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  1. #31

    Mar 2004
    New Mexico
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    7 times

    Re: Aztec, Cibola, Zuni, Estevan Quivara and related gold-like conjecture

    Diety comparison searching continues
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  2. #32

    Mar 2004
    New Mexico
    616
    7 times

    Re: Aztec, Cibola, Zuni, Estevan Quivara and related gold-like conjecture

    Quote Originally Posted by Oroblanco
    Thank you for posting the pix amigo, that last one is one I need to research for an un-related subject. What about crops? Did the Aztecs raise similar crops to those of the Mound-builders? (ie corn/maize, cotton, tobacco, squash/pumpkins, potatoes, etc?) It stands to reason that a group of emigrants or immigrants would have brought seed stock from their original homes to their new homeland right? Or at least the most useful, I would think, unless they were strictly hunter-gatherer culture which seems unlikely in either the Aztecs or Mound-builders. Thank you in advance,
    Oroblanco
    Thanks for the suggestion. For the moment I'm still just plodding along trying to find out whether the thing's possible at all, and if so, whether it has a high enough level of probability to pursue it further. Shared artifact similarities and religious icons are just a thread hanging there to be pulled until I have enough to give it weight, one way or another. I'm thinking my next step, if what I find here justifies going further, will be to try to find evidence a migration happened at all from the mound-builders to Mexico.

    The Gila Cliff Dwellings site's been nagging at me. I've always believed it was some sort of supply-way-station for someone migrating, but always thought it was the folk living immediately northward. Everything about that site's always been a head-scratcher. Too much corn found stored there to have been grown there, still scads of corn stored when the site was abandoned, and it wasn't occupied long enough to make any sense.

    I'd surmised whomever ran the place did so as a supply depot for travelers, and then followed everyone else where they'd gone, leaving the bins and jugs full in case stragglers came in later and needed food supplies.

    If that's the case there might be other such sites that have been found further north and east over the centuries I haven't ever heard about. I used to look into some cave dwellings up in the Jemez and always wondered why there was such a tendency to find unused supplies of corn a thousand years old, but figured the folk who owned it must have gotten themselves killed. Not to suggest either of these have anything to do with midwesterners, but possibly they do support the supply-depot theory of people migrating from somewhere to somewhere else and planning ahead for making sure the trekkers didn't starve.

    Anyway, I haven't completed the religious and artifacts side enough to start looking at all that.

    Gracias,
    J

    Edit: An archeologist acquaintance in the mid-1990s got me thinking about the way-station thing. They were building a new road up on the Navajo Res and had to call in the pros when they came across a site that turned out to have been a traveller way-station/supply depot rest-stop along the road to Chaco. Had everything including a few grave-sites for those who arrived at a different destination than they'd figured on. That came at a time when I'd already been puzzling over what the Gila Cliff Dwellings meant for a few years, and eventually I sort of put the two together in my thinking as being of similar intent.

    During that same time period I'd long pondered what happened to the southwestern folk and concluded they probably migrated somewhere. I figured they were eventually the Aztec, but the archeologists convinced me it didn't make a good fit. But I did a lot of thinking, anyway, about how a sophisticated culture with a lot of population would have to go about planning and pulling off a mass migration without losing half of them or more in route, giving them a decade or so to arrange everything. One conclusion I eventually reached was that they'd do it in relatively small groups using different routes so's not to over-burden the resources along the way.

    Lots of fairly-strung-out-and-flimsy assumptions in that, but it's what I see as most probable, even if it's midwesterners doing the migrating. I'll be looking for evidence that somewhere in the midwest a substantial group of localities were abandoned during a relatively short-timespan in the 1100-1150 frame.

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  3. #33
    Charter Member

    Dec 2005
    Arizona
    5,756
    989 times

    Re: Aztec, Cibola, Zuni, Estevan Quivara and related gold-like conjecture

    Highmountain and Roy,

    It's really good to see some informed discussion going on concerning this topic. While I am nowhere even near being a student of the subject, I have been a fan for a number of years.

    The search for Aztlan may very well lead back into southeastern Arizona. Originally it was thought that Aztlan was in Florida. This was a pretty good bet, because of the people being connected to the White Heron, but Florida is not necessarily the only possibility.

    It may be that you only need to look at the area near the headwaters of the Gila River. The inland sea that existed there was 120 square miles in size. Should the Aztecs originally have lived on an island in this sea, the population may have become to large to continue living there, thus creating the need to migrate. You would need to adjust the actual time of the Aztec migrations to a much, much earlier date, but who's to say how old the legends really are. The Gila was both a trade and migration route. Once Highmountain starts considering the Gila River area as having an Aztec connection, it becomes a fertile field of investigation....IMHO.

    It is likely that corn originally came to the area by traders.

    It seems to me, the Mississippian Mound Culture is a stretch, but possible. Perhaps the key to that would be historical linguistics, as well as the composition and methodology of their pottery.

    I am out of my knowledge comfort zone here, but much like my suggestion of Caral being the birthplace for the concept of pyramid building, I'm only offering up these possibilities to foster debate from those who may have better answers.

    Take care,

    Joe Ribaudo

  4. #34
    us
    Feb 2006
    New Hampshire - USA
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    Re: Aztec, Cibola, Zuni, Estevan Quivara and related gold-like conjecture

    Don't assume lack input as lack of interest. I'm quite interested in the subject, it's just that other than guesses, thoughts and opinions, I have nothing to add as I've never studied the topic of the Aztecs other than in a cursory manner.

    I'd rather observe and learn a little rather than stick my nose in with non-constructive feedback.

    Your "strange rock formation" is certainly something that would be interesting to see close up!

    Oh - and correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm not sure how helpful BB has been in this thread as I haven't seen his name pop up at all.
    "There is no getting away from a treasure that once fastens upon your mind" - Joseph Conrad (Nostromo)

  5. #35

    Mar 2004
    New Mexico
    616
    7 times

    Re: Aztec, Cibola, Zuni, Estevan Quivara and related gold-like conjecture

    Quote Originally Posted by Old Dog
    One thing I find hard to understand,
    is why won't historians, at least consider the fact that that the Spanish had a set of codexes,
    that brought them up into this country.
    every place my partner and I have been around here, where ancient or traces of an Aztec type culture is concerned, the traces of this previous culture are all but destroyed.
    Once in a while we find places where it hasn't and is still intact, but all of the signs are destroyed or are modified to the use of the Spanish.
    Sometimes it boggles the mind what was covered up.

    Our suspicion is that it was done because the Spanish thought it was pagan and needed to be done away with.

    We are at the end of our knowledge in this area an are reaching at this point.
    All ideas are welcome.

    Thom
    Part of the codice reluctance might well be the fact so many new ones are turning up on the web these days and being represented as authentic, pushing what's obviously one or another agenda or attempting to retroactively impose concepts and ideas [as well as particular types of wisdom] on our ancestors that seem anachronistic for those times but fit a bit too nicely with these.

    Looking at the images and reading the supposed texts a person might be led to wonder whether there's not an ancestral disinformation league at work trying to assure a broad-brush repudiation of codices by genre. An awfully lot of what's being put out there almost has to be deliberately absurd. It's hard to imagine anyone putting it forward expecting it to be accepted, and it discredits what's real, carrying it along with it to the skeptics and debunkers heaven on the web.

    Similar to what's happening with the attempts for new looks Nicola Tesla concepts and inventions regarding energy, and with the various UFO related sites, reports and discussions. Taking the 'damning by faint praise' method of ad hominen attack to an extreme anyone interested in serious inquiry might be driven away by the prospect of surrounding himself with lunatics.

    At least that's how it seems to me.


  6. #36

    Mar 2004
    New Mexico
    616
    7 times

    Re: Aztec, Cibola, Zuni, Estevan Quivara and related gold-like conjecture

    The corn-caches as a set of way-depots is quite an interesting idea, with several possible explanations as to why it originated. One idea is that they were like the stage stations of the 'old west' - with the travelers being not just traders but also religious pilgrims, making a pilgrimage. If such a network existed, it would have been extremely useful for a migrating mass of people, assuming they had knowledge of its existence, which again referring to the religious pilgrimage idea, might have been common knowledge. Just one possible explanation as to why such a network might have come into being in the first place - it would also have been very useful for re-supplying military forces of warriors, rushing to defend various outlying settlements against raiders etc and this might be another explanation of why such a network was created in the first place. However if the purpose was originally (and/or principally) for feeding war parties on the march, it seems logical that there ought to be caches of weaponry found along with corn - arrows for instance, which are needed in large numbers for combat.
    Oroblanco


    One idea is that they were like the stage stations of the 'old west' - with the travelers being not just traders but also religious pilgrims, making a pilgrimage.

    This is definitely something the Anasazi did. I think the concept's accepted as a given these days among the pointee-headed looters with PHDs.

    If such a network existed, it would have been extremely useful for a migrating mass of people, assuming they had knowledge of its existence, which again referring to the religious pilgrimage idea, might have been common knowledge.

    Probably true. For the moment I'm postulating something on a grander, more carefully planned scale specifically created for the purpose of serving migrating folk. Not to suggest it has any basis in fact, only that I'm postulating it.

    it seems logical that there ought to be caches of weaponry found along with corn - arrows for instance, which are needed in large numbers for combat.

    Good point, though while I'm personally aware of a lot of raiding campsites producing raw materials for making weaponry, I've never come across one that produced full-fledged weaponry. A lot do have plenty of flint chips around, and I've watched good knappers turn out prize-winning heads in 15 minutes or so. I lean to thinking those ancient knappers turned out their surplus weaponry when they anticipated it might be needed rather than carrying it around long.

    I've got a 12,000 year old axe head sitting on the mantle [guy was SOME kind of good knapper] that was sharpened repeatedly until he came to a platform that left him a lousy edge. The place I found it suggested he just tossed it away in disgust, probably figuring he'd turn out another soon as he finished whatever he was doing.

    I'll get to the rest of you're post as time allows.

    J

  7. #37

    Mar 2004
    New Mexico
    616
    7 times

    Re: Aztec, Cibola, Zuni, Estevan Quivara and related gold-like conjecture

    I respectfully disagree that the Aztecs must necessarily have been a large group on their arrival in central Mexico, the fact that they were rather weak in comparison with the other tribes already present there at least suggests that their numbers were not great - or at least not as great as the tribes already there. So I am asking, how large a group would you propose the Aztecs were on arrival? If we are saying they were many tens of thousands, that is quite a difference from saying they were 5000 or 1000. A group of 5000 people might have less than 1000 able-bodied fighting men, which would still be a "large" group, but likely quite weak in comparison to tribes they found already in central Mexico. As a line of reasoning, if we take the opposite end of our projections and say that the Aztecs numbered over 100,000, it seems likely that they would have been strong enough to overpower one after another of the other tribes already living in central Mexico upon their arrival, rather like the tribes of Israel conquering the Canaanite tribes and cities as they progressed into Canaan. Does that sound logical? My reason for asking what figure we are to use when we estimate the Aztec migration has direct bearing on locating their homeland and route(s) taken, for a group of 50,000 people require considerably more supplies (food for example) than a group of say 2000. A group of 50,000 people need ten times as much food and water as a group of 5000, for instance.

    I'm generally starting with a big number figuring I'll work my way down to whatever level eventually seems to hold water, assuming one does. I don't think there's sufficient evidence supporting the notion the Aztec remained long as a secondary force to cause me to go there. I don't doubt they were for a while and it remained long in their memories. But my initial guess is that by the time all the stragglers arrived they were sufficiently strong to make themselves enough a threat so's nobody was ranking them second-rate as a Mexico power.

    Again, that's just me postulating. Someone else may be able to convince me otherwise, or some evidence might turn up to do it. I'm fairly easy that way.

    Edit: I'm also sneaking around toying with the idea the arrival of midwestern migrating folk were responsible for something that might have been a major religious change among the southwesterners and possibly the cause for the 1100-1150 bloody civil war among them. Built myself a sand-castle or ice-castle of a premise that migrating midwesterners shook things up sufficiently to rattle the southwesterner cultures into giving up their lifestyle and the already declining big houses to join them on their trek south. But I'm not admitting to anyone such fantasies are being entertained in my old gray head.


  8. #38

    Mar 2004
    New Mexico
    616
    7 times

    Re: Aztec, Cibola, Zuni, Estevan Quivara and related gold-like conjecture

    Quote Originally Posted by Cubfan64
    Don't assume lack input as lack of interest. I'm quite interested in the subject, it's just that other than guesses, thoughts and opinions, I have nothing to add as I've never studied the topic of the Aztecs other than in a cursory manner.

    I'd rather observe and learn a little rather than stick my nose in with non-constructive feedback.

    Your "strange rock formation" is certainly something that would be interesting to see close up!

    Oh - and correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm not sure how helpful BB has been in this thread as I haven't seen his name pop up at all.
    Thanks for the post. I'd have sworn BB was here, but it must have been the other thread is all I can figure.
    J

  9. #39
    mx
    Nov 2004
    Alamos,Sonora,Mexico
    11,185
    2323 times

    Re: Aztec, Cibola, Zuni, Estevan Quivara and related gold-like conjecture

    HI HIGH: You posted --->

    We seem to be the only ones interested in the subject.
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    Definitely not true, but with my limited experience on the subject, I am afraid that I could add nothing of importance at this moment. I already have formulated ideas and probabilities, but they need to mature a bit first.

    Don Jose de La Mancha



    "I exist to live, not live to exist"

  10. #40
    Charter Member
    us
    Apr 2007
    God's lap
    X-terra 70 ACE 250
    11,353
    16 times

    Re: Aztec, Cibola, Zuni, Estevan Quivara and related gold-like conjecture

    I have to agree wholeheartedly there....more of us are interested, even fascinated.....yet I feel I am not educated enough at this point to join in the discussion....I do, however, read and learn. I am enjoying this thread a great deal! Thanks!

  11. #41

    Mar 2004
    New Mexico
    616
    7 times

    Re: Aztec, Cibola, Zuni, Estevan Quivara and related gold-like conjecture

    Quote Originally Posted by Cynangyl
    I have to agree wholeheartedly there....more of us are interested, even fascinated.....yet I feel I am not educated enough at this point to join in the discussion....I do, however, read and learn. I am enjoying this thread a great deal! Thanks!

    HI HIGH: You posted --->

    We seem to be the only ones interested in the subject.
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    Definitely not true, but with my limited experience on the subject, I am afraid that I could add nothing of importance at this moment. I already have formulated ideas and probabilities, but they need to mature a bit first.

    Don Jose de La Mancha
    Thanks to both of you. I'd honestly feel better about things if you were hanging it out over the edge with speculations and ideas same as I'm doing, but I can understand why you'd be reluctant to.

    Somebody, Oroblanco, I think, mentioned corn and it's been slipping my mind to answer though I've had it earmarked.

    I think our modern concepts of corn production methods might be one of the ways we've demonstrated how ghastly closed-minded we are because of our long European traditions of how it should be done.

    Along the road east from Chichen Itza there are a series of lava flows keeping the jungle back. Over time soil's accumulated in the pockets all over them as will happen. But today the descendants of those ancient Mayans are farming corn in those pockets and getting what appears to be fairly good production from the effort.

    A pocket of soil a couple of inches deep and three feet in diameter might produce four corn-stalks and more than a dozen ears of corn. Interestingly, they appear to put off harvesting it until it's needed, just leaving it on the stalks to cure in the weather.

    If we moderns were doing things that way every yard flowerbed would be producing enough corn to cut down on the grocery bills, while keeping us from entirely losing seed stock that germinates [as has pretty well already happened] to be replaced by seed-corn hybridized to prohibit germination so's the farmers will have to buy seed corn every year.

    The ancients everywhere were probably pretty good at maximizing food production by a lot of means we'd never consider today.

  12. #42
    Charter Member

    Dec 2005
    Arizona
    5,756
    989 times

    Re: Aztec, Cibola, Zuni, Estevan Quivara and related gold-like conjecture

    Gentlemen,

    "But the upper-Gila has more secrets than a monkey on a 50 foot rope has tricks."

    Not sure how many secrets the upper-Gila holds, but there is much that is known.

    "The country on all sides of those mountains would have been rich for growing crops and having a good life if the climate of the time was a bit more moist. On the other hand, in the Gallos to the north and northwest there are ruin complexes in areas that frequently don't see the ground from November/December until the spring melt. I've often wondered whether they got their water during those times by melting snow and ice, or whether even those were seasonal dwellings and only appeared to be year-'round to someone poking through their ruins. If they wintered there they were hardier folk than even the toughest a person might expect."

    Perhaps some of the "secrets" you write about, can be explained with an examination of the Cochise culture that lived there. There is no way to compare the climatic conditions between then and now, other than to say they are worlds apart. Annual rainfall for the upper-Gila was around 70" as the glaciers were retreating from the area. The Paleo-Indians moved quickly (relatively speaking) into the mountains of the upper-Gila. They were "hardier folk" and used to cold weather living.

    The corn seed was brought in from Mexico by traders. Zea Mexicana became the crop that allowed the Cochise people to stay in one place for a long period of time. In addition they planted beans, peppers, squash and melons.

    "The Gila Cliff Dwellings site's been nagging at me. I've always believed it was some sort of supply-way-station for someone migrating, but always thought it was the folk living immediately northward. Everything about that site's always been a head-scratcher. Too much corn found stored there to have been grown there, still scads of corn stored when the site was abandoned, and it wasn't occupied long enough to make any sense."

    If the Aztec migrated along the Gila River, they did so in large groups/tribes spread out over hundreds of years, just as the legends state. As they moved towards their final homeland, they would stop and build towns and always a temple. When that group got ready to move on, some of the people stayed behind. They would be expecting, eventually, another tribe of the family of Aztecs, to come over the same trail. If they wanted to survive, they might want to provide surplus stores of corn to keep those larger masses of people moving down the line.

    Each time a tribe would pass through one of these "towns", they would leave behind the sick and the elderly. Those left would add to the town's workforce and they would continue to grow corn, and other crops. Once the last tribe of Aztecs passed through, this supply of workers would eventually die out completely. Thus the towns would also die.

    A good deal of the above is conjecture, but it is based on the archaeological and natural history of the Gila River and the legends of the Aztec Indians, as told to Fathers Duran and Sahagun by the those who survived the conquest.

    Take care,

    Joe Ribaudo






  13. #43

    Mar 2004
    New Mexico
    616
    7 times

    Re: Aztec, Cibola, Zuni, Estevan Quivara and related gold-like conjecture

    Quote Originally Posted by cactusjumper
    Gentlemen,

    "But the upper-Gila has more secrets than a monkey on a 50 foot rope has tricks."

    Not sure how many secrets the upper-Gila holds, but there is much that is known.

    "The country on all sides of those mountains would have been rich for growing crops and having a good life if the climate of the time was a bit more moist. On the other hand, in the Gallos to the north and northwest there are ruin complexes in areas that frequently don't see the ground from November/December until the spring melt. I've often wondered whether they got their water during those times by melting snow and ice, or whether even those were seasonal dwellings and only appeared to be year-'round to someone poking through their ruins. If they wintered there they were hardier folk than even the toughest a person might expect."

    Perhaps some of the "secrets" you write about, can be explained with an examination of the Cochise culture that lived there. There is no way to compare the climatic conditions between then and now, other than to say they are worlds apart. Annual rainfall for the upper-Gila was around 70" as the glaciers were retreating from the area. The Paleo-Indians moved quickly (relatively speaking) into the mountains of the upper-Gila. They were "hardier folk" and used to cold weather living.

    The corn seed was brought in from Mexico by traders. Zea Mexicana became the crop that allowed the Cochise people to stay in one place for a long period of time. In addition they planted beans, peppers, squash and melons.

    "The Gila Cliff Dwellings site's been nagging at me. I've always believed it was some sort of supply-way-station for someone migrating, but always thought it was the folk living immediately northward. Everything about that site's always been a head-scratcher. Too much corn found stored there to have been grown there, still scads of corn stored when the site was abandoned, and it wasn't occupied long enough to make any sense."

    If the Aztec migrated along the Gila River, they did so in large groups/tribes spread out over hundreds of years, just as the legends state. As they moved towards their final homeland, they would stop and build towns and always a temple. When that group got ready to move on, some of the people stayed behind. They would be expecting, eventually, another tribe of the family of Aztecs, to come over the same trail. If they wanted to survive, they might want to provide surplus stores of corn to keep those larger masses of people moving down the line.

    Each time a tribe would pass through one of these "towns", they would leave behind the sick and the elderly. Those left would add to the town's workforce and they would continue to grow corn, and other crops. Once the last tribe of Aztecs passed through, this supply of workers would eventually die out completely. Thus the towns would also die.

    A good deal of the above is conjecture, but it is based on the archaeological and natural history of the Gila River and the legends of the Aztec Indians, as told to Fathers Duran and Sahagun by the those who survived the conquest.

    Take care,

    Joe Ribaudo
    Hi Joe: Thanks for the reply. I'm getting the impression you and I aren't referring to the same place when we use the terms 'upper Gila' and 'headwaters of the Gila'. I'm probably just somewhere upstream of you, which can create some confusion. I'm not familiar with the 'Cochise Culture'.

    Chronology's also sometimes difficult to nail down. I haven't actually carried my thinking back to the paleos. Not to say they aren't somehow involved. Ooparts seem to have a way of showing up when and where they're least expected and can throw monkey-wrenches into discussions of chronology with the ease of a splined shaft slipping through a clutch assembly.

    Sorry for the misunderstanding.

    Jack


  14. #44
    Charter Member

    Dec 2005
    Arizona
    5,756
    989 times

    Re: Aztec, Cibola, Zuni, Estevan Quivara and related gold-like conjecture

    Morning Jack,

    "It may be that you only need to look at the area near the headwaters of the Gila River. The inland sea that existed there was 120 square miles in size. Should the Aztecs originally have lived on an island in this sea, the population may have become to large to continue living there, thus creating the need to migrate. You would need to adjust the actual time of the Aztec migrations to a much, much earlier date, but who's to say how old the legends really are. The Gila was both a trade and migration route. Once Highmountain starts considering the Gila River area as having an Aztec connection, it becomes a fertile field of investigation....IMHO."

    The headwaters of the Gila originate from the Mogollon, Black, and Pinos Altos mountains. Three streams with their feeders gather together in the Gila Basin to form the birthplace of the Gila River. Is that the same place you are talking about?

    Roy,

    Pre-conquest number are always a bit of a crap shoot, but the methodology for estimating populations grows better every year, and with every turn of the spade. Early Aztec population figures, estimated by William T. Sanders, show a population for the Valley of Mexico of 175,000. Late Aztec numbers rise to 920,000.

    The Aztec population underwent a huge surge between 1200 and 1500, partially brought about by the end of 500 years of abnormally dry conditions.

    It's hard to imagine any migrations of groups larger than hundreds, but I suppose it's possible. That would be especially true if they stopped at likely places for decades at a time, as the legends suggest. If the Aztec calender was borrowed when they arrived in Mexico, their own estimates of the time it took to complete the migration may have been off......by a few thousand years.

    Chapter 3 in Michael Smith's book, "The Aztecs" is labeled "People on the Landscape". It deals with "How Many Aztecs?" There is a wide disparity between the studies, but Smith lays out the conclusions in easy to read/understand terminology.

    It does not seem that the Aztecs entered Mexico in a warlike manner. Rather, they seemed to drift in over generations and eventually grew into the dominate culture.

    Gold was not at the top of the value list for the Aztec. They were puzzled by the Spanish lust for the yellow metal.

    More opinions here, so nothing to get excited about.

    Take care,

    Joe



  15. #45

    Mar 2004
    New Mexico
    616
    7 times

    Re: Aztec, Cibola, Zuni, Estevan Quivara and related gold-like conjecture

    Quote Originally Posted by cactusjumper
    Gentlemen,

    "But the upper-Gila has more secrets than a monkey on a 50 foot rope has tricks."

    Not sure how many secrets the upper-Gila holds, but there is much that is known.

    "The country on all sides of those mountains would have been rich for growing crops and having a good life if the climate of the time was a bit more moist. On the other hand, in the Gallos to the north and northwest there are ruin complexes in areas that frequently don't see the ground from November/December until the spring melt. I've often wondered whether they got their water during those times by melting snow and ice, or whether even those were seasonal dwellings and only appeared to be year-'round to someone poking through their ruins. If they wintered there they were hardier folk than even the toughest a person might expect."

    Perhaps some of the "secrets" you write about, can be explained with an examination of the Cochise culture that lived there. There is no way to compare the climatic conditions between then and now, other than to say they are worlds apart. Annual rainfall for the upper-Gila was around 70" as the glaciers were retreating from the area. The Paleo-Indians moved quickly (relatively speaking) into the mountains of the upper-Gila. They were "hardier folk" and used to cold weather living.

    The corn seed was brought in from Mexico by traders. Zea Mexicana became the crop that allowed the Cochise people to stay in one place for a long period of time. In addition they planted beans, peppers, squash and melons.

    "The Gila Cliff Dwellings site's been nagging at me. I've always believed it was some sort of supply-way-station for someone migrating, but always thought it was the folk living immediately northward. Everything about that site's always been a head-scratcher. Too much corn found stored there to have been grown there, still scads of corn stored when the site was abandoned, and it wasn't occupied long enough to make any sense."

    If the Aztec migrated along the Gila River, they did so in large groups/tribes spread out over hundreds of years, just as the legends state. As they moved towards their final homeland, they would stop and build towns and always a temple. When that group got ready to move on, some of the people stayed behind. They would be expecting, eventually, another tribe of the family of Aztecs, to come over the same trail. If they wanted to survive, they might want to provide surplus stores of corn to keep those larger masses of people moving down the line.

    Each time a tribe would pass through one of these "towns", they would leave behind the sick and the elderly. Those left would add to the town's workforce and they would continue to grow corn, and other crops. Once the last tribe of Aztecs passed through, this supply of workers would eventually die out completely. Thus the towns would also die.

    A good deal of the above is conjecture, but it is based on the archaeological and natural history of the Gila River and the legends of the Aztec Indians, as told to Fathers Duran and Sahagun by the those who survived the conquest.

    Take care,

    Joe Ribaudo
    Joe: I'm probably guilty of not having given as much study or weight to the various Aztec traditions reflected in codices as you have and do. In much the same way I don't entirely reject, say, the Zuni tradition that they emerged to the surface of the earth from a hole in the ground, I don't entirely reject it, but I don't rely on it too heavily in establishing the origins of the Zuni.

    Just my particular prejudice.

    Jack

 

 
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