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  1. #321

    Aug 2004
    1,341
    7 times

    Re: Aztec, Cibola, Zuni, Estevan Quivara and related gold-like conjecture

    Dear group;
    Oh my! Please don't tell me there are people who still believe in the old Cibola legends!

    First, to clear some up misinformation. Quivira was not the name of a person, it was one of the names of the Hidden City of Gold. The one alledged eyewitness to have seen the city was an escaped salve named Estaban Dorantes, but more on this later.

    First, the legend of Cibola and Quivira is not an American one, rather it originated in Spain around 1150AD, after the Moors invaded and settled Merida, Spain. The original legend stated that the seven Christian bishops of Merida fled from the city and not wanting the religious artifacts of Merida to fall into Mulim hands, took the treasures of Merida and placed them aboard a ship. From port they headed for a unknown land and established a new city, using the collected treasures of Merida.

    Some early writers named this lost city Quivira while others used Cibola. Within a couple of generations, the fabulous city expanded into two separate cities, with one being named Quivira and other Cibola. And why not? When telling a legend bigger is always better, right? And so, by the time that Christopher Columbus discovereded the New World, these two cities grew into SEVEN cities, one city for each of the escaped bishops! As always, bigger is better and so the writers decided not to spare their imaginations.

    And so, collectively the seven cities became known as Cibola and the land where Cibola was situated became known as Quivira. Before Coronado had left the dock in Cadiz, the legend of Cibola had grown to such proporitions that writers were placing names on the various Kings and Queens of Quivira and even naming the avenues of the cities of Cibola!

    And now, to continue with our legend. Esteban Dorantes, also known as Estevanico the Berber, was a Moorish slave captured by the Portuguese and sold to a Spanish gentleman named Andres Dorantes de Carranza. Estevanico travelled with Don Andres to Cuba and Hispanola, and then was part of Panfilo de Naravez' expedition to Florida.

    The expedition turned out to be a series of disasters in which only five members of the original exploration party of 450 who survived, with Estevanico being one of those and the other four being Alvar Nunyez Cabeza de Vaca, Juan Ortiz, Andres Dorantes de Carranza and Alonso del Castillo Maldonado. Of these five, Juan Ortiz was captured around Tampa Bay, Florida by natives and lived as a slave for some twelve years before being rescued by members of the expedition of Hernando de Soto.

    Having survived this harrowing expedition, and after having traveled by foot along the entire Gulf coast and into West Texas, New Mexico and Arizona, after eight long years of hardship the group of four survivors finally met up with a Spanish slave hunting party in Sinaloa, Mexico.

    Estevanico then accompanied the Franscian friar Marcos de Niza to search for the Seven Lost Cities of Cibola in 1539 as part of Coronados' now famous expedition into what's now modern day Kansas. Marcos de Niza then reported that Estevanico had been killed by Zuni indians that he had seen " a city in the distance as large as Mexico City, with street and buildings of solid gold and the Pacific ocean off to the West."

    Upon hearing this news, Coronado immediately dispatched small expeditionary forces into what is now New Mexico to the Zuni Pueblo, and upon reaching it, Coronado was furious with Marcos de Niza, for the village was poverty stricken in the extreme and bore no resemblance to the city which Marcos de Niza had described previously.

    Coronado then continued west in his quest for Cibola, in the land of Quivira, eventually reaching the Kansas river in 1541, near the site of present day Dodge City. He then returned to central Mexico in 1542. Coronados' expedition forced him into bankrucy and retired to live out the remainder of his life in Mexico City where he died on 22 September 1554. And this is the tale of Cibola, Quivira and the Seven Fabulous Cities of Wealth.
    Your friend;
    LAMAR


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  3. #322
    mx
    Nov 2004
    Alamos,Sonora,Mexico
    10,188
    814 times

    Re: Aztec, Cibola, Zuni, Estevan Quivara and related gold-like conjecture

    good afternoon Lamar: Except for one thing, it exists. It is in the Barranca de ConiJaqui in the border between Sinaloa and Durango.

    There are 7 pueblos there that adorned their walls with iron pyrites, fools gold. They also have a tremendous no of artifacts depicting buffalo

    The zone is only accessible by foot, mule, or aircraft.. It is being considered as a UN heritage site.

    Apparently our friend Estaban only saw it from a distance, and so confused the iron pyrites with Gold.

    Of course the Crown sread the word of the golden cities to encourage private exploration parties at no ccst to the crown.

    Don Jose de La Mancha
    "I exist to live, not live to exist"

  4. #323
    us
    May 2007
    Western Colorado
    5,871
    32 times

    Re: Aztec, Cibola, Zuni, Estevan Quivara and related gold-like conjecture

    lamar,
    Just out of curiosity...
    if you have no belief in treasure legends or the ideas that lead to old treasures
    or even new ones (for that matter)
    are you so void of an actual life that you have to try to come on here and dispel anything that might be of any value to any of us?
    If so you have my deepest pity,
    and a confirmation that what ever you seem to be attempting ...just isn't working.

    Go out and find something.
    if not treasure, a girl,... anything of value to you.

    Maybe the word treasure will actually acquire some meaning to you.
    all of your attempts to chase the serious hunters away are failing and becoming monotonous.
    "Everybody dies"
    "But not everybody lives."

  5. #324

    Aug 2004
    1,341
    7 times

    Re: Aztec, Cibola, Zuni, Estevan Quivara and related gold-like conjecture

    Dear Old Dog;
    Strange that I do not recall asking you for advice, therefore why do you feel compelled to offer some to me? Also, I have no need for your pity so perhaps you should offer it up to someone who could use it? Obviously, you are a person who has accquired few good manners with the passing of time, therefore I would like to ask you to please stop responding to my posts in a negative manner.

    Leave and sin no more!
    LAMAR

  6. #325
    Charter Member
    us
    Apr 2007
    God's lap
    X-terra 70 ACE 250
    11,352
    8 times

    Re: Aztec, Cibola, Zuni, Estevan Quivara and related gold-like conjecture


  7. #326
    pw
    Apr 2003
    New Mexico
    BS
    2,487
    598 times

    Re: Aztec, Cibola, Zuni, Estevan Quivara and related gold-like conjecture

    Quote Originally Posted by lamar
    ....
    And so, collectively the seven cities became known as Cibola and the land where Cibola was situated became known as Quivira. Before Coronado had left the dock in Cadiz, the legend of Cibola had grown to such proporitions that writers were placing names on the various Kings and Queens of Quivira and even naming the avenues of the cities of Cibola! ...

    These legends and more, particularly the Mexicas' Chicomoztoc ("Place of the Seven Caves"), essentially melded into an idea that great riches were to be found in North America. At least that's how we read it today. Any proprietory information held close to the vest by some of the players of the day (paricularly Marcos), if it existed, has escaped our understanding. By the way, somewhere in my library I have information that traces our words 'cibola' and quivera' not to Native American or Spanish language of the day, but to the Phoenicians and Jews (the Khybers) from ancient India.....

    (Following his experiences with Cabeza de Vaca) ...Estevanico then accompanied the Franscian friar Marcos de Niza to search for the Seven Lost Cities of Cibola in 1539 as part of Coronados' now famous expedition into what's now modern day Kansas. Marcos de Niza then reported that Estevanico had been killed by Zuni indians that he had seen " a city in the distance as large as Mexico City, with street and buildings of solid gold and the Pacific ocean off to the West."

    Upon hearing this news, Coronado immediately dispatched small expeditionary forces into what is now New Mexico to the Zuni Pueblo, and upon reaching it, Coronado was furious with Marcos de Niza, for the village was poverty stricken in the extreme and bore no resemblance to the city which Marcos de Niza had described previously...

    You've got your facts wrong. Estevanico led Marcos, and Marcos alone, in 1539 on an expedition beyond the Northern Frontier. The well-known results of that trip were documented by Marcos. Mendoza then sent Coronado north in 1540 with Marcos as his guide (Estevanico allegedly killed in 1539). Of course, Coronado sent Marcos back to Mexico in shame because he failed to lead Coronado to 'Cibola', at least the 'Cibola' that Coronado expected to find. Coronado then roams all the way to Kansas and returns empty-handed to Mexico in 1542. Marcos fades away into obscurity.

    Interestingly, there is a great deal of 'circumstantial evidence' that Estevanico indeed led Marcos to the riches of legend in 1539, located in a cavern in a mountain known traditionally in New Mexico as 'Santo Nino de Atocha'. Said cavern/mountain said to be connected to the Mexica, and sought for years by such notables as Mel Fisher (until his organization determined that their search area was 'off-limits'). The speculation is that the Franciscan Marcos merely turned north at the Rio San Francisco in 1540 instead of following the Rio Gila easterly, thus effectively leading Coronado astray to protect the true location of 'Cibola'. Marcos' motivation and associations are unclear, although it is known that he was a native 'sympathizer' as a result of his earlier experiences in Peru. Hopefully, some day we'll know the truth to all this. IMO, the 'Cibola' legends are somehow based in truth and has not yet been revealed.

    "The gods were smiling when you were born. Now they're laughing."​ Chinese fortune cookie

  8. #327

    Feb 2005
    36
    1 times

    Re: Aztec, Cibola, Zuni, Estevan Quivara and related gold-like conjecture

    what is the truth worth. isnt it the treasure in itself? how can this truth set one free? Esteban had a deal. He did his part and was skinned alive for it. Now a ghost seeks a writer?

  9. #328
    mx
    Nov 2004
    Alamos,Sonora,Mexico
    10,188
    814 times

    Re: Aztec, Cibola, Zuni, Estevan Quivara and related gold-like conjecture

    Hi, it is still in Mexico in the valley called 'Conijaque' he he he

    Don Jose de La Mancha
    "I exist to live, not live to exist"

  10. #329
    mx
    Nov 2004
    Alamos,Sonora,Mexico
    10,188
    814 times

    Re: Aztec, Cibola, Zuni, Estevan Quivara and related gold-like conjecture

    Regardless, the actual 7 ciudades de Cibola lie on the Sinaloa / Durango border in the valley of the Conajaque. they are being considered for UN heritage site classification.

    Don Jose de La Mancha
    "I exist to live, not live to exist"

  11. #330
    pw
    Apr 2003
    New Mexico
    BS
    2,487
    598 times

    Re: Aztec, Cibola, Zuni, Estevan Quivara and related gold-like conjecture

    Quote Originally Posted by FEMF
    [Lamar blah-blah] ... Marcos De Nisa was sent back to Mexico City because Coronados men wanted to Kill Marcos for his lies, Coronado faced an Inquisition and Marcos De Nisa became the head of the Franscian order in Mexico.
    FEMF
    An explanation for his abberant behavior is that Marcos, who witnessed the Spanish 'techniques' in Peru, purposely misled the fool Coronado away from the true prize in 1540 to keep what he found in 1539 out of Spanish hands. A left turn at the Rio San Francisco did the trick.
    "The gods were smiling when you were born. Now they're laughing."​ Chinese fortune cookie

  12. #331
    Charter Member

    Dec 2005
    Arizona
    5,272
    501 times

    Re: Aztec, Cibola, Zuni, Estevan Quivara and related gold-like conjecture

    Dear Lamar,

    [Estevanico then accompanied the Franscian friar Marcos de Niza to search for the Seven Lost Cities of Cibola in 1539 as part of Coronados' now famous expedition into what's now modern day Kansas. Marcos de Niza then reported that Estevanico had been killed by Zuni Indians that he had seen " a city in the distance as large as Mexico City, with street and buildings of solid gold and the Pacific ocean off to the West."]

    No contemporaneous reports confirm the statement in bold, including Father Marcos de Niza's own written report. There is some debate, even today, as to the priests statements as well as his honesty. You can find researchers coming down on both sides of the issue.

    Take care,

    Joe

  13. #332
    mx
    Nov 2004
    Alamos,Sonora,Mexico
    10,188
    814 times

    Re: Aztec, Cibola, Zuni, Estevan Quivara and related gold-like conjecture

    good morning peeps: As mentioned the seven ciudades of Cibola are in the Valley of the Conijaqui. There are seven villages. They mixed iron pyrites - fools gold - with the stucco that they painted their houses with. From a distance it would appear to be of gold.

    They have many temples lavishly adorned with drawings and ceramics of Buffalo, and had an unusual custom of burying 'intact' , pottery in every sq meter of their ball courts. Most cultures broke the pottery to release it's soul before discarding or burying it.

    I believe that Life magazine sent a group there to photograph it just prior ot WW-2, which stopped further investigation. Interest had turned to other things after the war, so they never returned that I know of.

    It is now being considered as a UN Heritage site.

    I will have to check to see if there is an access road now. In the past you could only get there by Foot, Mule, or Aircraft.

    Sorry Lamar, it exists, and was used by the Crown to push exploration in the northen provinces with no expense to the Crown.

    Don Jose de La Mancha
    "I exist to live, not live to exist"

  14. #333
    us
    Oct 2007
    Pascagoula Ms.
    minelab exp.
    2,127
    22 times

    Re: Aztec, Cibola, Zuni, Estevan Quivara and related gold-like conjecture

    Great post!I can add a few things .In this Spanish 1529 map they show Azteca Recifes in the Gulf of Mexico on the coast of NW Florida..They were building Mounds in this area from around 900 A.D. there are still many Mounds in the area ...Where did they come from ? Where did they move later?Who knows--------- What kind of Indians were they really?The Spanish called them Azteca in 1529 that works for me Is there gold in this area ?No - Did the Indians bring gold to the area to trade with large ships in the 1500s ?Hmmmmmmm..... Did a Hurricane in 1559 destroy this area ?Yes indeed-- Most of the info & names match the Texas / Mexico area....But most of the maps & names are giving to areas at a much later date....Has anyone found the word aztec or land of the aztec on maps from the 16th century?
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