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Thread: has montezuma's tomb been found ...?

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  1. #481
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    Re: has montezuma's tomb been found ...?

    As for Moctezuma's body, the two best sources for what happened are Fray Diego Duran, whom I quoted in an earlier post, and the priest I will now quote, Fray Bernardino de Sahagun:

    "It was another four days that the Spaniards threw the dead bodies of Moctezuma and Itzquauhtzin out ot the palace, at a place called Teoayoc, the stone turtle carving. As soon as they were recognized, men quickly took up Moctezuma's body and carried it to Copulco, placed it on a pile of wood, and fired it. The flames crackled and flared up into many tongues; the body seemed to lie sizzling, sending up a foul stench. As he burned, onlookers berated him; their good will had given way to fury." Source: "The War Of Conquest" by, Arthur Anderson and Charles Dibble.

    The above quote is not an exact translation of what Fr. Bernardino de Sahagun wrote in Nahuatl/Aztec. For the purpose of finding out what happened to Moctezuma's body, it is accurate.

    Itzquauhtzin's body was treated with high respect and dignity, Moctezuma's was not. Two sources have told the same basic story. Copulco was no more than 1 1/2 miles from the palace. That was as far as Moctezuma's body traveled after his death.

    What may be argued is, that not everyone "berated" and disrespected Moctezuma's body. The common thread is that his body was burned at Copulco. From reading the history, it seems quite possible that anyone who voiced respect for the slain ruler, would probably have been set upon and killed.

    IMHO, "Montezuma's Tomb" has never and will never be found, because it does not exist.

    Joe Ribaudo

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  3. #482

    Nov 2006
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    Re: has montezuma's tomb been found ...?

    the earth is flat and america dosent exist ether . but then again .. your doing just what i thaught you would ....lol
    " have i lost my way ? or am i just a being of lost ways ? "

    " a wiseman once told me a wiseman that thinks he knows everything has already failed  because he thinks "

    © the blindbowman ,2007

  4. #483
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    Re: has montezuma's tomb been found ...?

    BB - what did you mean by?

    ...i can tell you what is happening but soon you will find out...
    OD's photos were from Colorado - are you implying that you know where those stone formations are and how they got there? Can you elaborate?
    "There is no getting away from a treasure that once fastens upon your mind" - Joseph Conrad (Nostromo)

  5. #484
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    Dec 2005
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    Re: has montezuma's tomb been found ...?

    bb,

    "the earth is flat and america dosent exist ether . but then again .. your doing just what i thaught you would ....lol"

    Well.....I do like to stay predictable when researching history.

    I have to admit, the flat earth theory does seem to fit right in there with your usual line of reasoning. You're just kidding about "america" not existing.......right?

    Joe Ribaudo

  6. #485
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    Re: has montezuma's tomb been found ...?

    Quote Originally Posted by the blindbowman
    Quote Originally Posted by Cubfan64
    BB - what did you mean by?

    ...i can tell you what is happening but soon you will find out...
    OD's photos were from Colorado - are you implying that you know where those stone formations are and how they got there? Can you elaborate?

    no dont know where those photos were take . i dont care lol ,,,
    Then I have to claim confusion as to why you would see the photos OD posts and respond with LOL's and say you can tell him what is happening, but soon he will find out. If you don't know where those photos were taken and don't care, how can you explain them to him?

    "There is no getting away from a treasure that once fastens upon your mind" - Joseph Conrad (Nostromo)

  7. #486
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    where's my hat what's my hurry

    nice pics thom and keep em coming . what is a going on then BB ? are you going to tell me to get out of here again .LOL , and cub thank you for posting the Freddy crystal tunnels / gold rush expedition link we need all of the help we can get .
    Talk sense to a fool and he calls you foolish. Euripides

  8. #487
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    Dec 2005
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    Re: has montezuma's tomb been found ...?

    bb,

    "i dont care who you report the reply to .. you are the one that emailed me troll ..i am makeing fun of you .....now get your loser ass out of my post , .. you will do anything to try to slow down what is happening ,, thats good to know, i hope your infront of this large rock when it passes over what is left of you .... lol"

    Nothing worse than the son of God....with a bad memory.

    Joe Ribaudo

  9. #488
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    Re: has montezuma's tomb been found ...?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cubfan64
    Quote Originally Posted by the blindbowman
    Quote Originally Posted by Cubfan64
    BB - what did you mean by?

    ...i can tell you what is happening but soon you will find out...
    OD's photos were from Colorado - are you implying that you know where those stone formations are and how they got there? Can you elaborate?

    no dont know where those photos were take . i dont care lol ,,,
    Then I have to claim confusion as to why you would see the photos OD posts and respond with LOL's and say you can tell him what is happening, but soon he will find out. If you don't know where those photos were taken and don't care, how can you explain them to him?
    BB - can you clarify your comment to OD? I thought his photos of the rock formations in Colorado seemed interesting at the very least. What do you think is happening and what do you mean by "you will soon find out?" in regards to those photos? Just curious.
    "There is no getting away from a treasure that once fastens upon your mind" - Joseph Conrad (Nostromo)

  10. #489
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    Re: has montezuma's tomb been found ...?

    Quote Originally Posted by the blindbowman
    the risk of the internet and the insaults will remain at this web site ......

    my research & expeditions will no longer be public ....i will no longer post or reply ....
    Is it just me, or has anyone else noticed that when questions come up that BB can't answer or he's said something that he can't explain the "I'm taking my ball and going home" routine enters the picture?

    I'm not sure, but at last count I think this is the 57th time "I will no longer post or reply" has been uttered by our resident genius.

    What's the over and under on how long before we see another post from him (or one of his secret identities)?



    "There is no getting away from a treasure that once fastens upon your mind" - Joseph Conrad (Nostromo)

  11. #490
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    May 2006
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    Re: has montezuma's tomb been found ...?

    BB wrote: the risk of the internet and the insaults will remain at this web site ......

    my research & expeditions will no longer be public ....i will no longer post or reply
    so what you don't really know or you are just not going to say ? this topic has been a little hard to keep up with , and i still want to see this picture of this mountain you claim has been reshaped to look like Montezuma . what harm will come from that . i just want to compare it to the ancient picture books , and the three others that i have seen . ya this whole idea of just one place is entertaining i guess but the fact is there should be 11 tombs at least . and i have it on pretty good authority they are not all in the superstition mountains . chicomoztoc is vast . and there very well could be a small piece of the puzzle in the Arizona dessert , but you have not sold me yet. don't worry BB i am not going down there . you said you are not a treasure hunter so maybe you don't understand what it is i am saying here . these things could change the world if found, but it is up to the finder to decide if that will be a good thing or a bad one . now i have not insulted you , and if you have honestly found one of them i would like to see a picture of the marker .
    Talk sense to a fool and he calls you foolish. Euripides

  12. #491
    um
    Nemo me impune lacesset

    Jan 2005
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    Re: has montezuma's tomb been found ...?

    Hmm, since it seems that Montezuma was in fact cremated on a bonfire, is it possible that his ashes might have been given the honor of a tomb? Just pondering...
    Oroblanco
    SUPPORT THE BEEF INDUSTRY - EAT BEEF
    "We must find a way, or we will make one."--Hannibal Barca

  13. #492
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    Re: has montezuma's tomb been found ...?

    well the first montezuma might have had a tomb . i think the thing we might be missing here is the name montuzumas treasure may not be correct at all. i am not the one claiming to have found montazuma II image on a mountain , but the ideograms are not that hard to compare to . [img][/img]
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    Talk sense to a fool and he calls you foolish. Euripides

  14. #493
    Charter Member

    Dec 2005
    Arizona
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    Re: has montezuma's tomb been found ...?

    Roy,

    To get the proper perspective on how Moctezuma's body was treated after death, you really need to read the complete accounts of both priests. The body was not properly prepared for cremation, but taken directly to the pile of wood and set on fire. Compare that to the treatment of Itzquauhtzin's body:

    [Itzquauhtzin's body they carried off in a boat to Tlatelolco, of which he had been ruler. For him they felt great pity, great compassion. no one berated him; no one scorned him. Tears flowed.
    "This personage, the high warrior Itzquauhtzin," they said, "tired himself out. He was unfortunate, with Moctezuma. How he must have tired himself out on our account during the time Moctezuma was alive!"
    Then they arrayed him in the palace flag and the accustomed paper wrappings, made offerings to him, and took him to the courtyard of temples, to a place called Quauhxicalco, the eagle vessel, to burn him with great honors.] Page 51. "The War Of Conquest".

    Perhaps we should be searching for the tomb of Itzquauhtzin.

    One wonders how the Priest's stories would have read, had they been treasure hunters.

    Take care,

    Joe


  15. #494
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    Dec 2005
    Arizona
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    Re: has montezuma's tomb been found ...?

    kanabite,

    Motecuhzoma died in 1469.

    "They buried him with a large part of his treasures in the courtyard of his home. This home was where the royal palace now stands....." Page 246. "The History of the Indies of New Spain" by, Fray Diego Duran.

    History tells us where his palace was, so there is no mystery.

    Joe Ribaudo

  16. #495
    us
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    Re: has montezuma's tomb been found ...?

    well Joe please correct me if i am wrong here , but unless they have a little luck in the more recent excavation under the mexico city streets in the flooded tunnels , none of the 11 emperors have been found.
    Talk sense to a fool and he calls you foolish. Euripides

  17. #496
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    Dec 2005
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    Re: has montezuma's tomb been found ...?

    kanabite,

    Each and every day that could change with the turn of a spade. It is likely they have found the tomb, as you have hinted, of Huehuetlatoani Ahuitzotl, who died in 1502. If you are following the story of that excavation, you know that date is one of the important clues as to what they have found.

    To date, as far as I know, you are correct......technically.

    Perhaps I should have written: Historically there is no mystery. In other words, he was not taken to Arizona or Utah......etc. to be interred.

    Joe Ribaudo

  18. #497
    um
    Nemo me impune lacesset

    Jan 2005
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    Re: has montezuma's tomb been found ...?

    Cactusjumper wrote:
    To get the proper perspective on how Moctezuma's body was treated after death, you really need to read the complete accounts of both priests.
    Well Joe thanks for the suggestion; my interest is not quite that deep, and I don't actually "need" to know; I was under the impression that no special tomb was prepared for Montezuma at all and that he was held in fairly low esteem at the time of his death. My question was whether anyone thinks it possible that Montezuma's ashes could have been placed in a tomb, which seems unlikely to me. Blindbowman's statement about having found the "tomb of Montezuma" thus took me by surprise (like so many statements) and I asked him if perhaps his impression of the "tomb of Montezuma" might not be symbolic rather than literal, but he insists it is literally true and mentioned having spoken with Montezuma himself. So I am trying to determine whether his theory is possible, not whether it is plausible. Let me be a bit more specific.

    They toss Montezuma onto a heap of wood and burn it, then what? Would someone then be able to sift out his ashes/remains from the wood ashes? Or would it be pretty tough to tell where Montezuma began and wood ash ended? I am no expert on cremation, but I think the large bones might survive such treatment (i recall hearing how the large bones and skull are later ground up at crematoriums) so PERHAPS it would be possible to separate "something" after cremation that could be put into a tomb, right? Or do you think the fire would be hot enough/long enough to result in virtually nothing that could be later separated as human remains? In other ancient cultures that practiced cremation, the process could be complex or stupefyingly simple. What do you think? Could someone have sifted out Montezuma from an ash-pile to place in a tomb? Thank you in advance...
    Oroblanco
    SUPPORT THE BEEF INDUSTRY - EAT BEEF
    "We must find a way, or we will make one."--Hannibal Barca

  19. #498
    Charter Member

    Dec 2005
    Arizona
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    Re: has montezuma's tomb been found ...?

    Roy,

    I am unsure how to answer your last post. When you say "possible".......anything is possible, but to understand the chances for Moctezuma's ashes being placed in a tomb you would need to delve deeper into the history than you are willing to do.

    Done properly, his ashes would have been removed and place into a jar, along with his jewelry and precious stones. He would be buried with all of his possessions including his slaves, who would be sacrificed in his honor. The rites would last around ten days. None of that seems to have taken place.

    I have no idea why anyone would try to follow bowman's reasoning, other than for a little idle amusement, but I wish you well on that convoluted journey. Not much mystery as to why he is on that trip himself. Not to worry, as he will be back shortly to give us more to ponder.

    Have a good night,

    Joe

  20. #499
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    the missing booty ?????

    where is the gold ??“ Surrounded at Tlatelolco, the Aztec lords decided to surrender on August 13, 1521. Emperor Cuauhtémoc went by canoe. He was taken to Cortés.
    "And so the war ended, we laid down our shields. We have suffered enough! Some fled across the lake others across the causeways. Spanish soldiers stopped people everywhere, looking for gold. They stripped the women, even peering into their mouths. As for the men many were taken and branded on the cheeks."

    "But what of the gold?" demanded Cortés. Cuauhtémoc directed that all that he had in his canoe be brought forth.

    "Is that all there is?" replied Cortés. An Aztec lord reminded the Spanish commander that they had taken all the gold, but had lost it in the Tolteca canal when they fled the city the year before.

    "Let Cortés listen," he said. "This is how that treasure was made. When Motecuhzoma was alive, war was declared and we, the Mexicas, the Tlalteoloca, the Tepaneca, and the Acolhua campaigned together. When we conquered, when a city fell, we all returned to our cities. Only later the people of the conquered cities came to us and brought their tribute: jade, turquoise, gold, and precious feathers; it was all brought here to Tenochtitlan… and now it is lost."

    —Florentine Codex

    Talk sense to a fool and he calls you foolish. Euripides

  21. #500
    Charter Member

    Dec 2005
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    Re: has montezuma's tomb been found ...?

    kanabite,

    Father Sahagun's "Florentine Codex" provides all of the information you need to explain where the gold came from, where it went and where it stood in importance to Aztec society. After all, what we are still primarily interested in......is the gold. Every Aztec knew, strangely enough, that the Spaniards were not interested in the real treasures they possessed: Jadeite, turquoise and precious feathers. Like you and I, they were only interested in.....gold.

    Your quoting of Father Sahagun's word's in the Florentine Codex, may have left out a little of the message:

    ["Cortes asks if this is absolutely all of it (the gold)," Marina said to him.
    "Perhaps some of the people got away with some," the ruler's deputy said. "It will be found. Our lord Cortes will have it."
    Then the high judge Auelitoctzin spoke. "let the nobleman, our lord Cortes, listen. This is how our treasure was acumulated. When Moctezuma was still alive, when a conquest was made, the Mexicans, Tlatelolcans, Tepanecans, and Acolhuacanians campaigned together. All the Mexicans, all the Acolhuacanians, all the floating garden people, all of us campaigned together in a war of conquest.
    "Then when the city fell, we returned, all separately, to our cities. Later the people of the conquered city came to us. They brought their tribute-the things which became the victors' goods: the jadeite, the gold, the precious feathers, the other precious stones, the fine turquoise, the lovely cotinga, the roseate spoonbill....The gave it to Moctezuma; it came here together. All the tribute, all the gold was together here in Tenochtitlan...." The War Of Conquest.

    This is where Sahagun's account ends.

    The Aztecs gave up everything.....Their lives, their country, their treasures, their women and eventually their gods. Cortes was not satisfied, and even today, we are not satisfied.

    What was gone/lost, was the source of the Aztec gold, that being the people of Mexico and the tribute they paid to the Triple Alliance that was in the end, Moctezuma.

    If you are asking specifically what happened to the gold that "fell into the Canal of the Toltecs", you can find that on page 142 of "The Broken Spears".

    Take care,

    Joe Ribaudo

 

 
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