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Thread: has montezuma's tomb been found ...?

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  1. #511

    Mar 2004
    New Mexico
    616
    7 times

    Re: has montezuma's tomb been found ...?

    "You are mistaken here. The Aztec's own story is well documented by a number historians......of the time. Not the least of which, were the Aztecs themselves.

    "Neither side can be completely believed, but it's all we have. One side is no better or worse when it comes to the true facts of the events. In all cases, I choose to take the historical accounts over the treasure hunters."


    Joe: I'll concede I might be mistaken with the same enthusiasm I'll concede you might. No historians were present in that compound, on that wall. None were present during the bloodbaths afterward. We have the word of Spaniards, whom we know to have had interests of their own in their [later] descriptions. As Bernal Diaz comments parenthetically and sneeringly referring to the contemporary History by Francisco Lopez de Gomera and his descriptions of the conquest and the deeds performed, "with always an eye on the live relations".

    The historians of the time were Catholic priests, some of whom sometimes can be believed. Correspondence by participants can also sometimes be believed when self-interest isn't better served by obfuscations. This includes Spaniard accounts of Aztec accounts of the events. [And the Aztecs weren't doing a lot of history writing at the time.

    But it isn't necessary you and I agree. My post referred to and was addressed to blindbowman and his project. If I could offer him some potentially helpful information I'd do it. But there's nothing to suggest he's looking for negative conjectures from anyone. They won't deter him from the task he's given himself and they won't help him along it.

    Academic arguments about what's valid and what isn't in history might make for a PHD thesis, but they don't turn the paths of those who've chosen a course for themselves and believe themselves to be right.

    Jack

  2. #512
    um
    Nemo me impune lacesset

    Jan 2005
    DAKOTA TERRITORY
    Tesoro Lobo Supertraq, (95%) Garrett Scorpion (5%)
    5,710
    1636 times

    Re: has montezuma's tomb been found ...?

    Highmountain wrote:
    there's nothing to suggest he's looking for negative conjectures from anyone. They won't deter him from the task he's given himself and they won't help him along it.
    Well I am guilty of this, but in defense I don't wish to stop Blindbowman (or anyone else) from pursuing their own personal quests - I have been trying to either be convinced of his ideas, or failing that to open the door to other possibilities, some of which have not even been discussed. So often we treasure hunters seem to have "blinders" on when we get some idea or theory to pursue; we will see every possible clue that might support the idea and ignore everything that points in another direction. In doing so we can easily miss out on fantastic discoveries, sort of like the song "looking for gold in a silver mine".

    Oroblanco
    SUPPORT THE BEEF INDUSTRY - EAT BEEF
    "We must find a way, or we will make one."--Hannibal Barca

  3. #513
    Charter Member

    Dec 2005
    Arizona
    5,756
    989 times

    Re: has montezuma's tomb been found ...?

    Jack,

    "And the Aztecs weren't doing a lot of history writing at the time."

    Actually the Aztecs never stopped writing their history, even after the conquest. I would suggest you read the Elegies written by the post-Conquest Aztec poets. They were done by people who had just lived the events. The Aztec written records were done in the form of song by 1524 and in written narrative by 1528.

    Take care,

    Joe

  4. #514

    Mar 2004
    New Mexico
    616
    7 times

    Re: has montezuma's tomb been found ...?

    I have been trying to either be convinced of his ideas, or failing that to open the door to other possibilities, some of which have not even been discussed. So often we treasure hunters seem to have "blinders" on when we get some idea or theory to pursue; we will see every possible clue that might support the idea and ignore everything that points in another direction. In doing so we can easily miss out on fantastic discoveries, sort of like the song "looking for gold in a silver mine".

    Oroblanco


    I'd definitely be interested in reading about the ones not yet discussed.

    I agree completely with you about the blinders and I tend to be among the most blinded when I'm following an idea I've locked my mind on. And I continually pay the price by having to eat my own words, if only in my own mind.

    The reason I'm interested in the Aztec at the moment involves some dearly held notions I've savored for decades and am having to cultivate a taste for now.

    I'll be eating my convictions of the past so long as I'm alive, I don't doubt, but I'd like to try to learn something occasionally don't have to eat later.

    So fire away, amigo. Especially on matters involving Aztec not yet come forth.

    Gracias,
    J

  5. #515

    Mar 2004
    New Mexico
    616
    7 times

    Re: has montezuma's tomb been found ...?

    Quote Originally Posted by cactusjumper
    Jack,

    "And the Aztecs weren't doing a lot of history writing at the time."

    Actually the Aztecs never stopped writing their history, even after the conquest. I would suggest you read the Elegies written by the post-Conquest Aztec poets. They were done by people who had just lived the events. The Aztec written records were done in the form of song by 1524 and in written narrative by 1528.

    Take care,

    Joe
    Thanks for the suggestion. The only ones I've read are those available free on guttenberg.org. I didn't find their authenticity convincing. I'll search around for others.

    Thanks,
    J

    Edit: I'm surprised to discover the two of us arguing here. You seem to have a lot of the qualifications of a historian, whether or not you have the credentials. A historian of the sort to go to original sources and has a healthy disregard for the practices of the kind who merely shoot the works of one-another back and forth and call it history.

    As such, I suppose I'd also expect you to be a bit skeptical of songs and traditions. I don't believe everything in the Song of Roland, everything in Homer, and I'd be surprised if you do. Are the Aztec somehow exempt from what we know of the rest of humanity?

  6. #516
    Charter Member

    Dec 2005
    Arizona
    5,756
    989 times

    Re: has montezuma's tomb been found ...?

    Jack,

    Here's one that's easy to find:

    http://www.mexconnect.com/mex_/trave.../slaztec1.html

    You can find more on the Internet, by typing in: aztec records of the conquest.

    Take care,

    Joe


  7. #517

    Mar 2004
    New Mexico
    616
    7 times

    Re: has montezuma's tomb been found ...?

    Quote Originally Posted by cactusjumper
    Jack,

    Here's one that's easy to find:

    http://www.mexconnect.com/mex_/trave.../slaztec1.html

    You can find more on the Internet, by typing in: aztec records of the conquest.

    Take care,

    Joe

    Looks interesting. I'll study on it and sift through it. Doubtless then I'll believe it without my usual held-in-reserve skepticism.

    Thanks
    Jack

  8. #518
    um
    Nemo me impune lacesset

    Jan 2005
    DAKOTA TERRITORY
    Tesoro Lobo Supertraq, (95%) Garrett Scorpion (5%)
    5,710
    1636 times

    Re: has montezuma's tomb been found ...?

    Greetings Highmountain and everyone,

    Highmountain wrote:
    So fire away, amigo. Especially on matters involving Aztec not yet come forth.
    Well I am stepping out onto pretty thin ice here, but one possibility that has been 'danced all round' but not touched on is that a tomb of an Aztec emperor could be located in Arizona, and be named Montezuma (or whichever spelling is preferred) but not be the same Montezuma made famous by the Spanish conquest. IF (that most powerful word) the Aztecs are in fact originally from what is today the southwestern USA (and Arizona specifically) then it is possible that one of their early leaders could have had this famous name. Some historians have postulated this idea already, as an explanation for such landmarks etc that have the name Montezuma's castle, Montezuma's head, etc that these are not referring to the king who died in Tenochtitlan but to one that lived perhaps centuries earlier. This "theoretical" Montezuma might well have been treated with respect on his death and placed in a tomb, several hundred years before any Spanish arrived and before the Aztecs migrated into the central Mexico valley where they grew powerful. This is one of the reasons why I am willing to keep an open mind to our mutual friend's ideas, for he may have found something important and still be "correct" in his interpretation of whom is within, just possibly a different Montezuma.

    The historians admit that Aztec traders were active over much of the southwest, but so far it appears they had no permanent settlements or outposts yet discovered. If their homeland is here however it is only a matter of time until we can discover and identify their old home, perhaps even the tombs of one or more of their leaders. What might be found in such a tomb is an intriguing question, as we know that many Mesoamerican cultures practiced cremation of the dead, but the Aztecs are not native to that region and might have picked up the practice from their neighbors. I would guess that a pre-Columbian Aztec tomb might have turquoise and jade, Quetzal feathers, corn, etc - perhaps not a huge pile of glittering gold like King Tut but a treasure by any definition of that term.

    So now that I have stepped out onto the thin ice amigo, would you care to share your own personal "dearly held notions"? I promise not to toss any rocks!
    Oroblanco
    SUPPORT THE BEEF INDUSTRY - EAT BEEF
    "We must find a way, or we will make one."--Hannibal Barca

  9. #519

    Mar 2004
    New Mexico
    616
    7 times

    Re: has montezuma's tomb been found ...?

    I'll bite, but I'll keep it small at first and to subjects Aztec [peripherally] related.

    I remember around 1950, '51 first learning about the Spanish incursions into the [now] southwestern US in search of what my teacher called 'the Seven Cities of Sighbola'.... I blushed a lot of years later when I discovered not everyone pronounced it so. From that day until recently I never had cause to question they were pure fantasy on the part of the Spaniards and merely were an illustration of greed, the lust for power, and the inevitable stupidity of our forebears.

    During the past months I've been forced to reconsider that conviction and until I joined this forum I wouldn't have mentioned it to a soul, because I quite frankly figured I was the only person on the planet to think Cibola actually probably existed and the ruins remain.

    How's that for a beginning?

    Thanks for sharing the observations I've asked for. Maybe it would be a good time to start another thread so's we aren't pre-empting blindbowman with his if we proceed with this?

    Jack

  10. #520
    um
    Nemo me impune lacesset

    Jan 2005
    DAKOTA TERRITORY
    Tesoro Lobo Supertraq, (95%) Garrett Scorpion (5%)
    5,710
    1636 times

    Re: has montezuma's tomb been found ...?

    Thank you Jack for sharing, and I don't find it amusing. I keep old Heinrich Schliemann in mind when we talk about "legends" as he was very much ridiculed for his search for Troy. By any chance have you read Coronados letter about having found Cibola? There is a fair amount of material online, here is a site with some eyewitness reports of the battle of Hawikuh:
    I agree with your belief, Cibola does exist and the ruins can be found. As for the reported gold of Cibola - well according to Coronado there was little to be found there, but it is also possible that the people of Cibola had heard of the Spanish craze for gold and had taken steps to conceal it from them before they ever arrived. In this case, a tremendous treasure could be still out there waiting to be dug up. The other "legend" pursued by Coronado - Quivira, I believe also existed but was likely passing away or had just recently died out by the time he was marching into Kansas. I think the Indio reports of Quivira were really talking about the so-called "Mound-builder" cultures of the Mississippi valley and extending over a vast area. The Mound-builders used copper for tools and weapons, and as most European explorers reported, most Amerindian cultures valued copper over gold - so would it be surprising for the people of the southwest to have heard of a vast culture that lived far to the northeast, a people who had large towns and even cities, and had supplies of copper?

    If you start a new thread I will happily migrate there to continue this, so as not to "step" on our thread-creator's area, just let me know? I would appreciate it and probably Blindbowman would also.
    your friend,
    Roy ~ Oroblanco
    SUPPORT THE BEEF INDUSTRY - EAT BEEF
    "We must find a way, or we will make one."--Hannibal Barca

  11. #521
    us
    Ken Chichester

    Apr 2003
    Phoenix, AZ
    Tesoro Lobo, Minelab Sovereign XS 2 Pro and Fisher 2 box
    137
    3 times
    All Types Of Treasure Hunting

    Re: has montezuma's tomb been found ...?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cubfan64
    I WAS in West Boulder Canyon for quite some time though, and that's west of Weaver's Needle, but to be honest I wasn't really in any position to do that much exploring on this trip. I was pretty much out there to hike as much as I could and get a decent "lay of the land" so to speak so when I read about things I can picture their approximate locations in my mind.
    Paul,

    I'm sure you have heard of the "free" Google Earth program by now. Over the last several years (since it first came out) I have spent many, and I mean many, hours touring areas that I intend to search ahead of time using that program. I even do a "virtual fly over" from several different directions to get a real good "feel" for the terrain before I go.

    Unfortunately that area of the Superstitions you were discussing in this forum on March 31st is still "undefined" as far as detail goes, but the elevations are somewhat accurate. Perhaps a little computer time using that, or similar programs would help to inform you as to what to expect so "hiking to get a lay of the land" is not required once you get there so you can spend more time on your area of interest. Of course, the view from the ground is unparalleled and is in itself a treat.

    I have been in those mountains more than a few times, both on foot and on horseback and agree the trip is worth it, every time. Once you've been there you can't forget it and your mind will replay it over and over before the next trip. But I still come back saying to myself “I wish I had taken more pictures or a little more time “on that place” or “in this area.”

    If you are planning on attending the LDM Rendezvous this year, try it before you come. Randy says it will be on Oct 24th ,25th and 26th. Clay Worst will be speaking Friday night. Just remember what he said on the Discovery Channel. In a nutshell "Don't ask... cause I won't tell you."

    Enjoy,
    Ken “dustcap” Chichester
    Never, never give up

  12. #522
    ca
    May 2007
    1,791
    680 times
    All Types Of Treasure Hunting

    Re: has montezuma's tomb been found ...?

    http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/map-machine#theme=Street&c=0|0&sf=187648892.534865

    Try this site Dustcap.

    or this one,which may be down at the moment.

    http://www.flashearth.com/

    Regards:SH.

    Hell,you ain't never too old to look!

  13. #523
    us
    Feb 2006
    New Hampshire - USA
    Fisher CZ21, Teknetics T2 & Minelab Sovereign GT
    2,303
    451 times
    All Types Of Treasure Hunting
    Banner Finds (1)

    Re: has montezuma's tomb been found ...?

    Quote Originally Posted by dustcap
    Quote Originally Posted by Cubfan64
    I WAS in West Boulder Canyon for quite some time though, and that's west of Weaver's Needle, but to be honest I wasn't really in any position to do that much exploring on this trip. I was pretty much out there to hike as much as I could and get a decent "lay of the land" so to speak so when I read about things I can picture their approximate locations in my mind.
    Paul,

    I'm sure you have heard of the "free" Google Earth program by now. Over the last several years (since it first came out) I have spent many, and I mean many, hours touring areas that I intend to search ahead of time using that program. I even do a "virtual fly over" from several different directions to get a real good "feel" for the terrain before I go.

    Unfortunately that area of the Superstitions you were discussing in this forum on March 31st is still "undefined" as far as detail goes, but the elevations are somewhat accurate. Perhaps a little computer time using that, or similar programs would help to inform you as to what to expect so "hiking to get a lay of the land" is not required once you get there so you can spend more time on your area of interest. Of course, the view from the ground is unparalleled and is in itself a treat.

    I have been in those mountains more than a few times, both on foot and on horseback and agree the trip is worth it, every time. Once you've been there you can't forget it and your mind will replay it over and over before the next trip. But I still come back saying to myself “I wish I had taken more pictures or a little more time “on that place” or “in this area.”

    If you are planning on attending the LDM Rendezvous this year, try it before you come. Randy says it will be on Oct 24th ,25th and 26th. Clay Worst will be speaking Friday night. Just remember what he said on the Discovery Channel. In a nutshell "Don't ask... cause I won't tell you."

    Enjoy,
    Ken “dustcap” Chichester
    Hi Dustcap - I've spent quite a bit of time with those aerial maps as well and you're right that they do help, but I've always been the kind of person who learns from "experience" and not books. Being there in person and having someone showing you around and pointing things out to you while you look over your map makes it SO much easier to figure out the terrain.

    I don't recall which thread it was in, but I noticed you're probably going to be gone during the Rendevouz. I'm actually going to be there for 2 weeks (Oct. 16 - Oct 30), and although I have some plans already for the early part of my trip, maybe we can still get together for a little bit?

    PM me if you'd like.

    paul

    Oh - by the way, SH is right on those other 2 map websites. Flashearth is remarkable (when it's working properly) - lately it's been rather iffy though. When it's working though, use the Ask.com maps and in some areas when you zoom in, you'd almost swear you were in a helicopter hovering over the locations!
    "There is no getting away from a treasure that once fastens upon your mind" - Joseph Conrad (Nostromo)

  14. #524
    us
    Dec 2008
    19

    This is an incredible Thread

    I have been reading this thread for about two days on and off. I have to say i miss ole BB. He was a very interesting fellow. I don't necessarily buy into all that he was selling, but I do think he did a fantastic job of getting everyone to put on their thinking caps. He reminded me of something that I have read. I wish I could I remember where, but the title of the book I think was:

    "The Legend of 13 Crystal Skulls"

    The reason ole BB reminded of it was because one fo the skulls or a crystal that was found with it had either aztec markings on it. I think it was the skull. As BB was going on about the different tribes that came from Aztlan and possibly even Atlantis, I found myself beginning to put some interesting questions together in my head.

    1. On one of BB maps it should a possilbe layout of the CLovis people and their trade routes......did anyone notice that they were almost all evenly spaced from the coast? Made me wonder what the elevations of the sites that he marked were and if maybe the ocean was higher back then which would have made these coastal.

    2. There are pyramids on almost every major continent. How did so many different culutres build the same basic structure if they had either not learned the skills from the same place or at least had some form of communication?

    3. How did the crystal skulls come to be? With the recorded equipment the tribes that supposedly possesed these skulls could not have created them.

    4. Why (like the pyramids) were the skulls found all around the world, made the same basic way by different culutures that had no contact with another?

    Crazy questions.....I know, but our good buddy BB tends to make me think outside the box. Which in personal opinion is the way to finding things that haven't been found. If it were that easy to find treasure and the past, there would be no more gold and we would know what happened to everyone and what time it happened.
    If anyone has any answers to the above questions, please feel free to add.
    JC

  15. #525
    Charter Member

    Dec 2005
    Arizona
    5,756
    989 times

    Re: has montezuma's tomb been found ...?

    JC,

    The stories of the crystal skulls have been around for quite some time. Long enough to be completely debunked. You can Google the topic and find out all about them.

    http://skeptoid.com/episodes/4098

    Now they pyramids are another story.

    Take care,

    CJ

 

 
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