has montezumas tomb been found ...?

[cactusjumper]

Re: has montezuma's tomb been found ...?

Paul,

There are plenty of ball courts in Arizona. Their very location and design make them unique and exclusive to the Southwest. It's likely they got the idea from Mesoamerica, but the Hohokam or Cochise cultures are the likely perp's.

One wonders if the idea came north or actually went south. Considering the type of construction, older Southwest ball courts would probably be undetectable......dirt walls.

Wonder why pip deleted his post so quickly It's never a good idea to question his "facts".

There are possible Aztec sites throughout the Southwest. Can anyone identify one ball court, "Mesoamerican" in design?

Thank you in advance,

Joe Ribaudo

 

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[Gossamer]

Re: has montezuma's tomb been found ...?

CJ, Cubby...
I had found that what most were calling ball courts were actually something else indeed. Medicine wheels, or astronomy circles.
I personally had never come across a mention of an actual "ballcourt' which is why I disputed BB. We don't know if these places were created or taken over by the subsequent cultures and put into their religious (ancestor worship) and daily or seasonal lives.
But since I bought myself a jeep... LOL (sold my sissy miata) I think I can go anywhere. For some reason Van Buren is my focus of exploration of late... but I went by the Museum in Tempe and while it was closed I found a walking path and took it around the building, had a strange encounter with a sleeping man, I'm still not sure who scared who worse. I found some info that described a ballcourt in the Pueblo Grande ruins. Since Tempe is pretty much on top of it, I'm still exploring.
My time is crazy I started an antique booth/vintage stuff a run through. I started a Ezine too and when I have it completely up and running will let you guys know.
So my plans to do just some exploring are hit and miss.
CJ, anyone please let me know what is the unique design to Mesoamerican ballcourts. That would be fascinating.
Glad to be back, you guys are great.
Janiece

 

[Cubfan64]

Re: has montezuma's tomb been found ...?

...But since I bought myself a jeep... LOL (sold my sissy miata) I think I can go anywhere...

My time is crazy I started an antique booth/vintage stuff a run through. I started a Ezine too and when I have it completely up and running will let you guys know.
So my plans to do just some exploring are hit and miss.

While there's nothing wrong with a "girly" Miata, you have the mountains at your fingertips now with a Jeep!! Add some hiking boots and a backpack if you haven't already and there ain't noplace you can't get to with some effort

You do sound busy what with your antique booth as well as an Ezine and your other research. What's the focus of the Ezine going to be?

Wish I could be more of a help as far as Mesoamerican sites and possible "ball courts," but it's just not an area I have anything more than a passing interest in and certainly am not educated enough to do more than cut and paste websites I might come across - nothing anyone else can't do.

Take care and drop by here more often now!

 

[pippinwhitepaws]

Re: has montezuma's tomb been found ...?

http://www.aztec-history.com/aztec-ball-game.html

 

[cactusjumper]

Re: has montezuma's tomb been found ...?

Janiece,

Good to see you posting again. I have noticed you pounding around on TN, but seldom posting.

I am no expert, but believe the Hohokam/Cochise ball courts were earthen affairs, while the Mesoamerican ball courts were constructed of stone. The shapes are dissimilar as well. Those in Arizona are oval or partially oval, while the Mayan or Toltec courts are rectangular.

In the post that pip deleted, he mentioned ball courts in Arizona. My guess would be that he might be the one to ask. He has probably seen a few......I see pip has already posted a site for you to visit.

Take care,

Joe

 

[bob123]

Re: has montezuma's tomb been found ...?

POSTSCRIPT: Here is a topo showing the location of Montezuma Head, the site associated with the legend of Montezuma being entombed in Arizona:
http://www.topozone.com/map.asp?lat=32.11479&lon=-112.70598&datum=nad83&u=4&layer=DRG&size=l&s=500

all good pionts of research . but have you considered the fact IMHO there was 3 montezuma's . and you are very right but the treasure of montezuma was said to be sent by montezuma ...i asume he did not take it him self ..the acount stated montezuma's son and 3000 of his men took the treasure northward and when montezuma was in tombed is not known .. he could have been put in the tomb days or weeks or even longer after his death and this would make sence if a mummification had been done wich this is a king , and it would be very unlikely that he was not mummified. in fact i would be totally shocked if he was not ...and if the stone tablets main reason for being made was to piont out montezuma's treasure or tomb with the under standing the chruch in santa ana had some part in this ,,,if not to just store the stone tablets ,it would make little to no logic for the stone tablets to havebeen made in the frist place yet we know for a fact the stone tablets are not fake and were made by a very skilled map maker ...in a spainish scale of messurement of vara ...300 mile distence i spoke of was between santa ana and the supersititionmts ..and you are correct it is a little of 1200 miles from mexico city . yet how far Aztlan was from mexico city is a matter of how far would you go to get away from the black death if it broke out in your home land ...IMHO it has little to do with the distence it self as much as it was to take the king back to his home land , and what better way to hide him then to take him to a place few knew about . its much the same as the legend of AZtlan being in the supersitition mt , this maybe the true reason Aztlan had not been found in the frist place ...

what leed freddy crystall to beleive the chruch stone tablets led to montezuma's treasure ....the chruch in santa ana did , thats where these stone tablets came from ...the same location the treasure trove list of tayopa came from ... and one acount of the massacre fits the discription of the massacre in the superstition mts ...

i totally under stand what you are saying Oro and i agree with the fact this is some distence from mexico city ...yet this distence maybe the only think that makes people beleive it was near mexico city and few would beleive it is were it has been found at this site #1

you can miss led people to beleive its near mexico city . its hard to move the mts them self ...

if there is confussion its not over where the sites are .. its who told who and why they were misled to beleive something that was not true ....


its not proveing montezuma tomb is in the superstitions , its proveing this is Aztlan and chicomoztoc . the indain legends say montezuma was taken back to Aztlan .. see my piont .. his body could have been sent back and the tomb seal at any piont after his death ...and you got to ask your self i the acount said motezuma's son and 3000 of his men . dose this mean montezuma 's 2 son ...i beleive it dose , for two reasons , one the treasure could have vanished and been hiden and they would have had a week head start before cortez enterd the city the secound time .. and if they had a head start and they knew this land , they could have taken the treasure to the supersitition mt and then misled cortez away from the treasure tomb . and then went back and got montezuma's remains ... this would tell me there were some people still loyal to montezuma....

in fact when you atke a good look at the details you have pionted out they make my over all case stronger ...lol

if i am right the 3000 men marched almost the whole way none stop to the superstition mts stright northward threw the vally.....they knew this route north because their home land was north ... it would make almost no common logic for Aztlan to be say 500 miles north of mexico city . this would be very unlikely ... if sickness was why they moved south it would be far more logical that it would a 1000 miles or more northward . and the supersitition mt are in fact as you have just pionted out ...i think i owe you a steak ...lol

in fact i would be very shocked if this ways not Aztlan , it would make good common sence if it was ...the idea 7 tribes would move south and go a few hunderd miles and then set up a new home land is foolish , i beleive it would have had to be at lest 25-30 days away and i find my self agreeing with CJ the secound time this week . i must be going crazy ,,,lol

you would have to take into acount these men were most likely the royal guard and would have been in good condition to make this trip with weight ...most likely not takeing common gold ore . it would have been the kings treasure .only .. the most valueable items ....i think this is part of the reason cortez was so pist it was gone ...

no ,IMHO Aztlan has been found and we should take a better look at what has been found at these sites ,, because they do in fact logically fit the legends better then any other site before them ...

the real question is are we going to talk about it the rest of our lifes or are we going to prove it ....if you look at the facts , one must prove the other , aztlan , chicomoztoc and motezuma's tomb has to all be in the same area .. i have pionted out a logical area that fits all 3 site , i dont think anyone else has ever done that !

many have thoeries to where Aztlan was . but it must fit all 3 of these legends to be the real Aztlan , i think cj made a good controlled guess ...and i do agree , 30-35 days away would be about right

they hide the treasure and then sent 3 groups of men west north and east to mis led cortez on a wild goose chase ,and then went back for montezuma after cortez was gone ...it worked like it was planed to happend this way ...

we dont know how the santa ana chruch found out about these sites , and tayopa ... there are some details still missing ... was the guadalupe de santa ana chruch the sister chruch of the one in the supersitition mt... if i am right and the massacre acount of tayopa is the same massacre in the supersitition mt then there was a chruch in the superstition mts . and the remains of what could be a chruch i found , could in fact be the same chruch , in the same area as all 3 sites ...this would make 6 or 7 legends that all fit this area ....and these 3 sites ....

Yea about them traveling northward i heard someone else claim that they were sarrying idols and had some battle with the spanish and ended up in modern day colorado the guy who told me didnt have all the facts but its still a thought to put into consideration.
-bob

 

[pippinwhitepaws]

Re: has montezuma's tomb been found ...?

"we dont know how the santa ana chruch found out about these sites , and tayopa ... there are some details still missing ... was the guadalupe de santa ana chruch the sister chruch of the one in the supersitition mt... if i am right and the massacre acount of tayopa is the same massacre in the supersitition mt then there was a chruch in the superstition mts . and the remains of what could be a chruch i found , could in fact be the same chruch , in the same area as all 3 sites ...this would make 6 or 7 legends that all fit this area ....and these 3 sites ...."

you found ruins of a church in the superstitions?

 

[Gossamer]

Re: has montezuma's tomb been found ...?

Hello Bob.... interesting.
You are new?
Janiece

 

[whitt459]

Re: has montezuma's tomb been found ...?

me thinks bob is the blindbowman,if so welcome back b.b. we miss you. whitt459

 

[Cubfan64]

Re: has montezuma's tomb been found ...?

you found ruins of a church in the superstitions?

Hi PWP - I don't know whether Bob123 did, but Blindbowman claimed to have found ruins of a church out there yes. If I can find the posts where he mentioned that, I'll copy them here.

 

[pippinwhitepaws]

Re: has montezuma's tomb been found ...?

thank you cubfan.


oh...bob...i have been searching for a chapel in that area....please respond...

 

[Cubfan64]

Re: has montezuma's tomb been found ...?

PWP - this is the only reference I could come up with doing a quick search for past BB posts. He had/has a penchant for editing and/or deleting posts quite often, so it could be the ones I was thinking of are gone now. I highlighted the section where he mentions the church ruins and I know there was alot more discussion about it at one time. I think it was done in the "Tayopa" section. Sorry I couldn't help more.

the blindbowman

Re: tayopa, legend or reality ...?
Reply To This Topic #795 Posted May 22, 2008, 10:29:21 PM

Reply with quoteQuote
tonight after watching those post vanish i set in a chair thinking about what i have risk and what i have found , what a total confusion of legends mix into a total mess ..

then i said to my self all you need to do is lay it out and see what you have that is suported by evidence and facts .

i beleive the site 4 is the seven caves of chicomoztoc ,the catcoms , dated back into the 13,000Bc when the flood took place and the tribes vanision into the earth ,into the catcoms ,,,i have found 3 enterences , two are mine shafts ,one is some kind of old Kiva ladders or Wooden Indian log ladders i know it goes downward into something below ...i have define 6 out of 7 caves , and a ball cort ,the remains of a old church ....

after i set back and looked at the evidence and facts ...one thing remains clear

i have defined a site where all of these things can be found call this site anything you want . so many have called it diffrent things threw the years .. seven caves . catcoms , chicomoztoc, tayopa, sombrero mine the LDM ...

but one thing is clear .. i have define site #4

there are over 35 pionts of interest at site #4

i have bit almost everything i own that i could find what started the legends and i am sure i have ...

 

[pippinwhitepaws]

Re: has montezuma's tomb been found ...?

thanks cubfan...

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Re: has montezuma's tomb been found ...?

HMMMM ---------5th-------------

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[bob123]

Re: has montezuma's tomb been found ...?

Hello Bob.... interesting.
You are new?
Janiece

I'm sorry everyone havent checked my comments yet and to answer your questions:yes i am new, no im not blindsnowman, no i did not find the ruins of a church im sorry that was a quote I was just wondering if these contradict each other.

 

[Oroblanco]

Re: has montezuma's tomb been found ...?

WELCOME TO TREASURENET BOB123!

 

[Old Dog]

Re: has montezuma's tomb been found ...?

POSTSCRIPT: Here is a topo showing the location of Montezuma Head, the site associated with the legend of Montezuma being entombed in Arizona:
http://www.topozone.com/map.asp?lat=32.11479&lon=-112.70598&datum=nad83&u=4&layer=DRG&size=l&s=500

all good pionts of research . but have you considered the fact IMHO there was 3 montezuma's . and you are very right but the treasure of montezuma was said to be sent by montezuma ...i asume he did not take it him self ..the acount stated montezuma's son and 3000 of his men took the treasure northward and when montezuma was in tombed is not known .. he could have been put in the tomb days or weeks or even longer after his death and this would make sence if a mummification had been done wich this is a king , and it would be very unlikely that he was not mummified. in fact i would be totally shocked if he was not ...and if the stone tablets main reason for being made was to piont out montezuma's treasure or tomb with the under standing the chruch in santa ana had some part in this ,,,if not to just store the stone tablets ,it would make little to no logic for the stone tablets to havebeen made in the frist place yet we know for a fact the stone tablets are not fake and were made by a very skilled map maker ...in a spainish scale of messurement of vara ...300 mile distence i spoke of was between santa ana and the supersititionmts ..and you are correct it is a little of 1200 miles from mexico city . yet how far Aztlan was from mexico city is a matter of how far would you go to get away from the black death if it broke out in your home land ...IMHO it has little to do with the distence it self as much as it was to take the king back to his home land , and what better way to hide him then to take him to a place few knew about . its much the same as the legend of AZtlan being in the supersitition mt , this maybe the true reason Aztlan had not been found in the frist place ...

what leed freddy crystall to beleive the chruch stone tablets led to montezuma's treasure ....the chruch in santa ana did , thats where these stone tablets came from ...the same location the treasure trove list of tayopa came from ... and one acount of the massacre fits the discription of the massacre in the superstition mts ...

i totally under stand what you are saying Oro and i agree with the fact this is some distence from mexico city ...yet this distence maybe the only think that makes people beleive it was near mexico city and few would beleive it is were it has been found at this site #1

you can miss led people to beleive its near mexico city . its hard to move the mts them self ...

if there is confussion its not over where the sites are .. its who told who and why they were misled to beleive something that was not true ....


its not proveing montezuma tomb is in the superstitions , its proveing this is Aztlan and chicomoztoc . the indain legends say montezuma was taken back to Aztlan .. see my piont .. his body could have been sent back and the tomb seal at any piont after his death ...and you got to ask your self i the acount said motezuma's son and 3000 of his men . dose this mean montezuma 's 2 son ...i beleive it dose , for two reasons , one the treasure could have vanished and been hiden and they would have had a week head start before cortez enterd the city the secound time .. and if they had a head start and they knew this land , they could have taken the treasure to the supersitition mt and then misled cortez away from the treasure tomb . and then went back and got montezuma's remains ... this would tell me there were some people still loyal to montezuma....

in fact when you atke a good look at the details you have pionted out they make my over all case stronger ...lol

if i am right the 3000 men marched almost the whole way none stop to the superstition mts stright northward threw the vally.....they knew this route north because their home land was north ... it would make almost no common logic for Aztlan to be say 500 miles north of mexico city . this would be very unlikely ... if sickness was why they moved south it would be far more logical that it would a 1000 miles or more northward . and the supersitition mt are in fact as you have just pionted out ...i think i owe you a steak ...lol

in fact i would be very shocked if this ways not Aztlan , it would make good common sence if it was ...the idea 7 tribes would move south and go a few hunderd miles and then set up a new home land is foolish , i beleive it would have had to be at lest 25-30 days away and i find my self agreeing with CJ the secound time this week . i must be going crazy ,,,lol

you would have to take into acount these men were most likely the royal guard and would have been in good condition to make this trip with weight ...most likely not takeing common gold ore . it would have been the kings treasure .only .. the most valueable items ....i think this is part of the reason cortez was so pist it was gone ...

no ,IMHO Aztlan has been found and we should take a better look at what has been found at these sites ,, because they do in fact logically fit the legends better then any other site before them ...

the real question is are we going to talk about it the rest of our lifes or are we going to prove it ....if you look at the facts , one must prove the other , aztlan , chicomoztoc and motezuma's tomb has to all be in the same area .. i have pionted out a logical area that fits all 3 site , i dont think anyone else has ever done that !

many have thoeries to where Aztlan was . but it must fit all 3 of these legends to be the real Aztlan , i think cj made a good controlled guess ...and i do agree , 30-35 days away would be about right

they hide the treasure and then sent 3 groups of men west north and east to mis led cortez on a wild goose chase ,and then went back for montezuma after cortez was gone ...it worked like it was planed to happend this way ...

we dont know how the santa ana chruch found out about these sites , and tayopa ... there are some details still missing ... was the guadalupe de santa ana chruch the sister chruch of the one in the supersitition mt... if i am right and the massacre acount of tayopa is the same massacre in the supersitition mt then there was a chruch in the superstition mts . and the remains of what could be a chruch i found , could in fact be the same chruch , in the same area as all 3 sites ...this would make 6 or 7 legends that all fit this area ....and these 3 sites ....

Yea about them traveling northward i heard someone else claim that they were sarrying idols and had some battle with the spanish and ended up in modern day colorado the guy who told me didnt have all the facts but its still a thought to put into consideration.
-bob

HI Blowman,
It has been a short while,
Thanks for coming back so quickly.
Nice to have you.

Btw...
I made $100 on a bet. knew you couldn't stay away.

 

[Gossamer]

Re: has montezuma's tomb been found ...?

yes.. BB, I'm delighted to see your posts!!!
I hope this all finds you well and ready to rumble..
Janiece

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Re: has montezuma's tomb been found ...?

Gossy luv: hi, welcome back & a discrete ? smooch. What ever happend to the experiment?

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[cactusjumper]

Re: has montezuma's tomb been found ...?

bb,

Welcome back.

all good pionts of research . but have you considered the fact IMHO there was 3 montezuma's ."

Can you tell us a little of the history of the third Montezuma?

Thanks,

Joe