Beale Poll....Fact or Fiction?

[bigscoop]

Let’s take a little poll on the Beale codes, see what the over all consensus is. Feel free to post those points of interest that have swayed you one way or the other. While I admit that I still dabble in other possibilities the following is, to me anyway, the strongest point in favor of the hoax theory, and it presents a very strong argument in favor of a hoax.

“The numbering of the ciphers.” Prior to the unknown author arranging them by length and dubbing them c1, c2, c3, there was no known order to these ciphers. Yet, in the clear text of C2, we are told that “1 will give the exact locality of the vault……”. This to me stands as proof that the unknown author of the pamphlet and the author of cipher 2 had to be the same person. This is a very strong point in favor of a hoax.

 

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[Old Bookaroo]

bigscoop: A number of years ago a smart treasure writer (I believe it was Richard Wilburn) published a detailed analysis of the Beale matter. He pointed out several anachronisms - words that simply were not in use at the time the papers were supposed to have been written.

Personally, I don't see how any logical person can get around those basic facts.

As I recall, he also pointed out the final papers weren't really long enough to present all the promised information. it was his theory that the writer simply got tired of making it all up.

Good luck to all,

~The Old Bookaroo

 

[bigscoop]

bigscoop: A number of years ago a smart treasure writer (I believe it was Richard Wilburn) published a detailed analysis of the Beale matter. He pointed out several anachronisms - words that simply were not in use at the time the papers were supposed to have been written.

Personally, I don't see how any logical person can get around those basic facts.

As I recall, he also pointed out the final papers weren't really long enough to present all the promised information. it was his theory that the writer simply got tired of making it all up.

Good luck to all,

~The Old Bookaroo

And he was probably correct, but I'm always open to entertaining other notions.

 

[Rebel - KGC]

HA! When was THIS "poll" done? NEVER seen it! I would "go for #2; the "issue" raised by OB can be explained by the BEALE PAPERS being released to the GENERAL public in 1885 or so. COULD have been a "cover" for part of CSA Treasury & CSA weapons, as MOST "locals" in Bedford County believe; YANKS wanted it all, after the "surrender". Lynchburg, Va. was the last VIRGINIA STATE capital, after the fall of Richmond, VIRGINIA in 1865... AND! HISTORICAL records indicate as the YANKS came closer, a wagon load or two was seen "heading up the hills" (PROBABLY Trent Ferry Road towards Boonesboro, Va.). There was a statement that something (BT?) was buried in a cave above Abert, VIRGINIA and later moved to Missouri... via the James River. (PROBABLY explains why Friedman and the NSA (US GOV'T) were so interested in this "mystery, that they sent ppl to Lynchburg, Va. in the 1940's (I think) asking ppl what THEY knew). NSA & the Beale Treasure can be "googled".
Coffee?

 

[Rebel - KGC]

8) Storm is over... SUN is coming out! Going back to the "poll", etc. it would be interesting to see what ppl base their responses on; all the "arm-chair" researchers have is the BEALE PAPERS? LOL! When ya live in the area of "the story", you can find ADDITIONAL info of "interest". DYK that the OLD CITY CEMETERY here in Lynchburg, Va. has a HUGE CSA burial section (MANY hospitals here, during the CONFEDERATE WAR)... AND! There is a plaque on the OCC ground, saying that the Beale Treasure was buried in OCC; in the 60's City of Lynchburg, VIRGINIA allowed city/cemetery employees to dig up a SPECIFIED section (even have a paper "pic" of it, looks like a corner of the CSA section, next to the old stone wall, where ROSES grow). "Junk" was found, such as a hourseshoe, coat hanger wires, etc.; they shoulda dug DEEPER/UNDER the "junk"... HA! I don't even think you need to ciphers 1 & 3 to figure things out... just a "ruse" or two.

 

[bigscoop]

It's interesting to examine all the directions researchers have taken in pursuing a possible solution/truth to the Beale mystery.

 

[Rebel - KGC]

8) YEP! It helps to be a "local"! 8)

 

[bigscoop]

8) YEP! It helps to be a "local"! 8)

Perhaps, but a lot of big discoveries have been made by armchair researchers over the years so given that you went with "number 2" I don't know that being a local is really an advantage? Could be that mindset is a disadvantage?

 

[Rebel - KGC]

NAW, no disadvantage with a "open mind"; I can walk the streets of Lynchburg, Va.; I can walk the areas of interest in Bedford County, VIRGINIA. I can do Research & Investigation at libraries in Lynchburg, Bedford City/County, Roanoke, VIRGINIA. I can & have visited museums in Lynchburg, Bedford City/County, Lexington, VIRGINIA. Peter Viemeister (RIP) wrote in his last Beale Treasure-related book (what he REALLY believed) about "it" being CSA-related stuff, and what MOST Bedford County ppl believe. PV's last book was CONFEDERATE COVER-UP: DUTY,
HONOR, & DECEIT; he called it a novel... I call it FACTION; FICTION based on FACTS! 8) BEALE CROSS is another good book coming soon; NSA & THE BEALE TREASURE, done by Carol... can't remember her last name. 8)

 

[Rebel - KGC]

bs, YOU have 20 or 20 + years of research on this... what is YOUR "take"?

 

[bigscoop]

bs, YOU have 20 or 20 + years of research on this... what is YOUR "take"?

Well, I just don't know. I still think the door on this one is going to remain wide open until someone produces something conclusive, if it actually exist at all? I do know one person whose in the process of putting together a pretty impressive case but they're also painfully aware that without clean and related solutions to the remaining ciphers all they have is just another theory. I said in the beginning of this poll that there is some strong evidence in favor of the hoax theory, but likewise, there is also some strong evidence in favor of a few other theories as well, so I just .

 

[Rebel - KGC]

TY... It WILL be interesting! Newton Hazlewood (RIP) was involved via Hart Bros. story in which he asked one of the Hart Bros. to copy or type the "figures" on three separate papers which alluded to a treasure buried near his house in the Peaks of Otter area of Bedford County, VIRGINIA. What IS interesting in that N. Hazlewood (Confederate Vet) had the FULL Shakespeare set of writings (which PROBABLY included the Baconian Code(s), since Francis Bacon may have really written the Shakespeare stuff). Elizabeth AND William Friedman (NSA) also had the FULL set of Shakespeare/Bacon... and were VERY interested in the Beale Cipher(s). Hart Bros. Papers; "google"... "HART PAPERS"

 

[Rebel - KGC]

I have ONLY been researching this since 2005, with research & investigation on the HISTORY of Lynchburg & Bedford County, VIRGINIA, with EMPHASIS on early colonial/pre-colonial history (ie native ppl aka "Indians"). Emphasis is NOW placed on the CONFEDERATE WAR (aka Civil War) and the after-math, which goes up to 1885, which brings me to an interesting "conflict". BEALE PAPERS: BC # 2, already solved; "I have deposited... etc. etc."
A "What IF..." question; what if BC#1 & BC #3 were NEVER meant to be solved? "What IF... we are to focus on Civil War "history"? What IF... we are to follow the "Affluence Trail" of Paschal Buford, since HE is the FIRST Bedford County, VIRGINIA "star" of the show... with Bufords, Locust Level, Fancy Farm, various mills, Bufords stone at the courthouse in Bedford City (formerly known as LIBERTY)? What IF... something BIG (treasure) IS found in Bedford County, VIRGINIA... BUT! Not as part of "deciphering", just deducting from historical records? Coffee?

 

[bigscoop]

I have ONLY been researching this since 2005, with research & investigation on the HISTORY of Lynchburg & Bedford County, VIRGINIA, with EMPHASIS on early colonial/pre-colonial history (ie native ppl aka "Indians"). Emphasis is NOW placed on the CONFEDERATE WAR (aka Civil War) and the after-math, which goes up to 1885, which brings me to an interesting "conflict". BEALE PAPERS: BC # 2, already solved; "I have deposited... etc. etc."
A "What IF..." question; what if BC#1 & BC #3 were NEVER meant to be solved? "What IF... we are to focus on Civil War "history"? What IF... we are to follow the "Affluence Trail" of Pachal Buford, since HE is the FIRST Bedford County, VIRGINIA "star" of the show... with Bufords, Locust Level, Fancy Farm, various mills, Bufords stone at the courthouse in Bedford City (formerly known as LIBERTY)? What IF... something BIG (treasure) IS found in Bedford County, VIRGINIA... BUT! Not as part of "deciphering", just deducting from historical records? Coffee?

There are a lot of "what ifs" and 200 years later that's the beauty of it all. Obviously a great deal of people believe the whole affair is a complete hoax or a simple work of fiction. But, for the sake of discussion, if we run with number 2 above I guess one has to first determine where & when the fiction ends and the real portion of the story begins? Real town, the pamplet speaks of real people using their real names (with the possible exception of TJB)....many of them very influential people....it's understandable why many people refuse to accept the hoax or fiction theories.

 

[Rebel - KGC]

Hmmm... INTERESTING! Are YOU "confining" yourself to the "box" of the BEALE PAPERS, then?

 

[bigscoop]

Hmmm... INTERESTING! Are YOU "confining" yourself to the "box" of the BEALE PAPERS, then?

Not at all, just openly exploring one of the reasons why this mystery continues to intrigue people enough (self included) to cause them to continue looking in other places, such as you mentioned above with the Civil War history.

Keeping in mind that the Beale Pamphlet (1885) is indeed the very source/inspiration of this treasure mystery; “if” the pamphlet was actually penned with the notion of relating it to something else that took place many years later, say in the 1860’s, then why did the author feel the need to go all the way back to 1819 in his telling of the event? Not saying he had no reason for doing so, just saying I have no idea what practical/logical/ reason he would have for doing that unless those earlier events were relevant to the later event in some way.

 

[Rebel - KGC]

True, "out-of-the-box" thinking and subsequent R & I may well "solve" this mystery; OR... maybe not. Coffee? 8) AND! I think (MHO) that we need to go BACKWARD in time from 1885, to 1860's, to 1819/1822 for the "JOB PRINT" (aka BEALE PAPERS). MUST be a "sense of adventure" or something.

 

[Rebel - KGC]

Raining in Virginia @ 7am/est; went to Roses Fest in Old City Cemetery in Lynchburg, Va. yesterday and chatted with the guy who is in charge of cemetery history, etc. We discussed the "BT plaque", and he stated it was based on digging up the "indicated area" ( offered to show me where... I declined since he was busy; we agreed to meet again and review all information). He admitted it WAS secretive and Jones Memorial Library (source of I & R in Lynchburg, Va. has NOTHING on the 1970 dig; I knew it was in the late 60's). ANYWAY, the FIRST clue was carvings on a tree on Monroe Street (told him that I hope the tree was still standing, and that I could "read" carvings). PREVIOUSLY, I had seen "hoot owl" trees pointing to CSA cemetery; didn't get a chance to get up "close & personal" to the trees, and look for "tie-down scars". I BRIEFLY explained to him about "Hoot-Owls" and that they shoulda dug under the junk that was found, and sometimes clues are on on head stones near the "site of interest".
Will find what the BT Plaque (BTP) said and share it here, today. Coffee?

 

[Rebel - KGC]

Here it is... the Beale Treasure Plaque in Old City Cemetery in Lynchburg, VIRGINIA!
"For over 180 years, the search for the treasure left by Thomas Jefferson Beale has fascinated treasure hunters far and wide. It has never been found and the three part code has never been deciphered. For a period of time, in the mid 1900's, the fabulous treasure of gold, silver, and jewels, valued at over $ 1,700,000 was thought to be buried in this cemetery. An official "dig" in the cemetery was allowed by City officials after being presented convincing evidence
of metal detector readings, carved signs on a particular tree, and a partially deciphered code. The City was to receive one half the value of the treasure, but only old coat hangers, and horseshoes were found, and the frenzy of excitement and speculation faded with the dream." HA! They shoulda dug DEEPER, or look in the "direction" that the horseshoes were "facing"/going; TYPICAL "mistake" made by Treasure Hunters... "AH! Only JUNK METAL!"

 

[bigscoop]

I'm not sure I buy into the theory that neither C1 & C3 hold enough code to produce the information they are suppose to contain. Here's why:

C1 has more then enough text to offer the location of the vault, especially if the location was a location that was already know and familiar to the recipient of the secret. For this very reason, "if" C1 contains a true clear text then I expect C1 will also contain a short explanation as well. Not because it has too little text, but because it has too much.

C3 has more then enough text to offer the names and residences of thirty "associates". For instance if I had thirty partners with offices in the same one or two buildings then I wouldn't need near the space VS thirty completely different residences. In fact, if those thirty names and residences were already avaliable somewhere else then all I would need to do is to tell you where to find that information.

Just more food for thought.