has montezuma's tomb been found ...?

[lamar]

Dear cactusjumper;
Congratulations! You've just made it onto my IGNORE list! Have a nice day!
LAMAR

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[cactusjumper]

Dear Lamar,

Even though you have put me on "ignore", I want to make this post to you and to those who have been following our conversation. My sense of humor is often biting, and not everyone takes it kindly. It is especially hard for those who don't really know me that well. I just turned 64, and don't expect I will change all that much in the years ahead.

I really love history, and even though I don't have the kind of sources that you have, I take the knowledge that has come my way with great respect. Having said that, it follows that I hold the people who have worked their tails off to gather that history and blend it into the books that have held me enthralled since I was a preteen, in very high regard.

I have personal friends who are authors and I know the great lengths they went to to gather the most accurate information they could. Like all of us, they made mistakes. Because of their own love for what they were doing, those mistakes were few and minor. They detracted nothing from the overall value of their work.

When someone denigrates the historical authors, they denigrate one of the real passions in my life. You are not the first to do that, and probably won't be the last. However, my reaction will always be the same....to my last breath.

I have the books of: Bolton, Ducrue, Prescott, Castaneda, (Fay Jackson Smith, John L. Kessell, and Francis J. Fox), Dunne, Polzer, Diego Duran, Manfred Barthel, Carrasco Sessions, Francisco Garces, Marc Simmons, Joseph Och, Jacobo Sedelmayr, Translated and annotated by Peter Masten Dunne, "Letters of Cortes" translated by Francis Augustus MacNutt, Malachi Martin, Paul Roca, Pradeau & Rasmussen, "California Voyages" Translation of original documents by Henrt R. Wagner, David Weber, Cynthia Radding, Diana Hadley, Susan M. Deeds, Michael D. Coe, Michael E. Smith..........etc.

Many of these works needed to be translated from the original. I have often contacted a number of these authors and have always found them to be very open, friendly and respectful of my novice standing. I have faith in their works. In my case, there is no other choice and I am fine with that.

I tried to soften my barbs towards you with a small bit of humor. It is my failing that you did not see that.

My apologies for any thoughtless insults, perceived or real.

Take care,

Joe

[Oroblanco]

HOLA amigos,
My apologies for not replying sooner, (it is calving season here) seems we have had some interesting discussion and misunderstanding. First, to reply:

Lamar wrote

Estimado OroBlanco;
Claro q. si, mi amigo! Espanyol utilizes las formas de masculinos y femininas for casi todos de las palabras, por eso, sigues igual en la lingua latin! Espanyol es una forma de latin de criollo, pero, por todos modos, eran cambiando cuando eran el invasion de los morros. Por eso, espanyol no es muy cerca de la lingua de latin original. Catalan is much mas cerca de su propio forma de latin.
Su amigo;

Usted está correcto mi amigo. Mi español es muy limitado pero estoy aprendiendo. El latín ha sido muy provechoso en esto.

<For our English speaking friends - "You are correct my friend. My Spanish is very limited, but I am learning. Latin has been very helpful in this.">

I still have trouble with getting pronunciation correct and often the correct gender for objects, which some friends seem to find quite amusing!

Lamar and Cactusjumper - I hope we can reach an understanding here as the discussion has been quite interesting and informative. I have read a post and taken it as insult when there was none really (all too often, to be honest) sometimes when something is questioned it comes across as borderline hostility when in reality it was just a question. I read through these replies and it appears that is what has happened. I hope we can remain friends, especially when we have so many common interests. You both have much to add to these discussion forums, that would benefit all.

Good luck and good hunting amigos, I hope you all find the treasures that you seek.
Oroblanco

[cactusjumper]

Roy,

Thank you for your thoughts.

I have no hard feelings towards Lamar, and never have. There are times when it seems important to question people's facts. I don't feel I am attacking the person, but their "evidence". I don't always agree with what he says, but do respect his opinions. Come to think of it, I believe we have been down that same road before.

It should be obvious that I enjoyed our conversations, and to be honest, I always felt he was way above me in any discussion. As you know, I don't always let that respect lighten my heavy handed replies.

Hope all is well with you and Beth.

Take care,

Joe

[Oroblanco]

HOLA amigo Joe!
Yes we have, (mea culpa if memory serves) and I hope that our friend Lamar will soon take you off ignore. I am pretty sure that if you had intended to be insulting and/or offensive, there would be no ambiguity in your words.

All is well here, even making progress better than hoped. Most of the ground is not even frozen, which has allowed us to have several brief outings with the detectors - hard to believe in February and early March in Dakota. (I got to tell you too - I've been eyeing those old wheel ruts of the Cheyenne stage road while at work, now if I could only talk the boss into letting me fool around there! ) I hope all is well with you and yours and you are having a great winter season, and will keep sending that nice warm weather north!
your friends in 'Dakota Territory'
Roy & Beth

[lamar]

Dear CubFan64;
The dangers associated with mistranslations are great and it would certainly behoove the well rounded researcher to perform their own translations, as much as they are able to, that is. There exists countless examples of mistranslated works and I am sure there will be many more to come.

Please bear in mind that, using our current language, English, we are able to express over 10,000 different emotional states, whereas in Latin we can only express around 500 and in classical Greek a mere 100. This is where problems typically arise. One should never use an emotional state to translate a document where did not exist previously. For a good example, we can use the Lords' Prayer, which was originally written in Greek and later translated into Latin and studied by legions of Roman Catholic theologians. Then, in a fit of reform, the prayer was translated into English. It was mangled beyond belief during the Latin-to-English so well translation and I use this prayer as an example only because practically everyone knows it by heart:
Pater noster, qui es in caelis, sanctificetur Nomen tuum.
Our Father, who art in Heaven, hallowed by Thy name.
Our Father, who is in Heaven, sacred is Your Name(the name of God was so sacred that it could not be said aloud).
Adveniat regnum tuum. Fiat voluntas tua, sicut in caelo et in terra.
Thy kingdom come, thy will be done, on Earth and it is in Heaven.
Your kingdom shall come, and your will shall be done, even on Earth as it is done in Heaven(There will be heaven on Eath and the dead shall rise and walk the Earth again).
Panem nostrum quotidianum da nobis hodie, et dimitte nobis debita nostra sicut et nos dimittimus debitoribus nostris
Give us this day our daily bread, and forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us.
For giving us our daily food, and forgiving us our sins while we forgive those who have sinned aginst us.(For the bountiful gifts which You have given to us, for the forgiveness of our sins and for giving us each of us a conscious, thus allowing those who have mistreated us to be forgiven)
Et ne nos inducas in tentationem, sed libera nos a malo.
And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil..(God does NOT lead us into temptation, that would be Satans' job. This mistranslation is a horrible butchery of the Latin text.)
And do not permit us to be tempted(by Satan), instead keep us free from evil(from Satan).

From the above bold faced translation, one can immediately read the untentional mockery of the Latin prayer, which was translated from Latin into English over the course of perhaps a week or so, by a handful of Protestant reformers. In their sincere attempt to provide an accurate translation, they did not take into consideration the context of the prayer, rather they attempted a word-for-word type of tranlsation. And because of their mistakes, for centuries countless English-speaking Christians have been reciting the prayer incorrectly.
Your friend;
LAMAR

[cactusjumper]

Dear Lamar,

Your example of the "Lord's Prayer" is and excellent one. I would submit that the Latin , being the third translation, really brings home your point. The original, in Aramaic, reads as follows:

Oh thou, from whom the breath of life comes, who fills all realms of sound, light and vibration.

May your light be experienced in my utmost holiest.

Your Heavenly Domain approaches.

Let Your will come true - in the universe, just as on earth.

Give us wisdom for our daily need.

Detach the fetters of faults that bind us, like we let go the guilt of others.

Let us not be lost in superficial things, but let us be freed from that what keeps us off from our true purpose.

From you comes the all-working will, the lively strength to act, the song that beautifies all and renews itself from age to age.

Sealed in trust, faith and truth.
__________________________________________________ __________

Each language that was used to translate the prayer injected it's own understanding of the meaning of the words from the previous translation. The question that remains, for me, is if anything is lost in the various translations? Perhaps some of the finer shades of meaning, but what about the underlying message?

Do you consider the Latin version more expressive of intent than the original, or was a great deal lost in that third translation?

Take care,

Joe

[lamar]

Dear cactusjumper;
Thank you for the compliment my friend, however, the original text of Our lords' Prayer was not written in Aramic, rather it was written in Classical Greek. Many people incorrectly think that The New Testament was first recorded in the Aramaic/Syriac/Assyrian family of languages, however nothing could be further from the truth, my friend!

The entire New Testament was originally written in what we now call Classical Greek and this is because by the time Jesus walked the Earth, the entire Middle East scholastic community recorded virtually everything in the Greek language. This included the Romans in the Middle East as well. The existing Latin texts of the Romans in the Middle East during the time of Jesus were all originally transcribed in Greek then translated into Latin upon reaching Rome.

Therefore, both references to Our Lords' Prayer, the first in the Gospel of Matthew 6:9–13 and the second being the Gospel of Luke 11:2–4, were recorded in Greek and copies of these original texts remain housed in the Vatican libraries today. The original Greek text from the Gospel of Matthew is as follows:
Πάτερ ἡμῶν ὁ ἐν τοῖς οὐρανοῖς·
ἁγιασθήτω τὸ ὄνομά σου·
ἐλθέτω ἡ βασιλεία σου·
γενηθήτω τὸ θέλημά σου, ὡς ἐν οὐρανῷ καὶ ἐπὶ τῆς γῆς·
τὸν ἄρτον ἡμῶν τὸν ἐπιούσιον δὸς ἡμῖν σήμερον·
καὶ ἄφες ἡμῖν τὰ ὀφειλήματα ἡμῶν,
ὡς καὶ ἡμεῖς ἀφίεμεν τοῖς ὀφειλέταις ἡμῶν·
καὶ μὴ εἰσενέγκῃς ἡμᾶς εἰς πειρασμόν,
ἀλλὰ ῥῦσαι ἡμᾶς ἀπὸ τοῦ πονηροῦ.


In all reality, translating from Classical Greek into Latin is not such a difficult chore as both languages share the same root structures, therefore the emotional sentiments of the two languages are very similiar. And since both languages were used at roughly the same time, many scholars of the period were bi-lingual, making the task of translating an sentiment from Greek into Latin much easier.

In all reality, the Lords' Prayer was not translated into Aramaic until sometime after the 1st century AD, therefore Latin remains the second translation of the Lords' Prayer. Strictly as an aside, the Roman Catholic church recognizes the Classical Greek texts of the New Testamant and as such they remain valid in the eyes of the Vatican. If there are any Roman Catholics who wish to hear the Mass in the traditional Greek form, that is also considered to be a valid form of the Mass. In fact, the Roman Catholic church traditionally celebrated Mass in Classical Greek until about the 4th century AD, when they switched over to Latin. The Orthodox family of churches still considers the classical Greek Mass to be the true Mass of Jesus and the 12 Apostles.

I hope this clarifies things somewhat.
Your friend;
LAMAR

[cactusjumper]

Dear Lamar,

I am aware that some studies of the Gospels strongly suggest that "Jesus habitually taught in Aramaic, not in Greek." It seems likely that "The Lord's Prayer" was originally delivered in Aramaic and later translated into Greek and then into Latin from the Greek translation.

The real problem, as I understand it, came when the prayer was translated back into Aramaic. The exact Aramaic wording would have been lost and could only be approximated. In truth, it seems that neither Jesus nor his disciples wrote any of his words down at time he was speaking. That was the Jewish custom in Jesus' day. Only the Old Testament was written. All other teaching by the Rabbis was oral. The Gospel story was, of course, not translated until around fifty-years after Jesus' death. I believe that heralded the end of the Aramaic Gospel documents.

I would not say you are wrong in this, as I am not educated in the subject. I do find it an interesting question though. Your using the Lord's Prayer as an example of the difficulty of translating history accurately, would be magnified a thousandfold if we were translating it from a language that outdates the birth of Jesus by close to one thousand years.

In all probability, we could probably do a better job today, than say.......a thousand years ago.

Nice post. Thank you.

Take care,

Joe

[pegleglooker]

hey gang,
aaaaaa cool subject.... But how does Montezuma fit in

PLL

[lamar]

Dear group;
There exists two opposing camps of scholars in regards to the New Testament. First, there are the vast majority of theologians and scholars, who believe in the Greek Primacy, which maintain that the entire New Testament was originally written in Koine Greek. Next, there exists a very small minority of Amamaic Primacy scholars, who maintain the New Testament was penned in Aramaic then translated into Greek at a late date. And thirdly, to further confuse matters, there exists a third group who believe in the possibility that the New Testament was written in Koine Greek and Aramaic rather simultaniously.

Koine Greek arrived in the Middle East via the armies of Alexander the Great and it was he who united Greece and colonized the known world from Eygpt to the fringes of India by the year 324BC and for the very first time in history, the entire Middle East knew one language, that is to say, they all knew Koine Greek. Even after the rise of the Roman Empire, Koine Greek was spoken by practically everyone, including the Romans themselves, who conquered Macedonia and reduced it to a Roman Province in the year 148 BC.

It may be also frankly assumed that any time there is mention of Jewish customs or traditions, that text would have been originally written in Greek, as the writings were obviously meant for a tribe of people whom would not have been familiar with Jewish customs or traditions. It may be logically asserted that if the writings were meant for the Jewish people, all mention of Jewish customs and traditions would have been omitted as the Jewish peoples would have certainly been initimately familiar with their own customs and traditions.

Koine Greek remained the lingua franca, or commonly spoken language, throughout the Roman Middle Eastern provinces until at least 300 AD, when it was gradually replaced with Latin. Strictly as an aside, the proponents of the Aramaic Primacy are mostly an Internet-based group and and a such it does NOT consist of accredited theologians or scholars therefore their claims may be repudated with extreme prejudice.

And now, to answer the question, how does Montezuma fit into all of this? He doesn't, however it's an interesting diversion to a discussion which has gone on for seven pages with no concrete conclusions either way. Besides, if a forum member takes away a bit of knowledge from this discussion, then I consider it to be a very good act.
Your friend;
LAMAR

[lamar]

Dear pegleglooker;
I am stating that when doing research, it is many times not enough to take the written data at it's face value. One therefore needs to project themself into the period in question and attempt to understand the imposed sentiments of the writings, instead of merely attempting to perform a word for word translation. Countless misintrepretations result from this method, my friend.

For example, if a Spanish conquistador wrote "I saw a city of gold on the far horizon, shining in the evening sun." this may NOT mean that he actually saw a city made of gold. What he most probably saw was a village of yellow clay reflecting the suns' evening rays through the rising heat waves, thus transforming it into a vast splendid golden city.
Your friend;
LAMAR

[pegleglooker]

hey Lamar,
I could not have agreed with you any more, the language, the culture, and the politics of the times total dictate what the TRUE meaning of what is said. I have read many books from the 1800's and the language of the their written word can be a bit confusing.

You wrote " if a Spanish conquistador wrote "I saw a city of gold on the far horizon, shining in the evening sun." this may NOT mean that he actually saw a city made of gold. "

In my own opinion, I would have thought that he had come upon a town as the sun was setting, and as the sun set it engulfed the town in what could only be called " a city of gold "...... But then that might be the romantic in me....

PLL

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Good evening, I agree, one must decypher the "intended context" of any translation, this is poorly done in many cases, and here is where many documents in the archives differ..

Just look at how many meanings can be expressed by the simple "OH". or stating "S.O.B," this can run from endearment to extrememe hostility. A literal translation may be far from the origional intent or context.

This was one of the major hurdles that I had in the search for Tayopa.

As for a city of Gold, I have already mentioned the 7 Ciudades de de Cibola on the Sinaloa border in the Barranca de Conijaque. They mixed iron pyrites with the Adobe that they plastered on their outside walls. You can just imagine the effect from a distance in the sun. GOLD, GOLD, GOLD houses

Don Jose de La Mancha

[JakefaePa]

Please excuse me for butting in , will blindbowman ever return to his thread do you think ? I read most of it last week and as absurd as some of his posts were ...there was one or two that interested me.
One in particular actually , if your out there blindbowman send me a message if youd be so kind.Thanks

[lamar]

Dear JakefaePa;
It would seem that our dear friend Blindbowman has given up the quest and has decided to pursue other, more relaxing,(and sane) activities. Or perhaps he was institutionalized? One never knows the effects that the blazing hot Arizona sun can have on a man. This is why proper head protection must always be worn, my friends! Merely wearing a tinfoil hat without a protective outer garment can bake a persons' brain in short order.
Your friend;
LAMAR

[cactusjumper]

Dear Lamar,

Bowman lives in New York, not Arizona.

Tale care.

Joe

[lamar]

Dear cactusjumper;
I distinctly recall Bowman telling me that he had been in Arizona. Perhaps he was referring to one of his spiritual forays?
Your friend;
LAMAR

[Cubfan64]

Yes he claimed to have been in the Superstitions a couple times at least I believe, but as Joe mentioned, he claimed to be living in upper New York state.

As far as what he's up to, I discovered that he had been banned for a month or two from a website forum focused on the supernatural, astral projection, cosmic messages, etc... - kinda hard to imagine how someone with similar views could get booted from there, but he succeeded - I believe it had something to do with his supriority complex kicking into full gear (imagine that!).

He was allowed back on, and I think the last I saw he had spent 1 or 2 days solving the zodiac killer case using some kind of "code breaking skill" that only his amazing mind could solve. He was sending his report in to the Albany, NY FBI - I'm certain they'll give that it's proper attention.

I found it amusing that the majority of folks at this other forum have called him crazy, nonensical, delusional, etc... - again, pretty tough to do!

I have no interest in the other forums he at least used to be a regular on such as Yahooka.com, grasscity.com, weedbay.net so I can't say if he's still active there or not.

[JakefaePa]

Early on in the thread another poster who seemed pukka claimed blindbowman gave her a reading and was amazingly accurate ..can we verify that really is the case or just one of his very few fans ?