CPTBILs mention of Aztec pictographs in SE Arizona

[cactusjumper]

Re: CPTBIL's mention of Aztec pictographs in SE Arizona

Hi Roy,

The dueling points on the genetic makeup of the Hobbits illustrates, clearly, that it is way too early for conclusions......carved in stone, so to speak. Because the article I posted, basically, said the same thing I have been saying all along........I naturally agree with everything in the article.

In reading "Beyond The Last Village" by Alan Rabinowitz, I was struck by the similarities between the Pygmies of the Adung Wang Valley and our Hobbits. While they are somewhat dissimilar in their overall physical makeup, their histories may have run a parallel course.

As for the viability of the lithic artifacts that are found, most of them can't actually be discounted as being noncultural alterations of natural rock formations. That also holds true for bone tools and projectile points. Obviously, many of these artifacts are man made, but many American archaeological sites remain clouded by questions.

We briefly touched on the possibilities of a historical connection between the Solutrean Culture and Clovis. If we are using Sandia points to make that connection, the technologies are different. I am not sure the Solutrean comparison was made outside of the Sandia Cave site.

At this point, I will be more than happy to follow the conversation wherever you want to take it. I doubt I will be able to keep up, but I expect to have a fine time trying.

Take care,

Joe

 

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[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Re: CPTBIL's mention of Aztec pictographs in SE Arizona

Good evening Beth and the hairy one:

First, this brings to mind my little ones of the Yaqui and the two setlements near Guiracoba.: they were of approx. 1 meter in height

Second, the 9 ft ones near hee.

Third, have you ever received any of my em's Roy?.

Fourth, I have opened a discusions with a few in The Explorers club on the origin of the Aztecs and Atlantis. It is still intriguing to compare the phonetic sound of Azatlan / Atlantis, too close to be a causal thing.

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[cactusjumper]

Re: CPTBIL's mention of Aztec pictographs in SE Arizona

Don Jose,

Nice to see you posting in this neck of the woods again. Speaking of woods, perhaps the phonetic similarity between Atlantis, "Azatlan" and The Tree Of Heaven is also too close to be casual. There are also the Atlantids associated with Aztec archaeology. Going back a little farther you can throw the daughters of Atlas into the phonetic mix.

All kidding aside, it would be very interesting to hear the results of your discussions.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Re: CPTBIL's mention of Aztec pictographs in SE Arizona

Joe, if it is con, do you honestly espect ' me' to post that ? snicker.

AZTLAN = AZLANTIS surrender you, you, hmm, lost Dutchman you .

Don Jose de La Mancha

p.s. "when is the LDM to be held this year?

 

[cactusjumper]

Re: CPTBIL's mention of Aztec pictographs in SE Arizona

Don Jose,

I would expect you would post any speculation, sans facts, pro or con. Generating debate or conversation is, I assume, why you announced what you were doing.

I have never heard of any Pygmy tribes in Mexico. Can you tell us the tribal names of the Guiracoba people? South America is another story. My knowledge of Mexico is minimal, so it's no surprise I have never heard of Mexican Pygmies. I would love to hear more details.

Thanks for your reply,

Joe

 

[Oroblanco]

Re: CPTBIL's mention of Aztec pictographs in SE Arizona

Greetings Joe (and HOLA amigos)!

Cactusjumper wrote

At this point, I will be more than happy to follow the conversation wherever you want to take it. I doubt I will be able to keep up, but I expect to have a fine time trying.

I fear that I have drifted pretty far afield, on the thinnest of connections. You would surely be able to 'keep up' on any level, at least any level I could talk on! To try to swing back onto track, let me go back to the lithics.

Why are Clovis artifacts found where they are, and not to the south? Surely there were mammoths living in the south right? Was there another culture that "blocked" any expansion in that direction? Most historians say that Clovis people were never numerous, and the whole population of the Americas could not have been so high as to lead to conflicts over hunting grounds, right? With the microblade tech cultures, we have a POSSIBLE explanation as to why they did not expand south with their unique technology - (a huge glacier) but surely there was no glacier running across Mexico? Thank you in advance.

Don Jose', Dueno de Real y Minas de Tayopa wrote

Good evening Beth and the hairy one:

First, this brings to mind my little ones of the Yaqui and the two setlements near Guiracoba.: they were of approx. 1 meter in height

Second, the 9 ft ones near hee.

Third, have you ever received any of my em's Roy?.

Fourth, I have opened a discusions with a few in The Explorers club on the origin of the Aztecs and Atlantis. It is still intriguing to compare the phonetic sound of Azatlan / Atlantis, too close to be a causal thing.

HOLA amigo - I would be very interested to hear more of both the little people of the Yaqui and the tall ones. The small people in particular may have a linkage to this part of the country; for instance, the finding of tiny mummies over in Wyoming, one a man who stood 18 inches tall and the other even shorter. (I believe the 18 inch man was called "Pedro" - care to guess why?) The Shoshoni and Arapahoes have legends of little people who lived in the mountains, who used tiny bows and arrows with poisoned tips, and were strong enough to carry a full-grown deer on their backs. Pure legend, or some connection with our 'Hobbits'? If a land bridge would allow mammoths to walk from Asia to America, and the "first" Americans, would it not also suffice for tiny people aka 'Hobbits'? Thank you in advance.

*Side note here, I know that one explanation for Pedro is that he was a victim of microcephaly, which is debatable. His skull was certainly not what I would consider "normal" yet it is not a perfect match with a classic microcephaly case either. If it were a simple case of microcephaly - why the strange mummification and cave burial, hardly consistent with any known Amerindian culture of this part of the country?

Next - yes I received several, and sent at least three replies. I take it that you have not received any of my replies? Let me know and I will see if I have copies to resend, or I will just write a new reply.

Last - I would love to hear how that discussion is progressing, whether pro or con.

Joe - I too was surprised to learn that pygmies have lived in America, at least in ancient times. It is another "taboo" subject among American historians but there is evidence of pygmy peoples, in Tennessee for example. Here is a brief bit
http://www.science-frontiers.com/sf084/sf084a02.htm
NYT article
http://query.nytimes.com/mem/archive-free/pdf?_r=1&res=9A01E0D71E3FE73BBC4C51DFB566838D669FDE

Little people of Wyoming
http://www.legendsofamerica.com/WY-LittlePeople.html
Pedro
http://www.anomalies-unlimited.com/Pedro.html
<Seems gold prospectors tend to run across the strangest things...

EDIT correction, I thought that Pedro stood 18 inches tall, according to this site he stood 14 inches tall. Pretty short even for pygmies. (Too much Sun, wind, rain on the old noggin lately I guess! Can't find my prospectors hat, starting to need it too. Hey a poor excuse is better than none right? heh heh)


I look forward to your replies,
Roy ~ Oroblanco

 

[cactusjumper]

Re: CPTBIL's mention of Aztec pictographs in SE Arizona

Hello Roy,

"Why are Clovis artifacts found where they are, and not to the south? Surely there were mammoths living in the south right? Was there another culture that "blocked" any expansion in that direction? Most historians say that Clovis people were never numerous, and the whole population of the Americas could not have been so high as to lead to conflicts over hunting grounds, right? With the microblade tech cultures, we have a POSSIBLE explanation as to why they did not expand south with their unique technology - (a huge glacier) but surely there was no glacier running across Mexico?"

I doubt anyone can say for sure, but it seems more than possible that the Clovis people came from the south and developed their unique projectile points around the same time that they reached the area of Clovis, NM. As I understand it, their culture did not really last all that long, running out with the mammoth. Perhaps they had good reasons for not returning to the south. Perhaps time just ran out for them.

While the ice may not have covered Mexico during the last ice age, it did leave it arid and inhospitable. That was possibly as large of a barrier as any glacier. I believe the people were pushed into the land of the Olmec.

Have a good night.

Joe

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Re: CPTBIL's mention of Aztec pictographs in SE Arizona

Guten tag mein herrr Joe: There are the remains of two centers on top of two mesas of difficult access. However they had different types of living habits. One constructed their buildings of adobe, the other of rock and adobe.

When I first visited them, some of the ruins were still quite obvious, now?? The roofs were estimated to have been of such height that a normal man could put his elbow on top, and the scattered small stone utensils were scaled to a people of approx. one meter.

I had the people gather whatever they could easily find and bury them in the floor of the best remaining building. The authorities were notified but, like my giant aquatic serpent, no obvious action has ever taken place. The same goes for the giants who are buried in the caves on the cerro de La Campana.

Also when I was livng with the Yaqui, they told me of their legends of the original Yaqui being only one meter tall, and of the
Yo-obwa which preyed upon them..

One Christmas I found a large cardboard box with my name under the tree. I opened it and found another box. I opened that and found another and on until I finally opened the last one. In there I found a complete Human skull with the classic deformed forehead .

There happened to be a husband & Wife team from the University of Michagan here investigating other cultures. I took the skull to them. They were fascinated and took many, many pictures of it. I suggested that they take it back with them, but they said, "no way, they would be barred from returning to Mexico if they removed anything". They then proceeded to tell me that it was from a young female of about 22 years of age, and had, had two children. They also stated there was NO known flat head culture of this type known any where within thousands of miles.

All of this, including the small pyramid in the Quintana Roo jungles next to the Present Belize that my partner and I found, have been reported with no action or even acknowledgement, so I have just stopped bothering.

Names? nope "de don got no stinkin names". --yet.

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Re: CPTBIL's mention of Aztec pictographs in SE Arizona

HI mi sheep luvin buddy and BETH: Nope, I have never received an em from you. I suggest that you send me one to be sure that we have actual communication, we have many things to talk over. Joe will be made privy of them later.

Don Jose de La Mancha

[email protected]

 

[cactusjumper]

Re: CPTBIL's mention of Aztec pictographs in SE Arizona

Don Jose,

Legends of "little people" exist around the world. Some of those legends are based in reality.......perhaps many. The Yaqui have many myths and legends, and the story of the Surem is their version of the "little people". Like all of the other myths and legends from other parts of the world, their story is fascinating.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Re: CPTBIL's mention of Aztec pictographs in SE Arizona

HI Joe, come on down and spend a few days on a mule and I will show you the giants burial caves, the two pueblos of the little people, and, if we are lucky, the giant serpent in the Rio Verde.

This is the same offer that I have given basically to varios groups. They exist, one merely has to travel a bit to see them. I personally no longer go to take photos since they aren't even acknowledged. I haven't been to those areas for many years now, it is sufficient for me to simply know that they exist.

Ask the Yaquis up in Tucson or Phoenix about Yo-obwa.

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[cactusjumper]

Re: CPTBIL's mention of Aztec pictographs in SE Arizona

Roy,

"Why are Clovis artifacts found where they are, and not to the south? Surely there were mammoths living in the south right? Was there another culture that "blocked" any expansion in that direction? Most historians say that Clovis people were never numerous, and the whole population of the Americas could not have been so high as to lead to conflicts over hunting grounds, right? With the microblade tech cultures, we have a POSSIBLE explanation as to why they did not expand south with their unique technology - (a huge glacier) but surely there was no glacier running across Mexico? Thank you in advance."

The Mastodon were present throughout South America, so nothing prevented their migration south.......at some period in time. As many sites in South America are older than Clovis and as a casual fan of this subject, my unqualified opinion would be that that the people pushed the Mastodon south before them until they could go no farther. At that point they turned north along the east coast of South America and eventually migrated back into North America.

I believe, factually, Mastodon were here long before humans. I think that will hold true until we find evidence of human occupation prior to 40,000 years ago. That seems to be well within the realm of possibility as dates keep being pushed farther and farther back, seemingly with each turn of the spade.

At some point, these people became "Clovis" and invented their own unique lithics. No doubt I am missing a great deal in this uneducated guessing game.

Take care,

Joe

 

[cactusjumper]

Re: CPTBIL's mention of Aztec pictographs in SE Arizona

Roy,

From what I have read, the greatest numbers of people tended to stay close to the shore line. I believe this held true, pretty much, worldwide and remains true still. I would expect that many animals also stayed close to the oceans, especially during the ice ages. Any that went inland, ended up in ice free zones.

During the Ice Ages, much of the moisture was used up making the glaciers. When that happened the ocean levels dropped substantially, exposing the continental shelves. That created a nice, fairly open, highway along both coasts. Pushing into the interior might not have seemed that attractive and indeed, that seems to be how it was. The Pacific Coast, pretty much, was settled first and then the Atlantic Coast.

It may be that I should have cracked a few books before expressing these opinions, but the Jacuzzi had me in its grip. If I wrote anything too crazy, I expect someone will pip in and straighten me out. I realize I haven't written anything you didn't already know, but it feels good to just ramble along with a friend.

Hope all is well with you and Beth, and you are finding some time to stop and smell the...........flowers.

Take care,

Joe

 

[cactusjumper]

Re: CPTBIL's mention of Aztec pictographs in SE Arizona

Don Jose,

[HI Joe, come on down and spend a few days on a mule and I will show you the giants burial caves, the two pueblos of the little people, and, if we are lucky, the giant serpent in the Rio Verde.

This is the same offer that I have given basically to varios groups. They exist, one merely has to travel a bit to see them. I personally no longer go to take photos since they aren't even acknowledged. I haven't been to those areas for many years now, it is sufficient for me to simply know that they exist.

Ask the Yaquis up in Tucson or Phoenix about Yo-obwa.]

Thank you for your kind offer, but I fear my days in a saddle are over. I expect to have the bone spurs removed from my spine next year, and perhaps get both shoulders fixed soon after. Hopefully that will change my overall physical abilities for the better.

I have heard of the "Yo-obwa" legend. What is interesting about the name, is the fact that "Yo" means me or I in almost all of the local languages of Sonora.......including Spanish. "Yo" is also a word in the Chiga language of Uganda, meaning "that". "Obwa", on the other hand, is only a viable word in the language of one people, the Chiga. It means, "of".To find "obwa" being used in the Yaqui language, with no other meaning, other than the legendary bird, seems very unusual.

This has nothing to do with the accuracy of what you have written but is presented only as a point of interest and perhaps, conversation. The word "obwa" seems incongruous, at least for the Yaqui.

I would really love to see the things you have mentioned but the burden on you, as well as myself, would be disastrous.

Thank you again.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Oroblanco]

Re: CPTBIL's mention of Aztec pictographs in SE Arizona

HOLA amigos,
My apologies for yet another absence, and don't have much time tonight - at least not nearly as much time as I would prefer.

Don Jose - yes I received several EM's from you, and just sent you a "test" message, please let me know if you receive it? I had relied at least three times (I have your messages, and three of them show the "replied" arrow) but unfortunately have not been keeping copies of my outgoing messages. So if you have not received any of my replies, I will write up a new one. Pretty interesting messages you sent!

Joe (Cactusjumper) wrote

It may be that I should have cracked a few books before expressing these opinions, but the Jacuzzi had me in its grip.

Just my opinion but your answers seemed well thought out to me, and really I was looking for your own views more than the 'textbook response' - especially since in this subject, much is based on speculation and theory which frequently has to be revised in the face of new evidence(s).

The digression into "little people" may appear un-related but isn't really. The fact that Australoid peoples were able to reach Australia by crossing the open sea 40,000 years (or more) ago and that the oldest Amerindian remains found in S. America are Australoid could be an important clue as to how Ice Age people were colonizing distant lands without any need of any land bridge. If the Hobbits walked to their island(s) by a land bridge, they could have also crossed into America. We don't know if the pygmies of Tennessee were of the modern Homo sapiens sapiens or were they more closely related to Florensiensis, but it is an interesting hypothesis. We have legends of "little people" common among several Amerindian tribes, including those mentioned previously (and likely many more) and we know that most legends are based on facts; it is tantalizing to speculate that some population of little people were among the early or "first" Americans. The fact that Florensiensis people were also Mammoth hunters (pygmy mammoths, but still mammoths) would suggest to me that they would have good reason to cross to America in pursuit of mammoths, as has been proposed for Asian peoples. Alternatively if the Hobbits crossed to the islands by sea, there is even more reason to suspect they could have reached much more distant lands, including Australia, America, etc.

I don't have any info on Mammoth hunters in South or Central America, and assume there must have been people hunting them there - which could be the ancestors or at least predecessors of Clovis. I find it puzzling that Clovis SEEMS to have a large concentration of sites on the east coast (Chesapeake bay area) and appear to have spread right across America, with little evidence of them in Canada (which may be due to glaciers) or in Mexico, which may be due to an especially arid climate. I would think that an arid climate would not be attractive to mammoths or mastodons, so perhaps the Clovis people didn't go there because their principal game was not there in any appreciable numbers.

All of this probably seems totally disjointed and disconnected to a casual reader of our discussion, but I assure them it all made perfect sense to me, out in the far pasture chasing cattle. (haha) My apologies again for being among the missing yet again, and I look forward to your replies.
Roy ~ Oroblanco
<BLECH my coffee got cold! Thank god for the microwave >

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Re: CPTBIL's mention of Aztec pictographs in SE Arizona

? Micro waved coffeeNext you will be telling me that you love Obama as much as purty sheep?

Don Jose de La Mancha ( El horrified Saint)

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Re: CPTBIL's mention of Aztec pictographs in SE Arizona

Joe, you must remember my infamous saying stolen from the Mayan Indians ?

'No-one has seen tomorrows sun'. You may just be in for more saddle sores.

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[cactusjumper]

Re: CPTBIL's mention of Aztec pictographs in SE Arizona

Roy,

Many claims have been made for the Hobbits. Some of them are still questionable. Do you know what proof has been found that shows they hunted the Pygmy Mammoths?

It's possible that many "Mammoth hunters" were simply scavenging Mammoth fossils.

I have many books on the subject, and they are the source of my conclusions. That said, I do have my own independent thoughts on what might have taken place.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Oroblanco]

Re: CPTBIL's mention of Aztec pictographs in SE Arizona

HOLA amigos,

Don Jose' wrote

Micro waved coffee Next you will be telling me that you love Obama as much as purty sheep?

Don Jose de La Mancha ( El horrified Saint)

I take it then that you, personally, would sooner slurp down COLD coffee, rather than to toss the cold mug into the micro and zap it to something more like hot? Or would you just throw away that cold coffee, thus wasting one of the most precious fluids ever invented? Sheesh now I am horrified! As for loving politicians, well I can honestly say that I love no politician, and contrary to politicians at least sheep generally have a clue about what they are doing. (heh heh)

Cactusjumper wrote

Many claims have been made for the Hobbits. Some of them are still questionable. Do you know what proof has been found that shows they hunted the Pygmy Mammoths?

It's possible that many "Mammoth hunters" were simply scavenging Mammoth fossils.

I have many books on the subject, and they are the source of my conclusions. That said, I do have my own independent thoughts on what might have taken place.

I recall reading it, but do not have books handy - as I remember, they found pygmy mammoth bones with clear signs of butchering along with giant Komodo lizards in the same site with at least one of the Hobbit remains. When I just did a search online, what comes up are "pygmy Stegodon" instead of Mammoth, but Stegodons are another ancient type of the same pachyderm family (or I should say Proboscidea to be correct) As you have your own library at ready hand, do you have anything describing what evidence was found that led at least some to conclude that Hobbits were hunting the pygmy pachyderms? As I recall, most of the pachyderm bones found in association with Hobbits were of adolescent Stegodons, so perhaps they did not take on the adults.

You do know that Mammoth (and Mastodon) remains have been found with stone spear points still embedded in them, which would hardly be necessary for people simply scavenging dead critters. Clearly at least some of the Mammoth hunters were hunting the animals and not simply playing scavenger. One of the hunting methods found here has been to simply chase a herd over a cliff, which would accumulate a huge amount of meat with little evidence of actual hunting since only the butchering would have been done on the dead critters. We ought not find spear points embedded in piles of bones at such sites, but it is also clearly not a case of simple scavenging.
Roy ~ Oroblanco

 

[cactusjumper]

Re: CPTBIL's mention of Aztec pictographs in SE Arizona

Roy,

"I recall reading it, but do not have books handy - as I remember, they found pygmy mammoth bones with clear signs of butchering along with giant Komodo lizards in the same site with at least one of the Hobbit remains."

You are correct that they found the remains of Stegodon. Should the remains of the pygmy mammoth show signs of being butchered on site, I agree that would be something important and not something they would leave out of any reports........or narratives, like a book.

Archaeologist are very experienced at intimating something, without actually saying it. That's because they know everything they say will be examined to the nth degree. Here is what Mike Morwood had to say on page 112 of his excellent book, "A New Human":

"Our excavations found the remains of Stegodon, Komodo dragon, rat, bat and bird, with clear evidence that some animals were butchered on-site. The skulls of cranelike birds, Komodo dragons and Stegodon had been smashed; some bones were charred or had cut marks; different sorts of hair were also found in the excavated deposits......"

I did not search every page in my copy of the book, and Morwood did not include an Index in the book. It may be that he links butchering of Stegodon with the excavations somewhere else in the book. For me, it is telling that he worded the above quote the way that he did. A Mastodon, or in this case Stegodon to be precise, with cut marks on the bones which may point to butchering a fresh kill, would be something I doubt he would fail to mention or leave in such an ambiguous state.

There are many things which could account for the smashed bones of fossils. No doubt you are aware of them all.

I don't say that the Stegodon were not killed and butchered by the Hobbits, but Morwood who was as close to the dig as you could get, does not state that they were. I would need to reread the book, but I was left with the impression that the evidence was inconclusive. Showing due diligence for making these statements of opinion, I will go back through the book.

Take care,

Joe