

[HappyTrails55]

You all are WAY off base, lot's of Talk but nothing to show. Fredrick Archibald Crystal lived a Long Life in Comfort in Mexico. Darrell

 

[kanabite]

You all are WAY off base, lot's of Talk but nothing to show. Fredrick Archibald Crystal lived a Long Life in Comfort in Mexico. Darrell View attachment 1239747 View attachment 1239749

Hee hee , bravo amigo!

 

[piegrande]

I just came back and re-read parts of this thread. LilOrphanAnnie had some very good thoughts. Which does not mean I agreed with everything he wrote.

For example, some history books from old Mexico did report digging into rocks, looking for gold. It is even known how they did it. Using that shiny black volcanic stone as a cutter, hitting it with hammer rocks.

As far as the weight, my understanding is the Aztecs made what I call trinkets, not bullion. They had a large quantity of slaves who were strong enough en masse to easily and rapidly move the estimated 15 tons (using Diaz figures) two days over steep mountains, if ordered to do so. They normally carried family members over the same route in two days in carriers.

And, as I have said, this location (which is not in my back yard but across the property line in a house known to have been property of the Moctezuma family) is one of the very few where gold was actually found.

I do not expect anyone who is not privy to all I am privy to, to believe it is there. But, this is not just a pipe dream, like those who think it went weeks or months into what is now the USA.

 

[piegrande]

The two most important things involved in understanding the Aztecs:

1. They were brilliant military geniuses.

2. They had an incredibly large labor pool. If they wanted 5,000 slaves to placer hunt for gold, all they had to was issue the orders. 5,000 gold searchers can find a lot of gold in places where it would no longer be economically sound to look. Essentially, no ROI involved.

If each searcher found 1/5000 ounces a week, that is an ounce a week, every week, year after year after year. And, we don't know how much gold was there before they combed the hills for a long time.

And, they had plenty of time.The Aztecs had quite a long time in charge of the area.

 

[piegrande]

It is easy to lose track of the amount of work a strong man can perform when tractors are not available or affordable. When I first came here, I viewed anything over 125 pounds as heavy. I watched the men here..

One day some young punk drove across my land to visit the girl down hill. My first act was to tell the girl's mother to tell him to park in the road and walk down.

My second act, which took a lot longer, was to move a 1200 pound rock, with a steel bar, around 20 or 30 feet to block his path. I am not strong, so it took me many days.

The men here could have done it in a group in an hour or two. It was a matter of male pride for me to do it without help.

Really strong men, like the Aztec slaves, in a group, and perhaps using ropes, could have done it in minutes.

 

[Randy Bradford]

You all are WAY off base, lot's of Talk but nothing to show. Fredrick Archibald Crystal lived a Long Life in Comfort in Mexico. Darrell View attachment 1239747 View attachment 1239749

Long time not chat Darrell. I had someone mail me a photo they thought was Freddie with his family before he came Utah way. You're ahead of me as I got nothing to prove anything about him but his draft card.

 

[AlwaysUp]

Is that really a picture of Freddie? Where is it from? Someone has his draft card too? How is that possible? I can't find anything on this guy anywhere. I did read that his "map" came to him as a vision in the middle of the night thought. Would love to get more info on the origin of him and his map. I'm starting to learn towards this all being a fictional story made up by Maureen Whipple. hmmm

 

[Blindbowman]

sorry I could not get the video to play but from the replies I well say "well done " in the hope your effort was there .. I will add " the seven caves are in fact in the superstition mountain" and yes they have been located and next year I will be going on expedition 7 to prove they are there .. in fact to do a first hand search of 16 sites ...I wont say at this point why I know the Montezuma treasure is in the seven caves , but some was used as bait to led people away from the seven caves ...

 

[Blindbowman]

I just came back and re-read parts of this thread. LilOrphanAnnie had some very good thoughts. Which does not mean I agreed with everything he wrote.

For example, some history books from old Mexico did report digging into rocks, looking for gold. It is even known how they did it. Using that shiny black volcanic stone as a cutter, hitting it with hammer rocks.

As far as the weight, my understanding is the Aztecs made what I call trinkets, not bullion. They had a large quantity of slaves who were strong enough en masse to easily and rapidly move the estimated 15 tons (using Diaz figures) two days over steep mountains, if ordered to do so. They normally carried family members over the same route in two days in carriers.

And, as I have said, this location (which is not in my back yard but across the property line in a house known to have been property of the Moctezuma family) is one of the very few where gold was actually found.

I do not expect anyone who is not privy to all I am privy to, to believe it is there. But, this is not just a pipe dream, like those who think it went weeks or months into what is now the USA.

I guess that was as good description as I could have said . here is some of that stone from the seven caves ...

 

[AlwaysUp]

Did you actually find those stones? Very cool!

 

[Randy Bradford]

I guess that was as good description as I could have said . here is some of that stone from the seven caves ...

Those green stones sound similar to the kind Gordon Smith found in the mummy cave...