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  1. #601
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    Quote Originally Posted by ECS View Post
    And so with LaFitte's memoirs,a Bonaparte involvement,Girard and Patterson,Lallemand,and now Cochrane has been added to the tale-what do you accept as evidence and proof? Where is the provenance that connects these people to the Beale story and treasure?
    The "foolish debates" continue because you offer slim evidence and proof on a French/Bonaparte,and now a Greek connection in Lynchburg,but lack the provenance to support such claims.,which serve no purpose towards the progress of establishing the truth.Present something solid,please.
    Find your provenance. We'll continue to pursue finding ours. And I've already told you what I'll accept as conclusive proof many times. You consider it slim evidence and I'm fine with that, already fully aware that it's going to take the conclusive proof being sought, and I'm expecting/accepting of nothing else. But at least we're moving forward and still looking for that conclusive proof instead of simply resting on an established theory/possibility that we can't yet conclusively prove. If you don't wish to entertain the possibilities presented then don't. I know I wouldn't if I was so certain they posed no possible connection and I was 100% certain of the dime novel conclusion.
    "Treasure is wherever it can be found."

  2. #602
    ECS
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigscoop View Post
    Find your provenance. We'll continue to pursue finding ours. And I've already told you what I'll accept as conclusive proof many times. You consider it slim evidence and I'm fine with that, already fully aware that it's going to take the conclusive proof being sought, and I'm expecting/accepting of nothing else. But at least we're moving forward and still looking for that conclusive proof instead of simply resting on an established theory/possibility that we can't yet conclusively prove. If you don't wish to entertain the possibilities presented then don't. I know I wouldn't if I was so certain they posed no possible connection and I was 100% certain of the dime novel conclusion.
    A quote from Brad Andrews's Beale treasure article THE FIFTH GENERATION,sums it all:
    "...reason for doubting these other theories is simply because of the way the supporting information has been compiled...first a pet theory is formed,then the evidence and likewise presented so that it supports the pet theory.Believe me,this is a very easy thing to do,forcing the evidence to fit the theory..."
    Last edited by ECS; Oct 25, 2013 at 01:52 PM.

  3. #603
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    Quote Originally Posted by ECS View Post
    A quote from Brad Andrews's Beale treasure article THE FIFTH GENERATION,sums it all:
    "...reason for doubting these other theories is simply because of the way the supporting information has been compiled...first a pet theory is formed,then the evidence and likewise presented so that it supports the pet theory.Believe me,this is a very easy thing to do,forcing the evidence to fit the theory..."
    And that, I believe/feel, is 100% accurate. One of the biggest reasons we're pursuing this particular avenue is because we feel we have, during the course of our research, eliminated all other possibilities, "with the exception of the simple dime novel theory" that I have never discounted, only the lack of conclusive proof to fortify the claim. This seems to be where you're having difficulties, understanding that we feel as strongly as we do because, "we have yet to be able to disprove the core aspects of the theory." Just exactly the exact who's and where's and why's are concerned, some we feel we have more then enough evidence to establish the theory as a very strong possibility, while other aspects are still being researched, some discarded and others still being on the table, new avenues come and go. But through all of this, "we can't disprove the core theory" which is why we feel very strongly that it is the correct avenue if there is any measure of truth in the tale at all. And all of this is the very reason so many fiction theorist keep coming back to these forums...."uncertainty".
    "Treasure is wherever it can be found."

  4. #604

    Jun 2007
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    LOL! I certainly have MORE than enough "evidence" for the CONFEDERATE WAR "theory"; living here in Lynchburg, Va., walking the "streets of HISTORY"... with CLOSE access to Bedford County, Va. (Liberty, Buford's), etc; walking the V & T RR Tracks past Thaxton, going up to the Peaks (North & South... aka Peaks of Otter), VMI, Lexington, Va., Roanoke, Va., BRP... KNOWING CONFEDERATE WAR history; can YOU say the SAME...? Oui...?
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  5. #605
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rebel - KGC View Post
    LOL! I certainly have MORE than enough "evidence" for the CONFEDERATE WAR "theory"; living here in Lynchburg, Va., walking the "streets of HISTORY"... with CLOSE access to Bedford County, Va. (Liberty, Buford's), etc; walking the V & T RR Tracks past Thaxton, going up to the Peaks (North & South... aka Peaks of Otter), VMI, Lexington, Va., Roanoke, Va., BRP... KNOWING CONFEDERATE WAR history; can YOU say the SAME...? Oui...?
    At least you're getting fresh air and exercise.
    "Treasure is wherever it can be found."

  6. #606

    Jun 2007
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    And YOU...?
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  7. #607
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rebel - KGC View Post
    LOL! I certainly have MORE than enough "evidence" for the CONFEDERATE WAR "theory"; living here in Lynchburg, Va., walking the "streets of HISTORY"... with CLOSE access to Bedford County, Va. (Liberty, Buford's), etc; walking the V & T RR Tracks past Thaxton, going up to the Peaks (North & South... aka Peaks of Otter), VMI, Lexington, Va., Roanoke, Va., BRP... KNOWING CONFEDERATE WAR history; can YOU say the SAME...? Oui...?
    I lived in Harrisburg for a year and a half and worked a construction project at James Madison University back in the 90's We road through the Shenandoah Valley in and around Elkton, it is a breath taking sight for sure. All of those dear standing right beside the road grazing like they don't even see you. Caught my first eel out of the Shenandoah river which caused me to kick over two new lawn chairs and break a good lantern! I HATE SNAKES!! told you I was a redneck!
    You should dig around in Albemarle county for the real K.G.C. links. It was a hot bed.
    L.C.

  8. #608

    Jun 2007
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    Quote Originally Posted by L.C. BAKER View Post
    I lived in Harrisburg for a year and a half and worked a construction project at James Madison University back in the 90's We road through the Shenandoah Valley in and around Elkton, it is a breath taking sight for sure. All of those dear standing right beside the road grazing like they don't even see you. Caught my first eel out of the Shenandoah river which caused me to kick over two new lawn chairs and break a good lantern! I HATE SNAKES!! told you I was a redneck!
    You should dig around in Albemarle county for the real K.G.C. links. It was a hot bed.
    L.C.
    I also worked construction at JMU, while taking classes for Psych. Degree, Minor in Religion; 1977. Born & raised in Shenandoah, Va. (@ 6 miles north of Elkton on Rt. 340); Shenandoah Nat. Park/Skyline Drive WAS/IS wonderful, with deer, here & there; especially BIG MEADOW(S), Did LOTS of fishing on the RIVER, and had @ 3 BIG old Black Snakes as "pets" who would come out, when I knocked on "their log"; fed 'em dead mice & called 'em, my pet snakes... my girl friends were NOT amused. LOL! BTW, KGC in Albemarle County is "rumored" with "connections" to SECRET 7 SOCIETY at UVA; MY family IS from Albemarle County on my father's side... VERY SECRETIVE ppl. Older brother is UVA grad. (1965). I am JMU 1977 & 78. He was UVA "Pika" & I was OAK (Omega Alpha Kappa).
    Last edited by Rebel - KGC; Oct 26, 2013 at 09:48 PM.
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  9. #609

    Jun 2007
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    Quote Originally Posted by franklin View Post
    On December 6, 1819 which is the time that TJB was staying with Robert Morriss, this was written about the debtors prison which incidentally is not an actual prison ---- it was a boundary line that you could not cross inside of town. Anyway when they were mentioning the boundaries of the debtor's prison it gave the streets and the buildings upon those streets. It mentions that the Bell Tavern, Washington Inn and the Mason's Hall were down Church Street in Lynchburg. So as you can see there was a Washington Inn run by Robert Morriss in 1819. Also the Bell Tavern was a portion of the same building. That is the portion of the building where Jackson and Jefferson stayed that was mentioned by the Job Print Pamphlet.

    In 1833 this land was divided into three lots----Deed Book L pages 283 and 284. One was 50 feet another was 13 feet by 60 feet and was the Bell Tavern where Maurice Langhorne lived in 1833. They also have a photo of the same building saying Maurice Langhorne lived in the old home of Robert Morriss, Esquire. The other lot was 55 feet next to the Washington Tavern. Deed Book L page 294.

    If you go further back to 1805 This was lot #31 and was sold to Thomas Wiatt as a House of Entertainment the building was 36 feet by 28 feet the well house and the kitchen sat further back.

    In 1808 Seth Ward owned a 1/2 acre lot of this land on the East Corner of Church and 7th Street and was called Ward's Tavern. Deed Book A Page 117 with an insurance policy #63, came from the Virginia State Archives.

    In 1813 Charles Johnston owned the portion of the Bell Tavern paying $6,000
    In 1816 David and William Kyle bought the Bell Tavern paying $16,000 Deed Book A Page 353

    Robert Morriss lived on part of Lot #84 in 1822. The lot formerly owned by Chiswell Dabney North Corner of Main and 7th Street. Deed Book B Page 150 page 9 also Will Book Page 353. In 1814 Robert Morriss sold part of Lot #84 to William Robinson North Corner of Main and Fifth Street Deed Book B Page 150 September 1822 Farmers Bank of Virginia sold to Archibald Robertson 82 1/2 feet of Lot #84 Mrs Archibald Robertson was a daughter of James Brown. When sold Robert Morriss was still living there. Deed Book B Page 150 Deed Book J page 19.
    In 1831 Maurice Garland purchased the residence from Archibald Robertson Book K page 317.

    PS What was the woman's name trying to claim Thomas Beale's Estate in New Orleans, Louisiana? Was she not a Dabney which owned the building where Robert Morriss ran the Washington Inn?
    NONE of this is indicated in REAL Lynchburg, Va. history; wonder why...? Old Lynchburg, Va. was NOT part of Campbell County, then; VERY strange!
    Last edited by Rebel - KGC; Oct 27, 2013 at 08:35 AM.
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  10. #610
    ECS
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    Franklin,the woman who came to New Orleans to claim Beale's Virginia property was Chlory Delancy/Chloe Dalancy/Delaney of Botetourt County.
    Now Dabney(D'Aubigny) was a French Huguenot name of one of the families that settled in Bedford county after the French Edict of Nantes 1685,which ended the toleration of protestants in Catholic France.
    The early Huguenot settlers of Bedford county are not related or had any part in the French/Bonaparte connection theory of the Beale Papers.
    Last edited by ECS; Oct 27, 2013 at 04:02 PM.

  11. #611
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    Quote Originally Posted by Old Bookaroo View Post
    tat2guy:

    I believe that statue depicts the gallant Gen. John R. Reynolds, a son of Pennsylvania who fell early during the battle at Gettysbury.

    The September 1820 date is when he was born. The base of the statue has "September 21" (based on a photo I found on the Internet). Wikipedia (and we know that is always correct) gives the date as the 20th. Guess this is one time it would be incorrect to claim "Well, at least it isn't etched in stone."

    Good luck to all,

    ~The Old Bookaroo
    Thanks book. Ill post a pic when I get it

  12. #612
    Old Silver
    Quote Originally Posted by ECS View Post
    Edward Fitzgerald Beale(1822-1893) was a frontiersman who published his journals in 1850-"The Beale Papers",which are available from the LIBRARY of Congress.
    The similarities between E F Beale's papers and Ward's pamphlet are hard to dismiss-here are just a few.
    E F BEALE -1850 ----- ------- ----T J BEALE-1885 Ward's pamphlet
    Started expedition in St Louis --- --- Left St Louis
    Expedition had 30 men--- --- Expedition had 30 men
    Went to Santa Fe --- --- Went to Santa Fe
    Traveled in Colorado--- ---Found gold and silver in Colorado
    Born in 1822 --- ---Letters to Morriss dated 1822,Ward born 1822
    Published journal as "THE BEALE PAPERS"--- ---Ward pamphlet "THE BEALE PAPERS"
    E F called "justley a lion" --- --- T J called "the Lion"
    One journey listed as 1817 miles--- --- Started journey in 1817
    Gold was NOT found by E F --- ---One of T J's men found the gold
    Recieved $13,000 for an adventure--- --- Exchanged silver for $13,000 for transportation
    Similar words and terms used in both "BEALE PAPERS"
    EXACT LOCALITY
    STAMPEDE
    ABUNDANCE OF GAME
    ACCESSION TO OUR NUMBERS
    BUFFALOES
    GRIZZLY BEARS
    There are many others.
    So the question arises-Happenstance,Coincidence,or Deliberate Plaglarism on the part of Ward to sell a concocted treasure story with one solved cipher solved,the other two unsolvable?
    Or is the story a PERSHER CODE relating to a KGC treasure vault?
    You list about 8 similarities, and about 8 that I think are misleading.

    How can you compare a journey of 1817 miles with the YEAR 1817?

    Born in 1822 has nothing with the letters to Morriss dated 1822.

    Neither of these men found gold...one of their men did. That's a very weak comparison.

    Similar words and terms used in both Beale papers? These are words and terms common to almost all writing of that time.
    And It's hard to imagine any trip out west in the early 1800s without an encounter with buffaloes and grizzly bears.


    Then you state as fact: "Someone, be it Morriss, his wife, Ward, or the friendly tavern owner-had access to E F Beale's 1850 journal, and USED that journal as the basis for the T J Beale story."

    Your "facts" seem to have a few flaws. I guess that makes you guilty of the quote you like to post, "First a pet theory is formed, then the evidence will be arranged and likewise presented so that it supports the pet theory."

  13. #613
    ECS
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    Quote Originally Posted by Old Silver View Post
    ...

    Similar words and terms used in both Beale papers? These are words and terms common to almost all writing of that time.
    And It's hard to imagine any trip out west in the early 1800s without an encounter with buffaloes and grizzly bears.


    Then you state as fact: "Someone, be it Morriss, his wife, Ward, or the friendly tavern owner-had access to E F Beale's 1850 journal, and USED that journal as the basis for the T J Beale story."

    Your "facts" seem to have a few flaws. I guess that makes you guilty of the quote you like to post, "First a pet theory is formed, then the evidence will be arranged and likewise presented so that it supports the pet theory."
    Do you have irrefutable evidence that the events in the 1885 Beale Papers actually happened with the Thomas Beale of the story?If you have read the entire thread,I cited several sources that show where the storyline was lifted,E F Beale 1850 Beale Papers,the journal from the Long-Bell Expedition,Kit Carson's memoirs,treasure article in the 1879 Lynchburg Virginian,and the dime novels of John Sherman (cousin of J B Ward)which utilized Edgar Allen Poe's ciphers.
    The anachronistic useage of words and terms were not in use in 1822,but came later with the publication of the aforementioned memoirs and journals.
    Mine is not the only "pet theory" on this thread,and Brad Andrews' quote can apply to all of them.
    So what do you believe?
    1.The Beale story is true as written
    2.A dime western/treasure novel
    3.A cover stoty for another treasure
    A.The LaFitte/Bonaparte French connection
    B.The missing Confederate treasury
    C.A KGC cache
    D.A Freemason safe hold

  14. #614
    ECS
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    One item that hasn't been addressed,is "In what condition is the Beale treasure?Is the gold & silver raw ore or refined?If refined,how,when,and where?
    Most smelting of silver during that time involved the WASHOE AMALGAMATION PROCESS,where crushed,concentrated ore is ground into a paste,and several chemicals,including mercury,are added.The amalgam is heated in a vat,with the waste slurry rising to the top,the mercury being recovered through condensation,and the crude silver remaing at the bottom.This operation generated tailings,or waste piles of rock.There is NO mention in the 1885 BEALE PAPERS of what conditional state the gold & silver were in.
    ...and the diamonds that were traded for in St Louis-were they cut or rough,what was the grade,and before St Louis,where was their origin?
    Most who read cipher2,accept the treasure to be in "finished" condition,but that detail is also lacking in the 1885 BEALE PAPERS,but who needs details in a dime western/treasure novel,unless it is a cover story for another real treasure.

  15. #615

    Jun 2007
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    Quote Originally Posted by ECS View Post
    One item that hasn't been addressed,is "In what condition is the Beale treasure?Is the gold & silver raw ore or refined?If refined,how,when,and where?
    Most smelting of silver during that time involved the WASHOE AMALGAMATION PROCESS,where crushed,concentrated ore is ground into a paste,and several chemicals,including mercury,are added.The amalgam is heated in a vat,with the waste slurry rising to the top,the mercury being recovered through condensation,and the crude silver remaing at the bottom.This operation generated tailings,or waste piles of rock.There is NO mention in the 1885 BEALE PAPERS of what conditional state the gold & silver were in.
    ...and the diamonds that were traded for in St Louis-were they cut or rough,what was the grade,and before St Louis,where was their origin?
    Most who read cipher2,accept the treasure to be in "finished" condition,but that detail is also lacking in the 1885 BEALE PAPERS,but who needs details in a dime western/treasure novel,unless it is a cover story for another real treasure.
    I asked SIMILAR questions on another "thread". I think the GOLD & SILVER were COINS from part of the CSA TREASURY;
    JEWELRY was donated to CSA by SOUTHERN ladies for the CONFEDERATE WAR "efforts". "BP" is a COVER-STORY; Confederate Treasure Coverup LOL!
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