NJ Law

[nickmarch]

Do the detecting laws apply to State property or just State parks? According to the story at the link below a guy was arrested & fined for detecting on State property that was not a State park.

Metal Detecting In New Jersey? Know The Law!

What about the National Historic Preservation Act. (NHPA). If something is considered an artifact will the State take it?

State property begins at the high tide mark at the beaches.

 

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[Tom_in_CA]

nick-march, I read the link you provided, about this supposed NJ incident. My answer to you is, that all the times I've read any of the compiled lists that have done over the years (like this one: Federation of Metal Detector & Archaeological Clubs Inc. ) is that those apply to state PARKS. Not simply all "state land". The reason I believe this is the case, is that is exactly how those lists were compiled, IN THE FIRST place: Someone merely asked at each of the state park's office's "what are your rules regarding metal detecting", and then compiled their list, from the results of those inquiries. For example: that is how Doc Grim compiled his book "Treasure Laws of the United States", when that book came out in the 1980s, is here merely zeroxed off 50 letters, and sent them to each state parks head offices, for their park's dept. And then when he got the 50 replies, he merely put them in alphabetic order, in his book. So as such, it in inherently applying to park lands, not simply all state land, everywhere. For example: there might have been a rule "parks close at sunset" afterall. But ... no .... no one would interpret that to mean you can't be on ANY state land elsewhere, after sunset (lest how would you drive on state roads after sunset, doh!).

So my answer is, there is varying *types* of state lands, that would have different rules of their usage. And the park's dept. being just one of them. Other types of land could be road right of ways, for example, which, yes, are state-owned (if it was a state road), but no, are not necessarily held to the same things as park land usage rules (ie.: pedestrians could walk along the sidewalk there, for example, after dark, as there is no "closing" time, for example).

So to answer to your link, I'd say the following things:

1) that there must have therefore, been an actual rule, on the "conservation land" he was on. So, yes, perhaps it was not NJ "park dept", land, but that doesn't mean that "conservation land" in NJ doesn't also have some sort of "rules" that covered this.

2) THAT IS UTTER NONSENSE to begin with, if that story is true. I mean, c'mon!! What are the odds of a "conservation officer" being in the middle of nowhere, who really cares about those things, or would do that? I mean, this reminds me of some stories you will no doubt find (if you sleuthed long enough and hard enough), of a motorist being pulled over, by an over-zealous cop, for nothing but a tail-light out. The over-zealous cop "roughs him up", arrests him, confiscates his car, etc.... for something as minor as a tail-light out. I mean, could it happen? Sure, I suppose. But is it "normal"? NO! of course not. Those type stories are the exception, not the rule. And so I'm certain that this NJ story is a BIG anomoly exception, and no, I highly doubt "conservation officers" are hiding around cellar holes in the backwoods of NJ waiting to arrest 71 yr. old men and confiscate, etc...

If you want to latch on to isolated cases like that, of someone who got roughed up for something as innocuous as that (where, even the article/link admits he was never shown any rule that he had broken), then I have some news for you: you might as well take up another hobby. Because, sure, if you ask long enough and hard enough, even I can show you rules, codes, laws, etc... that ...... given enough "morphing", could be made to apply to your hobby of detecting. Eg.: don't harm the earthworms, damage and destruction clauses, public nuisances clauses, cultural heritage clauses, etc.... I mean, the list is endless. If you ask enough people if you can pick your own nose, you will eventually find someone to tell you "no" afterall.

As to your question about artifacts and the state taking them, do you really think anyone is standing over you, as you dig each hole, with a calculator, to do the math of the dates of each coin you find (to determine 50 or 100 yrs. or whatever)? Even the fellow in your link simply handed the officer the target. I mean, think about it nick-mark: even down to city and county levels of govt. land (simple park sandboxes, school-yards, etc...) where no one's ever had a problem before: Picture this: you find an old coin worth $10,000 in the sandbox. You walk into city hall, and ask to speak to their head lawyer. You ask them:

"Hi, I found this on your city property. It's 101 yrs. old, it's worth $10k. Is it ok if I keep it for my own fun and enjoyment to sell on ebay, or does it belong to the city, since it was found on city land, and thus maybe deserves to be in the city museum?"

What do you think they will say nick-march? OF COURSE they will say "no you can't have it". I mean, sure, if you want to start down that rabbit trail, you can never have anything you find, if you want to sleuth deep enough, long enough. Even lost & found laws that each state has, mandates that you turn in all items worth over $100 (or whatever threshold your state might have) to the police lost & found. Yet a simple look at any beach hunters finds forum, and you will see no shortage of people finding rings, all the time. Do you think they are all running down to the police dept. each time? Might there be a scary story now and then of someone who didn't? Sure, I suppose. But is it the exception? Yes, of course.

 

[Ace350]

New Jersey State Park Rules & Regulations List

I posted this up in the "New Jersey" section for everyone back in June.
This should clairfy some questions.

http://www.treasurenet.com/forums/n...jersey-state-park-rules-regulations-list.html

NJAC 7.2
State Park Service Code

7:2-2.16 Metal detectors
A person shall not use metal detectors or similar devices without a permit issued by Superintendent or designee. The permit may limit the location, hours, and days of use. A permit will not be issued for use in areas of significant historical or other value, or where such use would be incompatible with protection of the resource and/or interfere with public use of the facility.

7:2-2.10 (Damage to Property/tampering)....{Rangers use this rule for digging}

(a) A person shall not abuse, mutilate, injure, destroy, move or remove any plant or animal or natural resource on lands and water under the jurisdiction or control of the State Park Service without having first obtained the permission of the Superintendent or designee. Authorized fish, game and wildlife activities are excepted.
(b) A person shall not deface damage, move or remove any furniture, equipment, structure, or physical feature of any kind on lands and waters under the jurisdiction or control of the State Park Service without the permission of the Superintendent or designee.
(c) A person shall not dig up, deface, or remove any soil, rock, historic or fossil materials or artifacts without written permission of the Director of the Division of Parks and Forestry or the Assistant Director of the Division for the State Park Service.
(d) A person shall not disturb, remove, damage, destroy or interfere with the pumps, pipes, gates, wires, dams, works and equipment of the State Park Service incident to the flow of water.
(e) An unauthorized person shall not open or enter any manhole or confined space without the specific approval of the Superintendent or designee.

Here is the NJ State website with all the Rules & Regs for NJ State Parks:

http://www.nj.gov/dep/rules/rules/njac7_2.pdf

 

[Tom_in_CA]

ace, then your own post, says that it's state PARKS rules, not simply all state lands. The parks dept. has their state land, while other state depts (like the road dept, for instance), has other state land, etc... So while someone may see dire souunding rules for their state's parks, that in no way has any bearing on other forms of state land in that state (and certainly no bearing on county or city lands either, as those too are different entities).

 

[Ace350]

ace, then your own post, says that it's state PARKS rules, not simply all state lands. The parks dept. has their state land, while other state depts (like the road dept, for instance), has other state land, etc... So while someone may see dire souunding rules for their state's parks, that in no way has any bearing on other forms of state land in that state (and certainly no bearing on county or city lands either, as those too are different entities).

I agree, the other rules for state property should be on the state website also.
I'm sure if the person inquiring looks more into the state property laws online they will find their answer.
The answer is there ya just gotta put the time and effort to find it.
I did my part. Let us know what ya find.
Happy hunting.

Here's the NJ State website:
http://www.state.nj.us/

Here's the NJ Departments:
http://www.nj.gov/nj/gov/deptserv/

Here's the NJ Admininistrative Code:
http://www.lexisnexis.com/hottopics/njcode/

 

[nickmarch]

Thanks for all the input.

In NJ the laws are just ink on toilet paper they do what they want in spite of what the laws say. Its like a third world country in nj.

The state controls the ocean from the high water mark. I want to dig at low tide between the high & low mark. People will surely see me.

Its the artifact law I'm thinking about. If I find what they classify as an artifact they will take it.

http://www.state.nj.us/dep/hpo/

 

[Ace350]

Now if ya wanna be a real Pirate you can hide it in your booty!
They will never look there!

Just kidding. I couldn't help it.

By the way, the way this is written you really can't hunt in Municipal or County Parks or land.
http://www.state.nj.us/dep/hpo/2protection/pl2004ch170_b.pdf

In NJ the laws are just ink on toilet paper they do what they want in spite of what the laws say. Its like a third world country in nj.

That's why I call N.J. "The Ununited Socialist Republic of New Jersey" or U.S.S.R.of N.J.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

ace: I would add, that all such state's sites (listing their laws), that if it is silent on the subject of metal detecting (ie.: does not mention "metal detectors" specifically), then .... presto, it must not be dis-allowed now, right? And no, I do not consider "artifact" laws, or "alterations" clauses (like to the landscape), "defacement" and other such things to apply.

If you automatically equate your activity to any of those things that can be morphed to apply, then I fear you have chosen the wrong hobby nickmarch. If you start down that road of "oh no, this horseshoe (or coin, or whatever) might be considered at artifact, oh no, therefore I might have to give it to some authority", etc.... you may as well give up now.

Sure, go ahead and ask them to define "artifact" if you want, and perhaps they'll refer you to the state archie, who might tell you "items over 50 yrs. old". And if you want to worry about that, then why not worry about whether or not the landscaper will say your retrieving constitutes "alteration" and "defacement"? Or how about the state's lost & found laws? I mean, the list is endless. if you look long enough and hard enough, you can find lots of things to apply to yourself (and not just this "artifact" verbage). But as Ace points out, ...... what the heck? did you intend to parade your items in front of the state's archies, grovelling at their desk asking if you can keep something? I've been at this for 35+ yrs. now, and I can assure you, at NO time has there ever been someone looking over my shoulder with a calculator doing the math on age, etc.....

Now if there were something specifically saying "no metal detecting", then sure, that's different. But if it boils down to WHAT you found, then gee, you're only finding clad, right? You're looking for that boyscout ring your dad lost when he was a kid there, right?

 

[cudamark]

I posted this up in the "New Jersey" section for everyone back in June.
This should clairfy some questions.

http://www.treasurenet.com/forums/n...jersey-state-park-rules-regulations-list.html

NJAC 7.2
State Park Service Code

7:2-2.16 Metal detectors
A person shall not use metal detectors or similar devices without a permit issued by Superintendent or designee. The permit may limit the location, hours, and days of use. A permit will not be issued for use in areas of significant historical or other value, or where such use would be incompatible with protection of the resource and/or interfere with public use of the facility.

7:2-2.10 (Damage to Property/tampering)....{Rangers use this rule for digging}

(a) A person shall not abuse, mutilate, injure, destroy, move or remove any plant or animal or natural resource on lands and water under the jurisdiction or control of the State Park Service without having first obtained the permission of the Superintendent or designee. Authorized fish, game and wildlife activities are excepted.
(b) A person shall not deface damage, move or remove any furniture, equipment, structure, or physical feature of any kind on lands and waters under the jurisdiction or control of the State Park Service without the permission of the Superintendent or designee.
(c) A person shall not dig up, deface, or remove any soil, rock, historic or fossil materials or artifacts without written permission of the Director of the Division of Parks and Forestry or the Assistant Director of the Division for the State Park Service.
(d) A person shall not disturb, remove, damage, destroy or interfere with the pumps, pipes, gates, wires, dams, works and equipment of the State Park Service incident to the flow of water.
(e) An unauthorized person shall not open or enter any manhole or confined space without the specific approval of the Superintendent or designee.

Here is the NJ State website with all the Rules & Regs for NJ State Parks:

http://www.nj.gov/dep/rules/rules/njac7_2.pdf

See how ridiculous our government has become? If you followed the above rules to a tee, you wouldn't even be able to have a picnic in that park without violating a half dozen of them or getting permission to violate them.

 

[Ace350]

Tom_in_CA I agree. That's also why you will never see any pictures or write ups of my finds except 2 matchbox cars and a can of Spam.

I'm just saying the loose way the law here is written, they "Those who enforce the codes" can interpret any form of MDing as a violation of the law or rules. Then lock you up and confiscate your metal detector if they choose. It's no sweat off their backs. just another day in court.
Then it's up to you and probably a lawyer to convince a judge you did not violate this loosely written law. Which either way is gonna cost you money to prove your point.

I have personnaly seen people in NJ courts being fined $1000 plus public service for pulling over on the side of the road and stepping 10 feet into the brush to take a pee because he couldn't hold it any more and there was no place to stop for miles. He was charged with urinating on State Forest land or something like that. Even when the guy explained to the judge that he had no idea he was even in a State Park because it's mostly all woods in the area and he was on a regular public road. It happens all the time to people in Bass River and Wharton state forest. And the judge could care less because those fines go to the State and he is making revenue to keep his position.
Here's a map of the area:
http://maps.google.com/maps?q=Bass+...r=Bass+River,+Burlington,+New+Jersey&t=m&z=11


But I'm a risk taker and always have been, so I'll keep MDing in the U.S.S.R. of N.J.

 

[nickmarch]

If I ever found anything significant I wouldn't ask any official if I could keep it. The problem I have is that many will see me dig. If I did find anything significant the nj crime family aka the state of nj would find out.

I probably won't bother digging. As soon as I can get out of this 3rd world state I will find things & not have to worry.

 

[hamiddetecting]

 

[Tom_in_CA]

reply

..... The problem I have is that many will see me dig.....

nickmarch, are you planning on going at high noon, and waltzing over people's beach-blankets at an archie convention?

I don't think there's any of us on this forum, that don't choose "low traffic" times to detect. I mean, it just makes common sense to keep lookie-lous and nosy-parkers at bay. Because, yeah, this hobby draws the stares of the curious onlookers. So I hunt at off-times. Like if I'm hunting parks, I'm after 5pm, and so forth. So ........ I think you're over-reacting. Unless, as I say, you expect to go during an archie convention, and expect everyone to love you. Then .... sure, worry.

 

[nickmarch]

The beach is pretty much empty this time of the year but some still walk the beach others fish & some can see from their homes. I also need an out going tide.

 

[Barrell]

This was probably on state Gamelands which are controlled by NJ Fish and Wildlife. They do have their own laws on Game lands. I can get more info tommorrow as I have contacts in NJ fw.

 

[Ace350]

If you're on a regular public beach where it is no problem, no one is gonna pay any particular attention to you. Especially this time of year. Unless of course you are wearing some crazy 80's neon colored clothes attracting attention to yourself.

If you are on state lands and aren't supposed to be there, well your taking big chances then.
If you go MDing in places you don't have permission to go you have no right to be there and are a trespasser just like anyone else. That gives a bad name for all us metal detectorists.

Most of the ocean beaches around here you can hunt during the hours the beach is not open to bathers during the summer season which is usually 9-10 am to 5-6pm. After the summer season you can go on the beaches any time.

 

[nickmarch]

the state controls from the high tide mark to 3 miles out. I need to dig deep and fast below the high tide mark. (Between tides)

In other words its state controled property. I don't have a clue what is there but there is something there.

 

[strateloss]

The Peoples Republic of New Jersey!!!


I'm with you ACE, keep a low profile and don't trespass....the rest is sort of a grey area... :P

 

[CMDiamonddawg]

highly doubt "conservation officers" are hiding around cellar holes in the backwoods of NJ waiting to arrest 71 yr. old men and confiscate, etc...

not likely unless your tearin' up the place with a excavator

 

[Native Floridian]

The story in the link is a bunch of crappola!!!! I've read the same story at least 3x over the past year with an "Insert here" location. Same old guy, same finds, same heart attack. Any chance three 71 year old rookie detectorist had heart attacks after being stopped for hunting Valley Forge, Gettysburg, or Sandy Hook? Ok, didn't think so!!! At least Sandy Hook is possible.

That said NJ does have a major hunting obstacle - The Pine Barrens. The state owned sections of these woods is off limits. They are patrolled, not by conservation officers, but by Park Rangers. They are fully sworn police officers. Most will give you a pass if you happen to be hunting back off the beaten path. That is they will tell you to stop, but not fine you or take your machine That changes if you hunting protected ruins, the beach at Sandy Hook or the state park in Cape May. Island Beach State Park has its own rules. But, back in the deep woods, things aren't so heavy handed.

Permits for lake hunting are issued for state parks. You can hunt state park lakes the day after Labor Day.