Wheres The Beef?

[ECS]

Yes,bigscoop,all these events connected together are amazing -but it is the sizzle of beef cooking,but the beef is never in the frying pan.Too much pretzel logic in the events-they always fold back into its self.
Sometimes it appears that everyone are trying to fit parts from several different jigsaw puzzels into one,and sometimes a piece will seem to fit,but then the next one doesn't.
One question that one needs to consider-"If the Beale pamphlet never existed,would the treasure still exist?".
The other question would be-"What was the purpose of printing the Beale Pamphlet?'.
That is the alpha and omega of the search.

 

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[Rebel - KGC]

Yes,bigscoop,all these events connected together are amazing -but it is the sizzle of beef cooking,but the beef is never in the frying pan.Too much pretzel logic in the events-they always fold back into its self.
Sometimes it appears that everyone are trying to fit parts from several different jigsaw puzzels into one,and sometimes a piece will seem to fit,but then the next one doesn't.
One question that one needs to consider-"If the Beale pamphlet never existed,would the treasure still exist?".
The other question would be-"What was the purpose of printing the Beale Pamphlet?'.
That is the alpha and omega of the search.

"Treasure" WOULD exist, bc of THE HART PAPERS... PURPOSE...? Because the author died in 1885; the SECRET coulda died with him.

 

[bigscoop]

Yes,bigscoop,all these events connected together are amazing -but it is the sizzle of beef cooking,but the beef is never in the frying pan.Too much pretzel logic in the events-they always fold back into its self.
Sometimes it appears that everyone are trying to fit parts from several different jigsaw puzzels into one,and sometimes a piece will seem to fit,but then the next one doesn't.
One question that one needs to consider-"If the Beale pamphlet never existed,would the treasure still exist?".
The other question would be-"What was the purpose of printing the Beale Pamphlet?'.
That is the alpha and omega of the search.

Again, not arguing your point at all, in fact, as can see by several of my previous post/threads, I'm a frequent supporter of the same type logic. And, in fact, that is the entire point to this of this thread, just getting there by two different avenues. And let us not forget that what you are suggesting is also true of the CSA theory as well. Which brings us right back to some of my previous questions, threads, and post regarding our inability to confirm the actual authenticity of the original tale, i.e., "find and confirm that true source of that tale and your mystery will be solved". And, by means of mutual/related association that is exactly what this thread is attempting to discuss.

 

[bigscoop]

"Treasure" WOULD exist, bc of THE HART PAPERS... PURPOSE...? Because the author died in 1885; the SECRET coulda died with him.

The "author died in 1885".....how can you confirm the author, or the fact that he died in 1885? To my knowledge nobody has been able to confirm who the actual author of the Pamphlet was? If this could be confirmed then the Beale Pamphlet mystery would have been successfully solved long ago. The fact that we don't know, and can't confirm, the actual source of the tale is the very reason the mystery still exist today.

 

[Rebel - KGC]

The "author died in 1885".....how can you confirm the author, or the fact that he died in 1885? To my knowledge nobody has been able to confirm who the actual author of the Pamphlet was? If this could be confirmed then the Beale Pamphlet mystery would have been successfully solved long ago. The fact that we don't know, and can't confirm, the actual source of the tale is the very reason the mystery still exist today.

Books, papers, family memoirs...? Would THAT do...?

 

[bigscoop]

Books, papers, family memoirs...? Would THAT do...?

It's all circumstantial evidence unless you have a confession or a statement/document of confirmation that conclusively confirms who the author was. Reb, this thread isn't about the defense of any single theory, it's about the need to discover conclusive proof confirming the tale, or more accurately, our inability to do so thus far. ECS is accurate in his "weaving fact into fiction" statement because it is rampant in this mystery. So this thread is all about putting it all on the table in search of, "conclusive confirmation" or the discovering of an alternative means/avenue where the actual source may eventually be found.

 

[bigscoop]

Keep in mind that for the purpose of the following post we can directly connect Beall, Beale, Bufords, Ward, Sherman, Marshall, Jackson, Clay, Coles, and many others to the series of events and individuals surrounding the source and content:

There is a letter in existence, I believe dated 1829, (I don’t have the letter in front of me) from President James Monroe to Joseph Bonaparte in Richmond, in which he utterly denies accusations that the United States made several large payments to Tallyrand, J. Bonaparte, and others for services rendered. What is still missing, however, is the critical communication that prompted this direct response.

Tallyrand, he was an instrumental player during the negotiations for the Louisiana Purchase. All of the men listed as having been possibly paid were also leading Bonapartist. Thomas Jefferson knew them all very well from the time he had spent in France, even going as far as writing letters of introduction for a Bonaparte family member during the up-evils in France.

It is not my purpose to discuss this theory but I am simply pointing this out as a matter in the ongoing discussion as to how many of the same names and many of the events can likewise be directly, and very strongly connected to Bedford Country and the story of a missing fortune. Maybe some will be so inclined to dive into all of this with the end result possibly producing that all-elusive smoking gun. And to add, most do not realize it but Bonapartism ran very strong in the region. When we look at factors such as the so-called patriot army then one also has to realize that these French refugees were being used in much the same way, and this is also an undeniable fact. Again, the time period is correct and all of the same names and roots are present and active in the series of events. Is it, as has already been stated, weaving fact into fiction? No more so then other theory out there. Likewise, the circumstantial evidence in this theory is extremely strong.

Point, and my reason for posting? Simply to exhibit the need to confirm the source of the original tale.

 

[bigscoop]

Here's a map of the actual 1818 treaty boundaries. Look at ceded area in Colorado.

 

[mical66]

all i have to say is my hats off to the 3 of you guys, reading your posts make me dizzy with all the references you use.
i can tell you all have done alot of research and invested alot of time . where i always considered my self a problem solver i have to rephrase that now . my problem solving skills are more mechanical , this stuff you guys are doing blows my mind, and i wish i could keep up with you,,lol
so when you decide to go dig up this 65 million keep in mind you wont need it all and may be able to use a strong back with a mechanical mind to help get the loot out .
and to also pat my self on my own back,, im pretty damn honest too .

 

[bigscoop]

mical66,
I use to install/troubleshoot/maintain automation & robotic systems for the plastic and auto industry, at least until the bottom fell out of manufacturing in these industries. Did it for about 30 - 35 years. Been completely out of it now since 2007. But it is much the same type thing here, interfacing all the different technologies and components into one big package that actually works. And, just as with automatons and robotics, it may all work just fine on paper but that it is seldom the case in the actual field.

 

[ECS]

The "author died in 1885".....how can you confirm the author, or the fact that he died in 1885? To my knowledge nobody has been able to confirm who the actual author of the Pamphlet was? If this could be confirmed then the Beale Pamphlet mystery would have been successfully solved long ago. The fact that we don't know, and can't confirm, the actual source of the tale is the very reason the mystery still exist today.

Exactly!
Too much time has been spent trying to fit real historical events into the story of Beale,his companions,and the treasure.
One must look deeper into the history of the creation and origin of the pamphlet itself,ie,separate from its contents.
Beale gives Morriss sealed box and relates his story in 1822.
Last letter from Beale to Morriss (May 9,1822) states "key" is left with friend and will be delievered to Morriss,June,1832.
"Key" was never delievered to Morriss,so he opens sealed box in 1845.
1862,Morriss tells story of Beale and gives the three ciphers to unknown party.
1885,J B Ward publishes the Beale Papers pamphlet for sale for 50 cents with 2nd cipher decoded using the DOI.
Cipher 1(location) and cipher 3(list of 30 heirs and addresses)can not be deciphered using the DOI.
Note #1:Cipher 3 appears to be too short for 30 names and addresses.
Note #2: Some words used in the Beale story were not in use until the 1840's.
Note #3:The Civil War is mention in the pamphlet.

 

[bigscoop]

And this is the real nuts and bolts to the whole mystery, "the source". Without the source it then becomes possible to create unlimited possibilities, especially given the many events that took place in this country from 1817 through 1885, with many of these events effecting the lives of nearly everyone to some degree. So yes, there will always be suspicious evidence and connections that can be made, "especially when we are looking for them". So it is back to the source of the tale, the Beale Pamphlet, the only constant in the entire affair.

In regards to the pamphlet, there are only two identifiable people who would have possibly had prior knowledge of the published work, and that was Ward and Sherman, and that's it.

 

[bigscoop]

Franklin, I would like to find more sources/information on the Sherman genealogy/history, still a big void in his family's history and of all those possible connections.

 

[ECS]

And this is the real nuts and bolts to the whole mystery, "the source". Without the source it then becomes possible to create unlimited possibilities, especially given the many events that took place in this country from 1817 through 1885, with many of these events effecting the lives of nearly everyone to some degree. So yes, there will always be suspicious evidence and connections that can be made, "especially when we are looking for them". So it is back to the source of the tale, the Beale Pamphlet, the only constant in the entire affair.

In regards to the pamphlet, there are only two identifiable people who would have possibly had prior knowledge of the published work, and that was Ward and Sherman, and that's it.

One must look at the events from 1862 (2nd year of the War of Northern Aggression) when Morriss gave the story,the box and ciphers to an" unknown party" to J B Ward's publishing of the pamphlet in 1885.That is the crucial period that begs for investigation.Where was the box and ciphers during this time?
It was a turbulent time in the South-the continuation of the War untill 1865,then RECONSTRUCTION and the rise of Nathan Bedford Forrest's resistance group,to President Hayes decoration of Confederate soldiers graves at Chattanooga on Memorial Day,1877,and the ATLANTA IDUSTRIAL EXPOSITION OF 1877,the beginning of a "new" SOUTH.
Where were the Beale papers and who had possession of them during this period?
...and WHY was it published in 1885 and not before?

 

[bigscoop]

One must look at the events from 1862 (2nd year of the War of Northern Aggression) when Morriss gave the story,the box and ciphers to an" unknown party" to J B Ward's publishing of the pamphlet in 1885.That is the crucial period that begs for investigation.Where was the box and ciphers during this time?
It was a turbulent time in the South-the continuation of the War untill 1865,then RECONSTRUCTION and the rise of Nathan Bedford Forrest's resistance group,to President Hayes decoration of Confederate soldiers graves at Chattanooga on Memorial Day,1877,and the ATLANTA IDUSTRIAL EXPOSITION OF 1877,the beginning of a "new" SOUTH.
Where were the Beale papers and who had possession of them during this period?
...and WHY was it published in 1885 and not before?

First, here again, we're assuming the Beale Papers were written a significant period prior to publication, yet there is no proof of this. That story could have just as easily been created and penned just months/year or so before. Second, and according to the tale, J.B. Ward was just the agent, he may or may not of had anything to do with the actual publishing of the Pamphlet? Three, the lone reference "1862" and the "second year of the Civil War" is pretty thin evidence to start trying to build a CSA theory around, especially since the tale's original source supposedly pre-dates this time frame by some 65 years. As you said before, here again we may simply be weaving more fiction. And on top of this, the life of J. B. Ward has already been picked apart a thousand times over with no real measure of evidence coming to the surface.

What I find really odd about this tale is the fact that so many are willing to believe in the tale as long as they can pick and choose which portion of the tale is accurate, and just how much of it. Many are so willing to attach the entire mystery to the 1862 and CSA period "only". Lacking the confirmed type of evidence we are discussing, how is it possible that we can believe only portions of a tale that we can't even confirm/authenticate? We have all been guilty of this, of course, but the sad truth is that after all of our research efforts we still can't actually prove the source of the tale or that a treasure ever existed at all.

 

[Rebel - KGC]

First, here again, we're assuming the Beale Papers were written a significant period prior to publication, yet there is no proof of this. That story could have just as easily been created and penned just months/year or so before. Second, and according to the tale, J.B. Ward was just the agent, he may or may not of had anything to do with the actual publishing of the Pamphlet? Three, the lone reference "1862" and the "second year of the Civil War" is pretty thin evidence to start trying to build a CSA theory around, especially since the tale's original source supposedly pre-dates this time frame by some 65 years. As you said before, here again we may simply be weaving more fiction. And on top of this, the life of J. B. Ward has already been picked apart a thousand times over with no real measure of evidence coming to the surface.

What I find really odd about this tale is the fact that so many are willing to believe in the tale as long as they can pick and choose which portion of the tale is accurate, and just how much of it. Many are so willing to attach the entire mystery to the 1862 and CSA period "only". Lacking the confirmed type of evidence we are discussing, how is it possible that we can believe only portions of a tale that we can't even confirm/authenticate? We have all been guilty of this, of course, but the sad truth is that after all of our research efforts we still can't actually prove the source of the tale or that a treasure ever existed at all.

WRONG! I saw a copy of the JB Ward request for BP "copy-write" and positive response from LOC, somewhere. MAY be a copy on internet. THAT is confirmation or authentication... (for JB Ward).

THE HART PAPER(s) doesn't have the "tale"... ONLY "changed" ciphers.

MORE about THE HART PAPER(S)... C. Hart was the person who made copies of the Cipers, changing them SLIGHTLY; N. Hazlewood had the Ciphers, saying such alluded to a treasure buried near HIS home, in the Peaks of Otter area (NOW, Fed-land; BRP); Hazlewood was a Sgt, CSA AND... POSSIBLE, former CSA SPY! C. Hart told HIS brother about that & later went to Lynchburg, Va. to interview JB Ward & getting a copy of the pamphlet (PROBABLY from a Ward descendant). I think THIS was the copy that Peter Viemeister had in one of HIS books, on the Beale Treasure. THE HART PAPER(S) is a article/paper on the R & I done by two Treasure Hunters from Roanoke, Va. It is "on-line"...

 

[bigscoop]

WRONG! I saw a copy of the JB Ward request for BP "copy-write" and positive response from LOC, somewhere. MAY be a copy on internet. THAT is confirmation or authentication... (for JB Ward).

THE HART PAPER(s) doesn't have the "tale"... ONLY "changed" ciphers.

....copyright and publishing are two different things. i.e., writers/agents/publishers; the person who writes it, the person who represents it, the person who publishes it. They can be the same person, usually referred to as self publishing, or they can be three completely different individuals. Not questioning the authenticity of Ward, we know he was real and we know he applied for the copyright, but that certainly isn't proof that he wrote it or that he had any personal knowledge of the actual tale other then what he saw written on the pages. It is a huge jump to assume that he had anything to do with the actual writing of the pamphlet or that he had any first hand knowledge of the events in the pamphlet. All we are told is that he was the agent and that he is the one who applied for copyright. And a copyright doesn't prove the authenticity of the tale, even complete works of fiction are copyrighted.

 

[Rebel - KGC]

LOL! NEVER said JB WARD wrote it...

 

[bigscoop]

Doesn't really matter anyway. Fact is, all we can really establish is that Ward and Sherman were the only two people we can identify as having knowledge of the Pamphlet prior to its publication. This is why "fiction" advocates feel so strongly that the entire thing was simply a work of fiction, because Sherman of the Job Print also had a history of writing these type of works and his cousin, Ward, ends up being the agent whose name appears on the copyright. To their credit, these fiction advocates present a pretty strong case, indeed. Ward, his life has already been picked apart in every direction over the years, however, there is still much to learn about Sherman's possible connections and family history. Personally, I think if there is any hope of establishing any confirmed credibility to the source of the tale then it rest in these unknowns regarding Sherman. He is the only remaining direct connection to the tale who hasn't been thoroughly investigated. Maybe something in his history or his family's unsearched history will provide a connection.

 

[Rebel - KGC]

Doesn't really matter anyway. Fact is, all we can really establish is that Ward and Sherman were the only two people we can identify as having knowledge of the Pamphlet prior to its publication. This is why "fiction" advocates feel so strongly that the entire thing was simply a work of fiction, because Sherman of the Job Print also had a history of writing these type of works and his cousin, Ward, ends up being the agent whose name appears on the copyright. To their credit, these fiction advocates present a pretty strong case, indeed. Ward, his life has already been picked apart in every direction over the years, however, there is still much to learn about Sherman's possible connections and family history. Personally, I think if there is any hope of establishing any confirmed credibility to the source of the tale then it rest in these unknowns regarding Sherman. He is the only remaining direct connection to the tale who hasn't been thoroughly investigated. Maybe something in his history or his family's unsearched history will provide a connection.

Where is the PROOF that Sherman & Ward were cousins...? I have PROOF that Ward & the Hutter Brothers WERE cousin; THEIR grandfather was James Beverly Risque, who lived in Fincastle, Va.. then moved to Lynchburg, Va. Have seen NO proof that SHERMAN & JB Ward were cousins... SHOW ME!