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Thread: has montezuma's tomb been found ...?

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  1. #361
    um
    Nemo me impune lacesset

    Jan 2005
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    Re: has montezuma's tomb been found ...?

    Blindbowman, I hope you are not leaving T-net due to my posts, like I said I just could not think of what to say to try to get answers to those questions, when you choose not to answer and offer no explanation as to why you choose not to answer. A lot of folks have deep interest in the Superstition mountains, so there is no reason for you to quit communicating simply because Oroblanco has run out of ways to ask questions.

    Very nice photos Cubfan, if I may say so - they could make a guy feel homesick. Did you see any sort of inscription(s) or carved stone, or something that looked like it was altered by man at some time in the past? I am getting the impression from Blindbowman that it has been deliberately made to appear as if it were not altered by man. Of course that would be what I would be expecting in the Lost Dutchman mine and not for the tomb of an Aztec emperor, as Waltz told people that he had covered up and hidden his mine so well that it was hard to find even when you know where it is - but perhaps there was good reason to hide the tomb of the Aztec ruler, considering that prior to the discovery of Ahuizotl's tomb, no one has ever found any tomb of any Aztec emperors. What are your impressions of the site? Thank you in advance,
    your friend,
    Roy ~ Oroblanco
    SUPPORT THE BEEF INDUSTRY - EAT BEEF
    "We must find a way, or we will make one."--Hannibal Barca

  2. #362
    us
    Feb 2006
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    Re: has montezuma's tomb been found ...?

    Quote Originally Posted by Oroblanco
    Blindbowman, I hope you are not leaving T-net due to my posts, like I said I just could not think of what to say to try to get answers to those questions, when you choose not to answer and offer no explanation as to why you choose not to answer. A lot of folks have deep interest in the Superstition mountains, so there is no reason for you to quit communicating simply because Oroblanco has run out of ways to ask questions.

    Very nice photos Cubfan, if I may say so - they could make a guy feel homesick. Did you see any sort of inscription(s) or carved stone, or something that looked like it was altered by man at some time in the past? I am getting the impression from Blindbowman that it has been deliberately made to appear as if it were not altered by man. Of course that would be what I would be expecting in the Lost Dutchman mine and not for the tomb of an Aztec emperor, as Waltz told people that he had covered up and hidden his mine so well that it was hard to find even when you know where it is - but perhaps there was good reason to hide the tomb of the Aztec ruler, considering that prior to the discovery of Ahuizotl's tomb, no one has ever found any tomb of any Aztec emperors. What are your impressions of the site? Thank you in advance,
    your friend,
    Roy ~ Oroblanco
    Oro - the best I can tell you is that I saw nothing that seemed out of the ordinary, BUT you need to keep in mind several things. First of all, this was my first real trip to do hiking in the Superstitions - what is "normal" to me may stand out like a sore thumb to someone else. Secondly, I have pretty much NO experience in identifying geological anomalies or carving due to human intervention. The very best I could do is just look for anything that seemed "out of place" so to speak and I honestly saw nothing like that. I wish BB could have identified some specific things for me to look for so I could take photos and let you all talk about them, but that didn't happen on this trip.

    As I've mentioned before to BB, I'm absolutely skeptical of his claims, but I still retain an open enough mind to think that just perhaps he is "on to something." I would have no problem climbing back up there this fall when I hope to head back for a few days and taking a bunch of photos - even if they appear to be nothing to me.

    Although this is BB's thread and it will be off topic, I'll post a few more photos just for the fun of it. If BB wants me to, I'll remove them.

    cactus flower


    Reavis Falls
    http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x...x/P1010621.jpg

    Weaver's Needle


    Peralta Trailhead parking lot


    Old stone wall in the mountains


    A horny friend


    Roger's Canyon cliff dwelling


    A not so friendly meeting


    Mountains in bloom
    "There is no getting away from a treasure that once fastens upon your mind" - Joseph Conrad (Nostromo)

  3. #363
    us
    May 2007
    Western Colorado
    5,871
    42 times

    Re: has montezuma's tomb been found ...?

    Cub,

    I am in awe of your photography !

    Those are some of the best pictures of the area I have seen.
    Beautiful in the spring isn't it?
    You sure covered a lot of teritory my friend.
    Keep posting stuff like this and as Oro said,
    You may get me back to AZ sooner than I had planned on going.

    Thom
    "Everybody dies"
    "But not everybody lives."

  4. #364
    um
    Nemo me impune lacesset

    Jan 2005
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    Re: has montezuma's tomb been found ...?

    Dang Cubfan those are nice photos! I can tell you that sitting here in SD gazing out at the fresh layer of snow, with the wind howling, looking at sunny Arizona sure makes a guy want to go there. That stone wall might be something interesting too buddy.

    That is an excellent photo of the cliff dwelling - not many treasure hunters seem to be interested in those mysterious cultures but I find them fascinating. I don't expect that they stashed treasures in their walls, but their story alone is quite a treasure.

    Good luck and good hunting amigos, I hope that you find the treasures that you seek.
    your friend,
    Roy
    SUPPORT THE BEEF INDUSTRY - EAT BEEF
    "We must find a way, or we will make one."--Hannibal Barca

  5. #365

    Nov 2006
    1,379
    5 times

    Re: has montezuma's tomb been found ...?

    cub be my guest ,there is not topic off topic unless its of a presonal nature .. i found your photos out standing and well patternerd.. remember those clif dwellings are center pionts for arrow areas often youth hunters did not for far from the camps us any where in the area could be a treasure site of arrowheads or other hand tools .find even one and you have a way to defind the tribe and a target date ...

    same with the dewellings them self .. i agree with Oro i find this type of random research more interesting then dirrected focus at times ...i even saw something i was looking for ...

    its not that there is no see able signs of anyone being up there . i would exspect to find almost nothing , but almost nothing is not nothing ,, the area i was talking about has nothing at all .yet i can move to the next redge over and finds sign around the area,, its that void that made me beleive there was something hiden there ...not only was there something there , but someone went to a lot of work to cover the site over . and as you seen its not a area easy to get to ...i figerd as many as a dozen or more people did that ...your talking few dozen people up there ...why?

    i would like to have Oro and you meet me & my brother there next fall if we can could it would be a very prodoctive trip....

    LOL the place dose have a little shock and aw ....LOL your frist trip looked like mine with less blisterds ...lol be my guest add any photos you want .. the focus of the post is about the site and some of your shot do relate ...your on a roll dont stop now ... think how it felt being up there ... think back how few people would go to that area ...

    your lucky thats nut wym they have 3 types of rattlers there ...lol


    no my leaveing the site had nothing to do with the site or any of its members ,, i was thinking about moveing to my stone cottage...i dont have internet there and i most likely would not put it in .. its a peaceful place and i enjoy it as it is...
    " have i lost my way ? or am i just a being of lost ways ? "

    " a wiseman once told me a wiseman that thinks he knows everything has already failed  because he thinks "

    © the blindbowman ,2007

  6. #366
    us
    Feb 2006
    New Hampshire - USA
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    Re: has montezuma's tomb been found ...?

    LOL your frist trip looked like mine with less blisterds
    I wouldn't count on that BB

    I hiked 6 days straight from just before sunrise to sunset (and once ~3 hours past sunset by accident ). I hit Walmart twice for blister patches and on two of my hikes never saw a single person all day. I spent numerous hours off the trails - mostly on purpose, but sometimes by accident (hehe), and did plenty of bushwacking and boulder hopping throughout.

    I didn't get to the REAL interior areas I wanted to see, but I got enough of a taste to be better aware of what to expect on my next trip where I intend to spend a few days camped out deeper into the mountains.

    Oro - the stone wall is indeed interesting, but rest assured the area around it has been seriously investigate - of that I'm certain. It's actually located right near Willow Spring where Adolph Ruth was camped during his fateful trip. It's noted as being an old stone corral.

    I agree with those of you who find the native american ruins to be fascinating. The idea of people living and raising a family out there is inspiring and evokes all sorts of images and thoughts when sitting in those places. Although there is some graffiti in areas, it seems that most people have a respect for those things and leave them untouched - I doubt it will be that way forever though.

    I couldn't help but imagine the many undisturbed and hidden sites that I'm sure still remain out in those mountains here and there. It's probably good that I don't live closer as I'm afraid I would be sorely tempted to call in sick too often to go hiking and exploring - I doubt I'd be able to hold down a job
    "There is no getting away from a treasure that once fastens upon your mind" - Joseph Conrad (Nostromo)

  7. #367

    Nov 2006
    1,379
    5 times

    Re: has montezuma's tomb been found ...?

    i got a 17 by 11 ft ...7ft h... all weather tent ,3 room unopened ...got all the gear for a 8 men trip .. light weight doulble gas stove for hiker & mountains even got a nice ele.cooler .. if you and Oro want to get a hike togather ..maybe we can get something togather .next winter ....i havent seen a smake from nov -to -feb... but the big cats look to be looking for food ....lol snakes or big cats wish do you like more ....lol

    i had my office all tore down ..to move and my girl friend said she dosent want me leave so what can i do .. i put it all back togather this morning its great to be back on the 5.6 D core ,256 graphics desk top .. i hate the laptop to small of a key board . i cant even read it ..i spent $500 in upgrades and it works well for some things like GPS tracking roads and GPS in the mts . but as far as useing it on a dayly research ..i think not ...lol

    good back up for my desk top ...its a 2.6 with upgraded hard drive to 7200 /80G, exspanded memory and exsended wireless ,i got to asy i wish i had not did the upgrades , they make it a little to touchy ...to fast for the basic design . go like a raped ape ...lol

    i am even thinking of turning down the settings to slow it down some ...its nice to have upgraded the power chager & plugin jack and battery...it will run a few hours ....

    i got a full power converted in the truck so rechageing is not a problem ..

    so if you ty to up grade a laptop you may find it dose these little things you dont really want it to.....lol ....fast ant always better ...

    " have i lost my way ? or am i just a being of lost ways ? "

    " a wiseman once told me a wiseman that thinks he knows everything has already failed  because he thinks "

    © the blindbowman ,2007

  8. #368
    mx
    Nov 2004
    Alamos,Sonora,Mexico
    10,978
    1936 times

    Re: has montezuma's tomb been found ...?

    HIO BB: You posted --->

    i hate the laptop to small of a key board . i cant even read it .
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~.

    Go to any electonic store, or even a Good will store, and get a regular keyboard. they all plug into a laptop with or without an adaptor.

    Don Jose de La Mancha
    "I exist to live, not live to exist"

  9. #369

    Nov 2006
    1,379
    5 times

    Re: has montezuma's tomb been found ...?

    Quote Originally Posted by Real de Tayopa
    HIO BB: You posted --->

    i hate the laptop to small of a key board . i cant even read it .
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~.

    Go to any electonic store, or even a Good will store, and get a regular keyboard. they all plug into a laptop with or without an adaptor.

    Don Jose de La Mancha
    i agree, But this laptop is a dell and only has two USB ports and that makes it hard to down load photo or use the GPS Holux with out unpluging all the time . i like the click and go ...plus i have a few other toys . like hand held scaner..and still want a solar chager ...i have another full backup 2.0 computer i dont use .. .. but thats dell for ya .. not enough UBS ports i got oneof the add ons and found it was a biger pain in the A then it was worth ...you use a laptop on site real de ...? its nice to down laod or take a few fast cams ...and you can GPS the photos ...

    look up the GPS GR-213 super mini size HOLUX on ebay .. great GPS at afordable price as well as simplicity and reliability...it runs off your UBS no batteries needed ...its a nice system .. the software can be downloaded for free at some sites , after i watched it work i would not try anything else ...it rocks i can map the ful trip from new york to Az right to the site it self and it well track me the hole way there .. and thats great when you got to stop for gas ...

    the only thing i did not like was shortest route can take you down roas you would not take a 4x4 ....lol that route 60 the back way in ... sucks . my brakes were smokeing by the time i got out of those cayans ...lol when out threw flagstaff...lol
    " have i lost my way ? or am i just a being of lost ways ? "

    " a wiseman once told me a wiseman that thinks he knows everything has already failed  because he thinks "

    © the blindbowman ,2007

  10. #370

    Nov 2006
    1,379
    5 times

    Re: has montezuma's tomb been found ...?

    real de tayopa , let me ask a out of the normal question .
    a hypothesis question...what if the tayopa treasure trove list did not come from the tayopa at all and it was only taken to there for safe keeping .. i ask you just how much ore was taken from the tayopa and what proff is there of that amont of ore comeing from the tayopa it self .. the reason i ask this odd question is because i now have hypothesis about where the tayopa is and why its there . i think i have located the real tayopa mine .. its site 4 .. hear me out frist , the mine may only be 12 ft deep but i dont beleive anyone ever work the mine more then a very short time span ... i thnk the mine was at the secerd place and thus was protected from the days of clovis to the earl 1700's when it was lost and later recoverd by the Gonzales & prealata , then they tried to work the mine and were massacred then the prealta tried to work the mine and all but 3 were killed and then then dutchman killed them 3 ...

    i have a reason to beleive this is the same mine .. so i ask you how much did the tayopa mine yeild and can we prove it ...?i have reason to beleive the prealta only recoverd a few ore bags of ore from the mine ...same as the dutchman ,he only got a few bags of ore from the mine , i think i found a missing peice of the puzzle today and we well have to wait and see if i am right ,,but it looks interesting from my insight ...my piont is ...we know block of silver ore were stated to have come from the tayopa but i have not found any over all amont other then the legend , saying it was cut into blocks for shiping . could this have only came from a few blocks say about 10 ft deep by 4 by 4 ft square ...? i will not explan why i ask .. just i do have a good reason for asking ...

    say the tayopa is this 12 ft deep mine shft , say the tayopa was worked to about 10 ft . if the ore was as rich as they stated your talking 40 cubic blocks of silver ore , yet the last 2 ft down came crossed a rich gold vien that later becomes the gonzales and Prealta mine . only to become the LDM...dont get me worng or misunder stand my hypothesis ..i am not saying the tayopa mine is one mine by it self .. or that the tayopa mines were not 18 diffrent rich mines ,i just questioning the fats as they stand ... the mine i located at site 4 is 200 ft from the old chruch we found across the gorge, the reason i ask is because i wonder if the tayopa name is not a chicomoztoc or aztlan secerd name ...i have been working on a new peice of research that may conferm this hypothesis ...
    " have i lost my way ? or am i just a being of lost ways ? "

    " a wiseman once told me a wiseman that thinks he knows everything has already failed  because he thinks "

    © the blindbowman ,2007

  11. #371
    us
    Feb 2006
    New Hampshire - USA
    Fisher CZ21, Teknetics T2 & Minelab Sovereign GT
    2,298
    438 times
    All Types Of Treasure Hunting
    Banner Finds (1)

    Re: has montezuma's tomb been found ...?

    Quote Originally Posted by the blindbowman
    real de tayopa , let me ask a out of the normal question .
    a hypothesis question...what if the tayopa treasure trove list did not come from the tayopa at all and it was only taken to there for safe keeping .. i ask you just how much ore was taken from the tayopa and what proff is there of that amont of ore comeing from the tayopa it self .. the reason i ask this odd question is because i now have hypothesis about where the tayopa is and why its there . i think i have located the real tayopa mine .. its site 4 .. hear me out frist , the mine may only be 12 ft deep but i dont beleive anyone ever work the mine more then a very short time span ... i thnk the mine was at the secerd place and thus was protected from the days of clovis to the earl 1700's when it was lost and later recoverd by the Gonzales & prealata , then they tried to work the mine and were massacred then the prealta tried to work the mine and all but 3 were killed and then then dutchman killed them 3 ...

    i have a reason to beleive this is the same mine .. so i ask you how much did the tayopa mine yeild and can we prove it ...?i have reason to beleive the prealta only recoverd a few ore bags of ore from the mine ...same as the dutchman ,he only got a few bags of ore from the mine , i think i found a missing peice of the puzzle today and we well have to wait and see if i am right ,,but it looks interesting from my insight ...my piont is ...we know block of silver ore were stated to have come from the tayopa but i have not found any over all amont other then the legend , saying it was cut into blocks for shiping . could this have only came from a few blocks say about 10 ft deep by 4 by 4 ft square ...? i will not explan why i ask .. just i do have a good reason for asking ...

    say the tayopa is this 12 ft deep mine shft , say the tayopa was worked to about 10 ft . if the ore was as rich as they stated your talking 40 cubic blocks of silver ore , yet the last 2 ft down came crossed a rich gold vien that later becomes the gonzales and Prealta mine . only to become the LDM...dont get me worng or misunder stand my hypothesis ..i am not saying the tayopa mine is one mine by it self .. or that the tayopa mines were not 18 diffrent rich mines ,i just questioning the fats as they stand ... the mine i located at site 4 is 200 ft from the old chruch we found across the gorge, the reason i ask is because i wonder if the tayopa name is not a chicomoztoc or aztlan secerd name ...i have been working on a new peice of research that may conferm this hypothesis ...
    what is it that convinces you the ruins you came across are a church?
    "There is no getting away from a treasure that once fastens upon your mind" - Joseph Conrad (Nostromo)

  12. #372

    Nov 2006
    1,379
    5 times

    Re: has montezuma's tomb been found ...?

    the only iron spikes used in this building were in the shape of a large crucifix impression on one wall . the walls were larger then most other buildings ...and taller then most know building other then chruches ...we found parts of all 4 walls to this building , thats not all we found ... we found what apear to be leather bags left laying on the ground near by . we found what looks to be potery shards . we found very little sign of mules or horse at this site ...in fact we dont see any other reason for this site to be where it is . other then being a chruch ...... if i am right about the mine being tayopa . then the chruch is in fact 200 ft away the same it was described in the writtern dirrection ..... see i now beleive that all of these things relate to one site ...the stone tablets . the dirrection the ruth map .. the tayopa legend. it all fits togather when its translated in the right order ...by conviceing my self templar had something to do with the site logic soon defind how or they vade away from being dirrectly related to the site . the sites defindment over time well select what is related to the site and what is not ...even thou we found evidence that relates to many things logic and the sites growth definds the truth as we build the back ground for the site ...

    the piont being we are following up on a few clues and peice of evidence we had waited to research because we knew their value before hand and we did not want to rush the work ...we are looking at about 8 peice of evidence that fit the hypothesis dirrectly . we beleive we have enough evidence to tie these legends togather as one legend and a lot of confussion that came after ...lol we wont know for sure till next expedition 3B but we are looking ahead to see and define the search areas and what we would be searching for ... and if we would have others with us this time ...we know we have some real work ahead and its going to take a few people to search the site ...
    Attached Images Attached Images  
    " have i lost my way ? or am i just a being of lost ways ? "

    " a wiseman once told me a wiseman that thinks he knows everything has already failed  because he thinks "

    © the blindbowman ,2007

  13. #373
    mx
    Nov 2004
    Alamos,Sonora,Mexico
    10,978
    1936 times

    Re: has montezuma's tomb been found ...?

    HIO BB, my friend: Take me off of Ignore if you wish me to answer you in the future. I am reading CUBS copy of the hidden post.

    My Tayopa is the one of the legends of the 1600 -1700's. It is still closed for many reasons. But it produced large quantities of Silver & Gold. It was / is primarily a silver mine. It was definitely mined for perhaps 30 years with many shipments from it, and the surrounding mines, to Rome by a clandestine operation. - sorry Lamar my friend.. Obviously it is far deeper than 12 ft.

    The name of Tayopa was used for other mines that were thought to be Tayopa, including the first two that the Jesuits mined , Guaynopa and La Devina Trinidad near Yecora.

    Tayopa is surrounded by the other 17 mines, but they were / are of rabbit hole construction in general, very dangerous.

    There is no way to know at this point if your find is named Tayopa or not, but I can say for certainty, it is not the Tayopa of legend..

    The Tayopa mines production was the basis for setting up the leap frog, clandestine operation to ship the metal to Rome, so obviously it must have been extremely large.

    The second picture is of the Actual Tayopa barranca. The Capiila is to the right center.

    Don Jose de La Mancha
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Click image for larger version. 

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    "I exist to live, not live to exist"

  14. #374
    um
    Nemo me impune lacesset

    Jan 2005
    DAKOTA TERRITORY
    Tesoro Lobo Supertraq, (95%) Garrett Scorpion (5%)
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    1501 times

    Re: has montezuma's tomb been found ...?

    Greetings amigos,

    I know that I said I would not keep on bugging Blindbowman with endless questions, but Blindbowman has added a bit of information that I have to ask about.

    Blindbowman said:
    we found what apear to be leather bags left laying on the ground near by .
    You never mentioned this before amigo, but this kind of artifact would be worth photographing and perhaps even getting a carbon-dating done. Leather left out in the desert can survive for a long time but oftentimes the local rodent population will dispose of it in a few winters, and those pesky porcupines will chew up leather too. Even coyotes will eat old leather if they are hungry enough. It seems logical that leather found in the desert is likely not that old, but you never know. I hope you got some photos of the leather remains and of the pottery shards. If you have, would you mind posting a few? Thank you in advance,
    your friend,
    Oroblanco
    SUPPORT THE BEEF INDUSTRY - EAT BEEF
    "We must find a way, or we will make one."--Hannibal Barca

  15. #375
    mx
    Nov 2004
    Alamos,Sonora,Mexico
    10,978
    1936 times

    Re: has montezuma's tomb been found ...?

    HI again BB: you posted this question --->

    so i ask you how much did the tayopa mine yeild and can we prove it
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


    As our / my friend Lamar will say, it never existed, So how do you prove a non existent mine's production? The mine itself was secret, so naturally it's production is unknown. It can only be calculated by the enormous effort made to clandestinely leap frog it across northern Mexico to Matamorros and then on to Rome.

    Don Jose de La Mancha
    "I exist to live, not live to exist"

 

 
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