Proof Positive

[franklin]

Can anyone post any positive proof that the Beale Treasure Party that spanned the years 1817 to 1822 actually happened. Imagine 31 men leaving their families, whether brother, sister, father, mother or children and not a word of complaint in any newspaper, any diary or any court records. Does not seem possible to me.

There had to be others asked that did not go as TJB said others could not leave their families or finance the trip and he did want them along any way. So why is there no braggart out there that said they were all killed and I am still here because I refused to go.

There is no record in the newspapers in St. Louis or Franklin, Missouri or any of the towns enroute. There is no record in the Spanish Archives of the Beale Party showing up and staying the Winter of 1817. And there is no record of them buying mining supplies. And believe me the mining supplies were not readily available in Sante Fe as the Spanish would have hounded them for the location of the mine. James Pursley had gold in his powder pouch and he was under house arrest in Sante Fe from 1805 or 1806 until the Mexican Independence in 1822. I don't think mining supplies were readily available. Also all white men would have been arrested. The Muir and Chateau party in 1815 was arrested and all their supplies taken on the Platte River a little southwest of Present day Denver, Colorado. Can not believe it ever happened. I know James Beverly Ward and his son said they believed the story to be true.

So come on let me see Proof Positive without speculation of yes or no. I mean facts.

 

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[Rebel - KGC]

YOU haven't found anything, yet...?

 

[franklin]

YOU haven't found anything, yet...?

No and I don't believe we ever will. Waiting on factorial information. NONE OUT THERE. I do not believe it ever happened. I will believe that until I see someone dig up four tons of gold, silver and $13,000 in jewelry which today should be about $13 million.

 

[Rebel - KGC]

OK...

 

[Rebel - KGC]

MAYBE, we need to consider that it has ALREADY been found... ppl who indicate SUDDEN wealth in "the past". 1) Paschal Buford, 2) Robert MORRIS, who ran Washington House/Inn (his HOME) in Lynchburg, Va. up to 1822; THEN, built & manage Washington HOTEL in 1823 for a few years, 3) Harry Wright, from Bedford county, near Buford's FANCY FARM (Rt. 43 N). AH! THE MYSTERY!

 

[franklin]

Something can not have already been found if you can not prove that it existed to start with. There are hundreds of piece facts out there that are real history but none of those pieces prove the story was not fiction or in fact if it happened at all.

 

[Rebel - KGC]

Good point... how do we explain "sudden wealth", then...? "The story" MUST been a COVER-STORY...

 

[franklin]

Good point... how do we explain "sudden wealth", then...? "The story" MUST been a COVER-STORY...

Sudden wealth can come in many forms. First, Robert Morris you must remember he was kin to some of the richest families in America. Anyone of them could have extended him a loan or a gift. Paschal Buford was a man of many talents, he was Sheriff of Bedford County, he was into keeping a boarding house, owned hundreds of acres of land, was a Veteran of the War of 1812 and could have inherited thousands of acres more in land grants. All those people could have earned their money. Just like the Wright Family just because they became rich in Mexico does not mean they found a treasure before they left Virginia. First they would have had to exchange it into cash or lug 8,000 pounds of silver and gold to Mexico with them. All of these three are speculated to have something to do with the Beale Treasure as anyone can find trails of riches through KIngs and Queens, pirates such as Jean Lafitte and tie ends with other known treasures such as the KGC or CSA Treasury. All are speculated with no proof of legs to stand on, we need factorial proof and so far none has been found only speculation. So the Beale Treasure so far is speculation or fiction until we find a solid fact that ties them together.

 

[Old Silver]

Sudden wealth can come in many forms. First, Robert Morris you must remember he was kin to some of the richest families in America. Anyone of them could have extended him a loan or a gift. Paschal Buford was a man of many talents, he was Sheriff of Bedford County, he was into keeping a boarding house, owned hundreds of acres of land, was a Veteran of the War of 1812 and could have inherited thousands of acres more in land grants. All those people could have earned their money. Just like the Wright Family just because they became rich in Mexico does not mean they found a treasure before they left Virginia. First they would have had to exchange it into cash or lug 8,000 pounds of silver and gold to Mexico with them. All of these three are speculated to have something to do with the Beale Treasure as anyone can find trails of riches through KIngs and Queens, pirates such as Jean Lafitte and tie ends with other known treasures such as the KGC or CSA Treasury. All are speculated with no proof of legs to stand on, we need factorial proof and so far none has been found only speculation. So the Beale Treasure so far is speculation or fiction until we find a solid fact that ties them together.

The thing, for me, is not that Robert Morriss came into sudden wealth, but WHEN it happened. It happened at the exact right time for the Beale story to be true. Same thing with the sale of all those oxen and ox carts and work horses. Everything happened at the exact time to be right in line with the Beale story. Now I know none of it is proof positive, but you have to admit it's at least pretty good evidence. I do agree with you though, we need more.

 

[Rebel - KGC]

And THAT was what PV was doing in his book, THE BEALE TREASURE: NEW History of a MYSTERY; ALL kinds of POSSIBILITIES... NONE, PROBABLE? "He concluded", 4 "possibilities"; 1) PURE CREATIVE FICTION; 2) A COVER STORY; 3) MOSTLY TRUE; 4) ALL TRUE. I think that he was "leaning" on the COVER STORY "angle"... "there really was a treasure. but it was illegally acquired. Beale was FICTION and/or MORRISS'S tale was FICTION. Cipher No. 1 and No. 3 are pure GIBBERISH. The author or authors - the collaborating perpetrators - created the story to "launder" their treasure. In this case, the treasure has PROBABLY BEEN RETRIEVED", and the GAME is OVER. It is PROBABLY TOO LATE to recover the treasure." (pg. 164-165, Chapter 21: Fiction or Cover. OH WELL!

 

[Old Silver]

And THAT was what PV was doing in he book, THE BEALE TREASURE: NEW History of a MYSTERY; ALL kinds of POSSIBILITIES... NONE, PROBABLE?

But that all these things happened at the exact right time makes them probable, at least for me.

 

[mdog]

Something can not have already been found if you can not prove that it existed to start with. There are hundreds of piece facts out there that are real history but none of those pieces prove the story was not fiction or in fact if it happened at all.

I looked at the Beale legend while doing research for Randy Bradford's thread about Treasure Mountain, Colorado. An author named Maynard Adams wrote three books about Treasure Mountain. It seems that most of the information in his books was obtained from a series of articles, about Treasure Mountain, written in 1921 by Josiah Ward of the Denver Post. The three books covered three different time frames, 1799-1804 (the original mining expedition), 1844-1848 (the major recovery expedition) and 1885-1920 (continued recovery efforts). The first two expeditions occurred during periods of massive land transfers. Louisiana Purchase-1803, Texas Annexation-1845 and the end of the Mexican-American War-1848. In your first post, you wrote that the Beale legend took place between 1817-1822, this is about the time that Mexico became independent from Spain, 1821, which would have been another big transfer of land. Could it be that the Beale Treasure and the Treasure Mountain cache are the same and that the legends were used to show operations initiated during important land transfers?

 

[Rebel - KGC]

IMHO; COULD BE... dunno.

 

[mdog]

I don't know if these clips have been posted before, but, if they haven't been, here they are. These excerpts are from The Spanish Archives of New Mexico published in 1914.

Full text of "The Spanish Archives of New Mexico;"

2619 LUCERO, PABLO. Santa Fc, August 16, 1815.

To Governor interino Maynez, reporting departure of
three licensed parties; 1, for a buffalo hunt, the other 2,
for trade with the Comanches and Caiguas; expense ac-
count for entertaining Caiguas. A. L. S., with answer
August 20. If

2768 PERA, JUAN DE DIGS. Taos, November 4, 1818.

To Governor interino Melgares :

Reporting despatch of levy under Sarjento Manuel
Sanchez ; lack of good horses because of an unauthorized
buffalo-hunt, a reconnoitering expedition to the Caiguas '
country, etc. A. L. S. If

Mdog here, I don't know if this has anything to do with what you folks are looking for, but it seems that buffalo hunts, in Spanish territory, had to be authorized.

If this is old news, I'm sorry I took up the space.

 

[ECS]

Sudden wealth can come in many forms. First, Robert Morris you must remember he was kin to some of the richest families in America. Anyone of them could have extended him a loan or a gift. Paschal Buford was a man of many talents, he was Sheriff of Bedford County, he was into keeping a boarding house, owned hundreds of acres of land, was a Veteran of the War of 1812 and could have inherited thousands of acres more in land grants. All those people could have earned their money. Just like the Wright Family just because they became rich in Mexico does not mean they found a treasure before they left Virginia. First they would have had to exchange it into cash or lug 8,000 pounds of silver and gold to Mexico with them. All of these three are speculated to have something to do with the Beale Treasure as anyone can find trails of riches through KIngs and Queens, pirates such as Jean Lafitte and tie ends with other known treasures such as the KGC or CSA Treasury. All are speculated with no proof of legs to stand on, we need factorial proof and so far none has been found only speculation. So the Beale Treasure so far is speculation or fiction until we find a solid fact that ties them together.

Wasn't Robert Morris involved n the tobacco business?
He could have sold his interest in that to go into the hotel business in 1823.
In the Beale Papers, Morriss did not open the iron box until the 1840's.

 

[Old Silver]

Robert Morris' tobacco business failed before the Beale incident. And it was on the very day that Beale showed up at Morriss' place that Morriss' ad appeared in the newspaper, advertising the sale of his furniture. He was closing down his place. In about a week he printed the same ad with a retraction and stated he was letting everyone know that he was keeping open his house of entertainment. Morriss not only came into sudden wealth, but he did so at the exact time, according to the Beale story, when Beale showed up with the 2nd deposit. It was on this visit that Beale handed the Iron box over to Morriss.

 

[ECS]

But Morriss did not open the box until 10 years later.
Are you surmising that Beale fronted the money to Morriss?
That is not in the 1885 Beale Papers.

 

[Old Silver]

But Morriss did not open the box until 10 years later.
Are you surmising that Beale fronted the money to Morriss?
That is not in the 1885 Beale Papers.

I'm saying it's a great possibility. I'll even say it's likely, since it happened at the very time Beale was said to have arrived. It doesn't matter when Morriss opened the box. Beale, I think, either loaned or advanced money to Morriss. Remember, Beale made Morriss an equal partner, so an advancement against Morriss share is not at all difficult to believe.

 

[ECS]

It does not state that in he 1885 Beale Papers. That is your supposition.

 

[Old Silver]

It does not state that in he 1885 Beale Papers. That is your supposition.

The Beale papers state when Beale arrived, and the newspapers state the part about the furniture for sale, and then the retraction. That's the point, both things agree by their timeline.