Wheres The Beef?

[tat2guy]

Franklin,

Have you read the unpublished hart manuscript at the library? Is it a long or worthy read? And are you referring to their being another manuscript other than George's from 1964?

Thanks Jay

 

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[tat2guy]

Rebel,

Same as above

 

[Rebel - KGC]

Franklin,

Have you read the unpublished hart manuscript at the library? Is it a long or worthy read? And are you referring to their being another manuscript other than George's from 1964?

Thanks Jay

Wasn't there... no. Sorry, tried to delete this, as it wasn't to me...

 

[Rebel - KGC]

Rebel,

Same as above

Nope... wasn't there.

 

[tat2guy]

Just had a copy mailed to me from the library. It's an unpublished manuscript roughly 80 pages in length. Hopefully that's the right one. It's from George Hart in 1964.

 

[tat2guy]

The library made copies to give to researchers. Hope it helps us all.

 

[bigscoop]

Where is the PROOF that Sherman & Ward were cousins...? I have PROOF that Ward & the Hutter Brothers WERE cousin; THEIR grandfather was James Beverly Risque, who lived in Fincastle, Va.. then moved to Lynchburg, Va. Have seen NO proof that SHERMAN & JB Ward were cousins... SHOW ME!

There you go, now you're catching on! It's all about what we can confirm and can't confirm. Sherman and Ward can both be traced back to the Otey and Buford families. I never said they were first cousins.

 

[tat2guy]

I haven't seen much on Clayton. Are you willing to share the source in which you learned of the Clayton manuscript?

 

[Rebel - KGC]

LOL! YOU "wrote" that they WERE cousins... "post" # 47.

 

[Rebel - KGC]

The George Hart paper is the ONLY one, I am aware of...

 

[tat2guy]

tat2guy, That manusript was written by George Hart. The manusript written by Clayton Hart has not been found yet. The manusript from the Roanoke Library can be found on line for free. It mostly deals with hypnotizing that Clayton his brother performed about how his subject led them to where the treasure was believed buried. Read it on line and save $20.

The copy was free....they even covered the postage. Ask and ye shall receive, sometimes lol

HH Jay

 

[bigscoop]

Since we're discussing the Harts, I wonder what spurred their original interest in the story? It's almost as if they were already motivated in some way to seek out the source of the tale. So I have often wondered if, perhaps, they didn't already have some prior knowledge of the tale even before the pamphlet was published? Pure speculation? Probably, but then again, maybe not?

I have always been curious if there may have been a reason why the author listed the names of Marshall, Jackson, Coles, Clay, etc. When we look into these people we learn that one of Clay's most famous clients was a, "Hart". This makes me curious if, perhaps, George and Clayton weren't already privy to the same story or possibly some of it's details? Odd that both brothers pursued the mystery with such passion right out of the gate and then continued chasing it for so long in spite of the lack of success. Just seems as if there might be something more here.

And Reb, no matter how you wish to look at it, when you follow the genealogies, Ward and Sherman were related through bloodlines/family ties regardless how distant. Sherman had Otey blood and Ward married into the Otey family.

 

[ECS]

First, here again, we're assuming the Beale Papers were written a significant period prior to publication, yet there is no proof of this. That story could have just as easily been created and penned just months/year or so before. Second, and according to the tale, J.B. Ward was just the agent, he may or may not of had anything to do with the actual publishing of the Pamphlet? Three, the lone reference "1862" and the "second year of the Civil War" is pretty thin evidence to start trying to build a CSA theory around, especially since the tale's original source supposedly pre-dates this time frame by some 65 years. As you said before, here again we may simply be weaving more fiction. And on top of this, the life of J. B. Ward has already been picked apart a thousand times over with no real measure of evidence coming to the surface.

What I find really odd about this tale is the fact that so many are willing to believe in the tale as long as they can pick and choose which portion of the tale is accurate, and just how much of it. Many are so willing to attach the entire mystery to the 1862 and CSA period "only". Lacking the confirmed type of evidence we are discussing, how is it possible that we can believe only portions of a tale that we can't even confirm/authenticate? We have all been guilty of this, of course, but the sad truth is that after all of our research efforts we still can't actually prove the source of the tale or that a treasure ever existed at all.

The story/history comes from the pamphlet-is that fact or fiction?
J B Ward was the agent for the pamphlet-where and from whom did he recieve the Beale story?
1862,the 2nd year of the Confererate War,Morriss "gave" the story,box,and ciphers to an unknown party-what happened to Beale's original handwritten ciphers?
...and,if they did exist,where and in whose possession were these ciphers between 1862 and 1885,and where are they today?
One other thought-Why would the 2nd cipher which tells of the treasure decoded by the DOI and included in the pamphlet,but 1st location and 3rd members list continue to be uncipherable?
Could it all be just a way to make a quick 1885 buck at 50 cents a pop?
...or is ir a ruse that leads to a CSA "double code" concerning a KGC "vault".

 

[Rebel - KGC]

Since we're discussing the Harts, I wonder what spurred their original interest in the story? It's almost as if they were already motivated in some way to seek out the source of the tale. So I have often wondered if, perhaps, they didn't already have some prior knowledge of the tale even before the pamphlet was published? Pure speculation? Probably, but then again, maybe not?

I have always been curious if there may have been a reason why the author listed the names of Marshall, Jackson, Coles, Clay, etc. When we look into these people we learn that one of Clay's most famous clients was a, "Hart". This makes me curious if, perhaps, George and Clayton weren't already privy to the same story or possibly some of it's details? Odd that both brothers pursued the mystery with such passion right out of the gate and then continued chasing it for so long in spite of the lack of success. Just seems as if there might be something more here.

And Reb, no matter how you wish to look at it, when you follow the genealogies, Ward and Sherman were related through bloodlines/family ties regardless how distant. Sherman had Otey blood and Ward married into the Otey family.

The HARTS became interested when Clayton Hart copied the figures for N. Hazlewood (CSA Sgt.); From Roanoke, Va. the Hart Bros. did R & I, etc, on the "Hazlewood Treasure"; ALL of which is indicated in the paper by George Hart... THE HART PAPER(s). AND! BIG Depositories of the KGC, is indicated by the HEART symbol (valentine heart)... POSSIBLY the the name, HART! In THIS case, it would be a CSA/KGC "thing"...

 

[Rebel - KGC]

The story/history comes from the pamphlet-is that fact or fiction?
J B Ward was the agent for the pamphlet-where and from whom did he recieve the Beale story?
1862,the 2nd year of the Confererate War,Morriss "gave" the story,box,and ciphers to an unknown party-what happened to Beale's original handwritten ciphers?
...and,if they did exist,where and in whose possession were these ciphers between 1862 and 1885,and where are they today?
One other thought-Why would the 2nd cipher which tells of the treasure decoded by the DOI and included in the pamphlet,but 1st location and 3rd members list continue to be uncipherable?
Could it all be just a way to make a quick 1885 buck at 50 cents a pop?
...or is ir a ruse that leads to a CSA "double code" concerning a KGC "vault".

HA! Could be BOTH!

 

[bigscoop]

The HARTS became interested when Clayton Hart copied the figures for N. Hazlewood (CSA Sgt.); From Roanoke, Va. the Hart Bros. did R & I, etc, on the "Hazlewood Treasure"; ALL of which is indicated in the paper by George Hart... THE HART PAPER(s). AND! BIG Depositories of the KGC, is indicated by the HEART symbol (valentine heart)... POSSIBLY the the name, HART! In THIS case, it would be a CSA/KGC "thing"...

Reb, buddy, no, the Harts took interest in the tale before they ever met anyone, even Ward. They came to the area in search of answers after already having knowledge of the Pamphlet story, and likely from reading the pamphlet first. So the question is, did they travel to the area just to investigate a possible treasure story, or did something in that story possibly remind them of something they had already heard tell of?

 

[Rebel - KGC]

Reb, buddy, no, the Harts took interest in the tale before they ever met anyone, even Ward. They came to the area in search of answers after already having knowledge of the Pamphlet story, and likely from reading the pamphlet first. So the question is, did they travel to the area just to investigate a possible treasure story, or did something in that story possibly remind them of something they had already heard tell of?

HA! NOT what George Hart wrote... yer confusing the HAZLEWOOD TREASURE, with the BEALE Treasure. Because of the "ciphers"... they are the SAME.

 

[bigscoop]

You know the 1952 Hart Papers if you read them correctly has James B. Ward as the author. Read paragraph four and five. It says that JBW was the man that broke code paper number 2 using the DOI. Wasn't that what the author said he done and then he turned the manuscript over to JBW. Also Clayton Hart talked to JBW and his son and both said the treasure story was authentic. Also the March 16, 1884 petition to the LOC for a copyright said the treasure was authentic. And the copyright March 21, 1885. You can view a copy of those pages on the Internet.

A copyright only serves to establish the rightful owner of the work, it does not serve to authenticate that the content of that work is authentic/true. This isn't to say Ward wasn't the author as he very well could have been. Most copyrights are applied for by the author, however, it is also common for publishing house to apply for the work. And in cases of ghost writers (which I have done) it is the agent or publisher who applies for copyright. And if the author really wishes to remain anonymous, then he would have to have an agent apply for the copyright or his name would forever be a matter of public record and easily discovered. So as the story goes, our author desired to remain anonymous so he would have needed an agent. The curious thing is this, however, if the book wasn't published with profit in mind, there wouldn't even be a need for a copyright. And this is something to really consider, why the copyright if all you were wishing to do was to circulate the story? Why did the author feel the need to protect the written work and to establish rights to it?

 

[bigscoop]

HA! NOT what George Hart wrote... yer confusing the HAZLEWOOD TREASURE, with the BEALE Treasure. Because of the "ciphers"... they are the SAME.

OK. It's your trip, travel it however you wish. But remember, the point of this discussion isn't to try to prove or disprove any single theory, it's about trying to find confirmations in regards to the source of the original tale, because as of current, we have none.

 

[Rebel - KGC]

OK. It's your trip, travel it however you wish. But remember, the point of this discussion isn't to try to prove or disprove any single theory, it's about trying to find confirmations in regards to the source of the original tale, because as of current, we have none.

Sticking to the "JOB PRINT"...? A COVER-STORY!... LOL!