Summary of Pie Grandes Theory on Moctezumas Treasure

[piegrande]

Summary of Pie Grande's Theory on Moctezuma's Treasure

I have posted over several years my investigation on the theory that Moctezuma's treasure is buried within 100 feet of my property line somewhere in rural Mexico. One member said it took him three days to read all my detailed postings. At the other extreme, one person (essentially) assumed I had heard drunks talking and spun a major web based on minimal information. It was suggested I make up some sort of index to my postings. After some thought, I chose to make a summary thread.

1. Evidence such a treasure existed. Cortes said Moctezuma put them in a house in Tenochtitlan (Mexico City). There was a stone box. They opened it and found treasure. Bernal Diaz said that treasure was around 700,000 pesos, which I calculate to be 20 tons, of gold and jewels. Check my figures by Googling for peso, and multiply it out.
   
2. During the Noche Triste, Cortes and his soldiers grabbed up the treasure and tried to run for it. Cortes said the Aztecs attacked, and most of the treasure fell into the water and was lost. Diaz said the Aztecs told him they had divers who got it all back. Diaz also said 70 Tlaxcalan soldiers did get away with their loads. A friend here said 70 soldiers could handle around 5 tons with ease. That treasure was sent to Spain, but the ship sank just off the coast of Mexico. That leaves 15 tons which went somewhere. The question is WHERE.
   
3. There are vague legends that the treasure went a couple months north into the current USA. That would make no military sense at all. People were dying in large numbers of small pox, and it would have taken a large force to make it there.
   
4. Much of my investigation could be described as reverse engineering. Trying to duplicate the thought processes of the Aztecs at that time. They were brilliant military strategists so thinking like a military strategist can take you a long way..
   
5. So, why would it be exactly here? There are a number of reasons. First, local oral tradition says it is here, and that it took a week to bury it. This land was at that time property of the Moctezuma family. The family used to come here for a country place, and they knew it well, so it makes sense while deciding where to store it this location would be considered, no more than a two day walk from Tenochtitlan. It was far enough from the city to be safe, but still within the Aztec region, close enough it could be taken back later. To the USA was a one-way trip.
   
6. They needed a place to bury it, where no one could so much as see them digging, since this was a recently conquered region. (Says UNAM.).The big fort like house provided both security during digging and later.
   
7. Now, the evidence gets serious. Around 1910, my wife's grandpa said they dug into the floor of one room in the house and found a skeleton with a gold neck piece which was donated to the local church for a new bell. I listened to tales of her grandpa's personality and character for many years. His word was considered untouchable, but while I know that, you cannot know that. Independent source: a picture post card postmarked 1908 which shows the church bell tower damaged and being repaired, probably from a recent earthquake. The skeleton was buried in the local cemetery, which means no one has any idea where, most likely. Under the skeleton was a “stone floor” which reverse engineering says would be a roof for the storage box made for the treasure. They did not just dump the goodies in a hole and cover it up. There were steps going down into the ground. Whatever is buried there, the gold piece proves it was probably there 495 years earlier.
   
8. Other theories include the possibility the skeleton was actually an Aztec leader, but they would not have put a floor under him without a cap over him. Another possibility is that the treasure was split up and only part of it here, and more in other of the many Moctezuma properties in Mexico. If we hear similar local traditions of treasure buried in the area, that would drastically reduce the likelihood that is is here.
   
9. There is no way to get that treasure. First, it is on private property and as I have written, it is not easy to dig it out, due to the type of soil involved. (Pre-travertine marble.) And, how would you take 15 tons away with the true owner, the Federal government, not noticing the tremendous operation. involved? Just as attempted bank robbery is a prison offense, attempting to steal an ancient archaeological treasure is also a prison offense. 75 people live within one city block, and only one of them is hard of hearing. Some time ago, a young lad from somewhere in Europe announced that he would, too, come here and get the treasure and no one could stop him. It was suggested that he was a rich Middle-easterner who has never been told no on anything he wanted.
   
10. In case it is important my wife is descended from the Moctezuma family. Her great-grandma was the last person to own the land with the surname Moctezuma. There are others of that surname still living in the area.
    
11. Another phenomenon, when I mentioned my theory to the men of the family, they all reacted the same. No laughter; no anger. Absolutely 100% poker face instantly. I am not only convinced the treasire is there, but that the men know it is there. They are realistic that it is simply not functional to dig it up. The grandpa said many times if I didn't put it down there, I don't take it up. When I mentioned the theory the uncle started locking the door to that room, which is used as a granary.. After a year, he again leaves it open, assuming I forgot the topic. I did not.
    
12. There is a large prison in the area, so they keep a lot of police, trained and armed, at all times in case of prison riot. When they are not needed at the prison, they patrol the town. It is not unusual to see in this small town 6 cops with M-16's patrolling on foot on the main street, and that is just part of the day shift.
    
13. The Mexican Air Force has several Northrop E-5-E air craft. From time to time, they will come from the south at supersonic speeds, dive over the town and then fly up again back to their base, probably 10 minutes from here at that speed, scaring the crap out of the women folk. They also do subsonic fly-by's and they do have rockets aboard. If there is some sort of insurrection here, the military sends large gunship helicopters out. Seeing those 50 caliber machine guns aimed down at them has stopped more than one major riot. If the cartels came in to take that treasure this place would look like the Desert Storm videos that I call Midnight over Bagdad.
    
14. This is only a summary, trying to keep other people from assuming this is a dummy over-reacting to the drunken babble of the local drunks. If you want to know more detail, a regular here said it took him 3 days to read my detailed postings on this theory. Since I do not type fast, that makes me wonder just how many hours it took me to type it all in. So, if someone asks a question which makes it clear he has not read the postings, as a matter of policy I am going to refer them to the postings. It is a very personal theory as a member by marriage of the descendants of the Moctezuma's. If you like it fine, if you don't like it that is fine, too. Since it is a theory, I do admit there is a possibility it is wrong.
    
15. When I first heard the local tradition that the treasure was here, I did not believe a word of it. For a long time, even as I did not believe, I kept reading and studying and thinking. Only after I started posting on this board did it come over me that it actually may be here. At the end of the reports, I felt I had eliminated all inconsistencies in the theory. In my mind it is here. And, I will never know.

 

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[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Very interestng my friend, keep it up.

 

[indiana@jones]

Nice

 

[Real of Tayopa]

I agree with Indy. post.

 

[doc-d]

One word........tunnel......

 

[J.A.A.]

More!
Please & thank you.

 

[Real of Tayopa]

pie Grande, you poster ------ There is no way to get that treasure. First, it is on private property and as I have written, it is not easy to dig it out, due to the type of soil involved. (Pre-travertine marble.) And, how would you take 15 tons away with the true owner, the Federal government, not noticing the tremendous operation. involved? Just as attempted bank robbery is a prison offense, attempting to steal an ancient archaeological treasure is also a prison offense.

This is the same problem that I have with Tayopo, a patiimony of Mexico.There are alternatives, political action, and to try to make a previous deal with the gov't , MAY i remind you that making a deal with the gov't lis oaded with potential pitfalls. You do not reveal the actual location until you have a signed deal, remember it now comes under the Heritage act of the United Nations, there is no statute of limitations, and you can be extridited from almost any country in the world.

In any event luck in your venture.

 

[piegrande]

RoT? Bad, but I like the humor of it. Sorry.

Yes, RoT is exactly correct. Since I simply do not need the money, but do want peace and quiet, I have no intention of so much as digging a spoonful of dirt a couple hundred feet from where I am sitting.

Ideas such as tunnels simply do not reflect the reality as RoT says, That dirt is simply too hard to efficiently dig out a tunnel. And, it would have to start well out of the area , because all is visible within a half mile of the site. And, where would you ever put the thousands of yards of dirt you dug out? Not pragmatic.


It just isn't worth the risk and effort. To me, it started as an interesting intellectual exercise and eventually I satisfied myself that it really is here. Anything more will have negative returns, not positive.

 

[South Sea mariner]

Hola senior Pie Grande. Really enjoyed your posts,.

I suspect you are pretty much very close with your theory. The following might be of interest? At least if there was any hidden treasure no doubt it was never really hidden far from Mexico city due to the circumstances you mentioned.

There is a 1889 newspaper story printed by the Press Democrat, Number 45, 4 September 1889.

City of Mexico, Sept. 3. Extensive excavations are being made at the suburban town of Coyoacan. The object in to recover quantities of gold and jewels supposed to have been hidden there by the Emperor Montezuma at the time of the Spanish conquest. Senor Maroado, one of the party engaged in the work, is a lineal descendant of the last Aztec Emperor. Cuanternac. He says has hieroglyphic documents which convince him that it was there that Montezuma hid the treasure, the value of which is not less than $20,000,000. time put it at $8O,000.000.

if anything it show other at least in 1889 felt that was the case along the same lines?

The question remains what documents did this man hieroglyphic documents have to come to this conclusion?

Mal

 

[kanabite]

Hola senior Pie Grande. Really enjoyed your posts,.

I suspect you are pretty much very close with your theory. The following might be of interest? At least if there was any hidden treasure no doubt it was never really hidden far from Mexico city due to the circumstances you mentioned.

There is a 1889 newspaper story printed by the Press Democrat, Number 45, 4 September 1889.

City of Mexico, Sept. 3. Extensive excavations are being made at the suburban town of Coyoacan. The object in to recover quantities of gold and jewels supposed to have been hidden there by the Emperor Montezuma at the time of the Spanish conquest. Senor Maroado, one of the party engaged in the work, is a lineal descendant of the last Aztec Emperor. Cuanternac. He says has hieroglyphic documents which convince him that it was there that Montezuma hid the treasure, the value of which is not less than $20,000,000. time put it at $8O,000.000.

if anything it show other at least in 1889 felt that was the case along the same lines?

The question remains what documents did this man hieroglyphic documents have to come to this conclusion?

Mal

Follow the yellow brick road lol.

 

[piegrande]

I am trying to remember, not sure, but I think Emperor Moctezuma was killed before Noche Triste, so the salvaged treasure that Bernal Dias claims was taken back out of the lake still existed after Moctezuma was killed. If this is not correct, feel free to say so. I have house guests for the holidays, and little girls to kiss. They call me the Kissing Monster, and you can be sure have big smiles when I do give them forehead kisses.

(Sometimes the Emperor's name was spelled Motecuzoma and other ways. Moctezuma is the modern version. That is how my wife's great-grandma spelled it.)

A reminder that I have not at all believed that the Noche Triste treasure was the only treasure that various Emperors had, and that it may have actually been spread around. Though I do not think so. What I call reverse engineering makes it clear they wanted it "outa' Dodge' as fast as possible, but in a safe place, as I discussed in the lengthy threads.

Also, though I can't make sense out of those drawings, I do not believe they were stupid enough to draw maps showing where the treasure was buried.

Last point for now, have they found any gold in Coyoacan? A large piece was found here. Any time someone claims there is a treasure but no one has actually found any tends to reduce credibility of the claim. A note here that part of my belief is personal knowledge of the credibility of family members whose words are key to the study. You cannot ever have that confidence because you do not have access to the family history.

And, another reminder that I actually hope no one seriously believes the treasure is here.

I forgot to mention that Coyoacan is now well in the heart of Mexico City. What was suburban in the 1800's is now densely populated. Only long term residents and taxi drivers can tell you where one town starts and another stops.

 

[piegrande]

Additional note on previous posting. The Aztecs were brilliant strategists, except Moctezuma II. They were more than capable of putting out false trails. One hypothetical example I mentioned in the threads was the claim they were seen to go north. They would have said, "Hey everybody, we are going north. Do not forget. We are going north. Repeat: North. Got it? Don't forget, North. See you around the campus." And, as soon as out of sight turn the other direction.

I cannot say they did that. I am saying very plainly they were capable of pulling stunts like that.

 

[ORO18]

that is an amazing story, i have a question i would like to ask you, you say ur related, do you know or can you ask someone did montazuma have a bird a parot like bird that rode on his left sholder? i found this giant monument in the superstition wilderness AZ,US ive had a few people tell me it is forsure montazuma?? this image is via google earth, I'm going back up in january to take some real pictures of the monument... please let me know what you think?

 

[piegrande]

Looks like I need to respond, but what you get is my opinion, period. The problem is, by now, I am pretty much "married" to my theory that the treasure is next door to my property.

Still, all theories should be examined logically, or as logically as anyone can when chasing the end of the rainbow.

I do not believe the treasure of Moctezuma II went north. My studies are based not on knowledge of that the Aztecs did, because we can't know that. No, my studies are based on what the Aztecs WOULD HAVE DONE, and it is based on other knowledge of how they did things in general. In other words, what they would have done.

Let me give an example. Men, imagine your wife is home alone and the lights go out, and she can quickly see the houses around her still have lights. Do you know what she would do? I am sure my wife would open the breaker box door, look in there helplessly, then shut it and dig out the candles. My daughter would open the breaker box, and cycle the various breakers to see if one were snapped open. If she didn't find a problem, she'd call the electric company, probably. I know this because I know how they function from past observations. That is why I believe the Aztecs would do what I think they did.

In a time of great danger, with a smallpox epidemic tossed on the heap for kicks, they would never have sent a large group of soldiers and bearers over a thousand miles to put the treasure some place where they could never bring it back. The only Aztec stupid enough to do that would have been Moctezuma II, and he was long dead.

However, it is believed the Aztecs originated in Utah, by some theories. They would have passed through southern USA on their travels. I have a theory that there once was a large quantity of gold, easily obtained in its time. And, I theorize that the other Emperors had their own pile of loot. As gold was accumulated by the upper crust, it as no longer available in large quantities.

I have read a lot about the Gold Rush in California and in Alaska. I cannot verify things said in those old stories, but they reported that initial strikes involved tens or hundreds of thousands of dollars of gold, and at the price paid in those days it would have been in the tons taken out of major gold strikes.

By the time Cortes came to Mexico, tribes were struggling with brute force, breaking up rocks with massive amounts of manual labor. The Aztecs certainly had large amounts of labor...

So, I am convinced the gold allegedly buried in Arizona et al, was buried there long before Moctezuma's time. If it even exists. That is only a theory, based on my belief the Aztecs simply would not carry the treasure that far, when they had great places within 48 hours. That would not be consistent with their known military strategies.

Of course, also they may have done something different in times of peace with no emergency present. Not after Cortes showed up.

That does not mean the Aztecs had no trade routes into that region. There is no evidence pro or con, as far as I know. More probable is traders from the North came into Mexico to known places for trading, as did the indigenous folk in what is now the USA. I remember years ago in the community college, a book which told an ancient burial site had been opened in northern USA, and there was a female there with a necklace made of items from the Gulf of Mexico. I have driven it often enough, I can tell you it is more than 1,500 miles.

Let me make myself perfectly clear. I do not suggest there is no Aztec treasure in the USA. I am saying I do not think it was from Moctezuma II. And, his came from Moctezuma I, so it may have been from another Emperor. There were what? Two between Moctezuma I and II? Can't remember right now and too lazy to dig it out.

I really don't see much of anything in your photo. I do vaguely remember seeing ancient drawings showing Aztecs with birds on their shoulders, but I don't remember where. Mexicans are great with birds. If a robin falls out of a nest when it is not able to fly, the Mexicans can keep it alive and it will grow up domesticated.

 

[Salvor6]

Piegrandes I read all your threads and it took me 3 days. You have enough material to write a book about Aztec treasure. It would be on the best sellers list. Ever consider that?

 

[ORO18]

wow i can tell you are very educated on the subject. thank you,the picture is a pretty large monument of a face carved out of rock, there are 5 more monuments around it, there is nothing normal about the mountain it all is on, archeologists are interested in it because of the size and way the monuments were mad and meant to be viewed, from a distance, i am going up to take some more pictures and maybe you can help identify if any of it may be aztec? it may not be montazumas treasure but i think had something to do with him.

 

[piegrande]

Piegrandes I read all your threads and it took me 3 days. You have enough material to write a book about Aztec treasure. It would be on the best sellers list. Ever consider that?

Not really. Remember I am trying to walk a tight-rope here. I want people to have a better grasp of reality involving the Emperors. There may be treasure, even Aztec treasure, in Arizona or New Mexico or Utah. But, it just doesn't calculate that it would be sent there during a major emergency constituted by the Cortes invasion. The Aztecs, except for Moctezuma II, were smarter than that.

At the same time, I hope no one believes my theory that it is located within shouting distance of where I am sitting.

If they believe it, they may come snooping around. And, there is no imaginable way to get one cent worth of gold or treasure out of here.

My work, not the job title, was Senior Diagnostician in a large, very high tech electronics company. No brag; just fact. When they had a problem and everyone else struck out, they woke me gently as the last resort resource. I think slowly, but give me time and I often sort things out. On this issue, I was thinking about it at times for over 30 years.

I finally resolved to my own satisfaction all conflicts in the theory. I will never completely stop re-examining the theory based on other information as it arises. As I have said, similar local information at other locations will weaken my theory. So far, nothing. And, there were not unlimited places out away from the city owned by the Tenochas. We just don't know how many.

 

[piegrande]

Let me add that someone did find me, last year. He spent an entire day digging and had a stroke of extreme luck. But, he sent me a link showing not the dangerous dogs I described, but a sweet, little Golden Retriever. Hahaha heeheehee hohoho. The only thing I can think of is a cousin came to visit and they tied up the insane dogs while her dog was here. A Golden would have been killed or driven into the next county if the uncle's dogs were loose as usual. There is no Golden Retriever on the place.

When I go down in the morning with yogurt for the old uncle's, sometimes a person will be waiting at the top of the hill, and ask me to send the uncle's up. They will not go down there. And, that is in some cases family members noted for being rather fearless and tough. The only reason I can go is the dogs know me when they are pups.

My wife's brother a year or two ago went down, that is where he was raised. One of the dogs took a hole in his jeans.

 

[Salvor6]

Piegrande like it or not, you have posted enough information to make other people interested. It has resulted in someone finding you and there will be others. Protect yourself.

 

[piegrande]

I am not afraid of dying when my time comes I prefer not today, but what will be, will be.

This is a town not far from a large prison. They need a lot of cops nearby in case the prison has a riot. So, to keep them out of trouble, they patrol this small village. If you go downtown in the day time, in a two block range, there will be from 5 to 10 cops with M-16's, and magazines inserted, walking up and down along the street. The correct minimum number in a town like this is somewhere between 0 and 2.

And, two large multi-rotor helicopters with 50 caliber automatics rifles hanging out the side, can get here from the state capitol in less than half an hour. Also, nearby villages have a will come when called agreement with this village.

That doesn't even count the farmers. The wife of the former county coroner said the cops are scared to death of the farmers, and that is not a joke. My guess is when the braceros came back after WWII most of them were walking very stiff legged as they crossed the border.

It would take a cartel battalion to deal with the locak firepower, and then the Marines would come before they had time to do the hard digging. In Mexico as in the US, they send in the Marines as shock troops when needed.

I assume there are also special forces.

Oh, my, I forgot the E5E's which from time to time make a faster than speed of sound practice runs on the town. Rockets are mounted on the wings.

I suggest anyone who wants to mess with this town first update the next of kin information.

Nothing I have said here is an exaggeration, all very true. Make our day.