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  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by ECS View Post
    Still NO substantial HARD evidence that the Beale treasure ever existed-just additional speculative facts that "MIGHT" fit the pamphlet tale.
    True. However, in 1819/20 one of these parties were in the described Colorado region and also Santa Fe. but it is fairly certain they could not have transported a large quantity of wealth. Ironically, this same party started into the region in 1817 as well.
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  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigscoop View Post
    True. However, in 1819/20 one of these parties were in the described Colorado region and also Santa Fe. but it is fairly certain they could not have transported a large quantity of wealth. Ironically, this same party started into the region in 1817 as well.
    Are you refering to Capt Zebulon Pike's 1805-1807 expeditipn from the upper Mississippi to the Rockies and then onto Sante Fe,which was part of the Spanish territory of Mexico?
    You also mention the Adams-Onis Treaty of 1819,also known as THE FLORIDA PURCHASE TREATY or THE TRANSCONTINENTAL TREATY.
    It came about after General Andrew Jackson's foreys into Florida,basicly making Florida a conquered province.While Sec of State John Q Adams did not approve of Jackson's actions,he upheld Jackson against Sec of War John C Calhoun's criticism,and persuaded President Monroe to send an ultimatum to Spain.
    This treaty of cession created a boundary line (stairstep) from the Sabine River in Texas to the point where the 42 parallel of latitude meets the Pacific Ocean,as SPANISH territory.
    What does the Adam's-Onis Treaty have to do with the Beale Pamphlet and treasure?
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  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by ECS View Post
    Are you refering to Capt Zebulon Pike's 1805-1807 expeditipn from the upper Mississippi to the Rockies and then onto Sante Fe,which was part of the Spanish territory of Mexico?
    You also mention the Adams-Onis Treaty of 1819,also known as THE FLORIDA PURCHASE TREATY or THE TRANSCONTINENTAL TREATY.
    It came about after General Andrew Jackson's foreys into Florida,basicly making Florida a conquered province.While Sec of State John Q Adams did not approve of Jackson's actions,he upheld Jackson against Sec of War John C Calhoun's criticism,and persuaded President Monroe to send an ultimatum to Spain.
    This treaty of cession created a boundary line (stairstep) from the Sabine River in Texas to the point where the 42 parallel of latitude meets the Pacific Ocean,as SPANISH territory.
    What does the Adam's-Onis Treaty have to do with the Beale Pamphlet and treasure?
    No. Not Pike. There was another. Years have been spent researching documents in regards to the events of West Florida and the disputed Texas region, this includes hundreds of personal correspondences and official documents, as well as many documents housed in numerous private collections. Let me ask you this, who do you think financed the American effort during the War of 1812? "Where did the majority of the money come from?" This shouldn't prove hard to find. Once you locate this person continue to research him thoroughly. Also, you'll want to dive deep into the collections of Madison, Monroe, Adams, de Onis, and through this you will find many others to quirk your interest. You may even come across the letter from Monroe to Joseph Bonaparte in which Monroe is in utter denial of having paid Bonaparte and others for services rendered. And the man who helped finance the War of 1812, you will eventually learn of his close connections to Bonaparte, Lallemand, and others. Through all of this research you will indeed learn a great deal, but most important you will eventually encounter the name of James Risque again, and many others, and even a Thomas Beale and also a Thomas Beall. Now you've asked me why I believe the Adam's Onis Treaty likely played a role in the Beale Pamphlet and I wish I could could give you the short answer you're awaiting, but i can't because there is no short answer. But I will, however, offer you the following map as to why I say there was another party in the west during the period and why I also say that they were in Santa Fe. So as for your theory, there were many sources of this information even before 1850. In fact, right now, if you go to ebay and a few auction sites you'll even find newspapers and maps from the era in relation to some of the events I've spoken of up for auction.
    Click image for larger version. 

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    PS: Study the map closely.
    "Treasure is wherever it can be found."

  4. #34
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    It is interesting that you mentioned Joseph Bonapart.In the 1950's,my grandmother,an architec,was part of the New Jersey Historical Society.She would study a site or house,and would draw blueprints of the dwellings.
    When I was six,she took me to Bonapart's mansion at Point Breeze in Bordertown ,New Jersey,where she was researching and mapping the vast network of tunnels beneath the property that led to the Delaware River and Crosswicks Creek.The only one I entered had an arched brick ceiling and had a creek running through it.That is all that I remember of that trip.
    Joseph Bonapart did entertain many statesmen of his times at his mansion,including John Q Adams (Adams-Onis Treaty) and Daniel Webster.
    Bonapart returned to Europe in 1832,reunited with his wife in Italy and died in Florence in 1844.

  5. #35
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    There's a lot of interesting stuff with the Bonapartes, Lallemands, Girard, Marshall, Clay, Monroe, and a whole host of others. Point Breeze was a fabulous place and you are correct, many prominent and influential people were guest of the place. There's just a ton of documents and correspondences out there. Only about 30% - 40% of some of these collections/personal records have been gone through. Hard to say what may still be laying undiscovered in all of it. There are still several leads that need to be followed and several people who still need to be looked into.
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  6. #36
    ECS
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigscoop View Post
    There's a lot of interesting stuff with the Bonapartes, Lallemands, Girard, Marshall, Clay, Monroe, and a whole host of others. Point Breeze was a fabulous place and you are correct, many prominent and influential people were guest of the place... There are still several leads that need to be followed and several people who still need to be looked into.
    That is quite a list of names.
    Stephen Girard,banker/merchant of Philadelphia,financed the US Treasury with his own wealth for the WAR OF 1812.His neice,Henrietta,married Henri Lallemond,a deserter from Napolean's army,and friend of Joseph Bonaparte.
    The map ypu posted shows the LONG-BELL EXPEDITION of 1820,federaly funded and sactioned by Sec of War,John C Calhoun,as a scenitific exploration,but it was a coverup for its true purpose-a recon and intelligence of the Spanish Territory after the Adams-Onis Treaty.Led by Major Stephen H Long with Capt John R Bell as the journal writer of the mission,they traveled from the Red River to the Platte,to Manitou Springs and Pikes Peak,and Sante FE,all well within the Spanish Territory.There is NO mention of gold in Bell's journal.
    What do these people and events have to do with the BEALE treasure?
    Last edited by ECS; Apr 18, 2013 at 05:15 PM.

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by ECS View Post
    That is quite a list of names.
    Stephen Girard,banker/merchant of Philadelphia,financed the US Treasury with his own wealth for the WAR OF 1812.His neice,Henrietta,married Henri Lallemond,a deserter from Napolean's army,and friend of Joseph Bonaparte.
    The map ypu posted shows the LONG-BELL EXPEDITION of 1820,federaly funded and sactioned by Sec of War,John C Calhoun,as a scenitific exploration,but it was a coverup for its true purpose-a recon and intelligence of the Spanish Territory after the Adams-Onis Treaty.Led by Major Stephen H Long with Capt John R Bell as the journal writer of the mission,they traveled from the Red River to the Platte,to Manitou Springs and Pikes Peak,and Sante FE,all well within the Spanish Territory.There is NO mention of gold in Bell's journal.
    What do these people and events have to do with the BEALE treasure?
    I see you've been busy reading up on things. In 1816/1817 George Graham (a banker) is appointed as the interim Sec. of War, so in essence your War Dept. is now being headed up by a banker. More on this later. Anyway, in 1818 two important events take place, the Adam's Onis Treaty is signed and George Graham is sent to Galveston Island with a small party of men. Nearly as soon as George Graham returns from his Galveston trip/mission he is appointed as president of The Second Bank of America (1819). While Graham was at Galveston Island he met with Laffite, James Long, and Charles Lallemand. When Graham departs Galveston Island Charles Lallemand departs with him. (Laffite, J. Long, and Lallemand make up the entire core of the insurgents who were in the region.) James Long is eventually captured by the Spanish and taken to Mexico City where his later "assassinated" and not "executed" as many general sources claim, (More on this later). In 1821 the Adam's Onis Treaty is ratified as expected after the two-year agreed term when the treaty was signed in 1818. (You'll want to research the "spoliation agreement" of this treaty.) As soon as the treaty is signed Laffite leaves Galveston Island. In 1823 the Monroe doctrine is introduced, though actually penned by Adam's. And, in 1823 Graham leaves his position as President of the Second Bank. Now then, while he was holding his position as President of that Bank, who did George Graham answer to at that Bank? And, what was the importance of this Bank and the congressional controversy surrounding it?
    Last edited by bigscoop; Apr 18, 2013 at 06:07 PM.
    "Treasure is wherever it can be found."

  8. #38
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    March 3,1817,the US Congress passed a bill offering land to French settlers in Texas.This was during the time George Graham was US Sec of War.When John C Calhoun became Sec of War,Graham stayed on as a "special agent" and made the trip to Galveston to meet with Jean Laffite and Bonapatists General Charles Lallemand.
    Champ d' Asile was founded by Lammemand in 1818,and also on Jan 14,1818,150 would be settlers arrived in Texas from Phliadelphia.
    The Philadelphia and National Bank connection appears to lead to Stephen Girard,and I have noted Girard's connection to the Lallemond family.
    Arlingtoncemetary.net: The Leading Arlington Cemetery Site on the Net
    Graham is buried at Arlington,and there is an essay on him at this site.
    Last edited by ECS; Apr 18, 2013 at 07:45 PM.

  9. #39

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    Quote Originally Posted by ECS View Post
    March 3,1817,the US Congress passed a bill offering land to French settlers in Texas.This was during the time George Graham was US Sec of War.When John C Calhoun became Sec of War,Graham stayed on as a "special agent" and made the trip to Galveston to meet with Jean Laffite and Bonapatists General Charles Lallemand.
    Champ d' Asile was founded by Lammemand in 1818,and also on Jan 14,1818,150 would be settlers arrived in Texas from Phliadelphia.
    The Philadelphia and National Bank connection appears to lead to Stephen Girard,and I have noted Girard's connection to the Lallemond family.
    Arlingtoncemetary.net: The Leading Arlington Cemetery Site on the Net
    Graham is buried at Arlington,and there is an essay on him at this site.
    THAT is GREAT info!
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  10. #40
    ECS
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    FROM THE MEMOIRES OF JEAN LAFITTE

    Dated Jan 4,1847 concerning events on Feb 24,1821 preparing to depart from Galveston-"I recommended to Mr Hall,Mr Campbell,Mr SHERMAN and those of Bolivar to KEEP PROMISE AND DISTRIBUTE THE GOLD TO THE INDICATED PLACES."
    Dated June 4,1850-"Mr WARD,Mr Knowles,and Mr Peabody seem to be very,nice men..."
    -Relatives of the Sherman and Ward of the BEALE PAMPHLET?Where are the indicated places?
    Dated Dec 1,1846-"My meeting took place with him (de Onis) during my third mission to Washington in the presence of Secretary Adams and President Monroe."
    Adams,Monroe,de Onis,and Laffitte together in a meeting in Washington-coincidence?
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  11. #41
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    Much of this information already appears on this forum in other, older threads. However, this is a very complex set of circumstances that there is just no easy answer for. To fully understand the entire situation and all of the circumstances would take volumes of material. If you have not read the chronology of events outlined in the Fifth Generation now might be a good time to do that.
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  12. #42

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    Quote Originally Posted by bigscoop View Post
    Much of this information already appears on this forum in other, older threads. However, this is a very complex set of circumstances that there is just no easy answer for. To fully understand the entire situation and all of the circumstances would take volumes of material. If you have not read the chronology of events outlined in the Fifth Generation now might be a good time to do that.
    Brad Andrew's paper...?

  13. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rebel - KGC View Post
    Brad Andrew's paper...?
    Yep, the relationship of the deposit dates and the signing and ratification of the Adam's Onis Treaty. Once you find this section, then insert the dates when Lallemand left Texas and Laffite left Texas. A word of caution in all of this....you're going to encounter several different accounts in regards to these events and you're also going to encounter a fair amount of conflict in the details. This is why we decided that we had to start tracking all of the possible documented sources, which has been a couple of mountains worth of paper trail, to say the least. In short, the enterprise that was engaged had a treasury, part of this treasury was deposited when the French refugees left Camp de Asile, the other half was deposited when Laffite left Galveston Island. Hence, "Keeping to their (prior/pre-arranged) promise to distribute the gold to the indicated places." There are some older threads here in the Beale forum that discuss a great deal of this stuff.

    One other thing, in order to draw a clearer picture of what was really taking place in all of this is going to require a great deal of research beginning with the Louisiana Purchase and the conflicts in Europe and many revolts throughout the period.
    Last edited by bigscoop; Apr 19, 2013 at 07:14 PM.
    "Treasure is wherever it can be found."

  14. #44

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    Quote Originally Posted by bigscoop View Post
    Yep, the relationship of the deposit dates and the signing and ratification of the Adam's Onis Treaty. Once you find this section, then insert the dates when Lallemand left Texas and Laffite left Texas. A word of caution in all of this....you're going to encounter several different accounts in regards to these events and you're also going to encounter a fair amount of conflict in the details. This is why we decided that we had to start tracking all of the possible documented sources, which has been a couple of mountains worth of paper trail, to say the least. In short, the enterprise that was engaged had a treasury, part of this treasury was deposited when the French refugees left Camp de Asile, the other half was deposited when Laffite left Galveston Island. Hence, "Keeping to their (prior/pre-arranged) promise to distribute the gold to the indicated places." There are some older threads here in the Beale forum that discuss a great deal of this stuff.

    One other thing, in order to draw a clearer picture of what was really taking place in all of this is going to require a great deal of research beginning with the Louisiana Purchase and the conflicts in Europe and many revolts throughout the period.
    Good Luck with THAT! Get a University Prof "on this". DO NOT have the time.
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  15. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rebel - KGC View Post
    Good Luck with THAT! Get a University Prof "on this". DO NOT have the time.
    ...yep, Tat, myself and a few others I have been at it for at least a couple years now, a couple of us even much longer. One of the things we realized a while back was this, "Noway is one individual going to be able to follow all of the possible leads and sort through all of the required documents and materials by himself."

    To give you an idea, just pick a name out of the Laffite Memoirs and ask Tat what he knows about that person. Chances are if there were any records on that person "anywhere" Tat can probably recite the info from memory.
    Last edited by bigscoop; Apr 19, 2013 at 07:58 PM.
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