Mines, Mines, and More Mines.

[bigscoop]

Where is all of this documented evidence from credible sources that confirms the existence of early Spanish and French mining operations in the region in question? Truth is, it doesn't exist, and with good reason.

Yes, there have been very isolated discoveries over the years of Spanish artifacts in the region but nothing to even suggest that the Spanish had operating mines in the region, and certainly nothing to suggest that these alleged mining operations were anything beyond very small exploratory operations. And the French? There is nothing credible to support all of these allegations at all other then the typical fairy tales that are often associated with treasure and treasure hunting.

Sure, if we travel hundreds of miles to the west or to the south we'll start to encounter more evidence of these operations but this isn't the further reaches of the region in question, not even close. So how is it that the stories of all of these fabled lost mines came into existence? In discovering this answer one needs look no further then the subject of man, his mind, and it's ability to manufacture and fabricate such tales. “If it existed hundreds of miles to the south and to the west then it certainly must have existed here as well.” And “Poof!”....just like that it suddenly comes into existence with every imagination and in every manner possible.

Consider this, per example of how man and his mind goes to work on this subject. The mid to late 1800's, or the mining boom that took place in the great American west. There are those who lay claim that since this mining boom took place and existed during this era then it must have also existed in the early 1800's as well, history apparently just forgetting to document these earlier events. No, actually, there's a sound reason why history never documented these fabricated events, this simply being because because they never took place in the region in question.

As humans we want to badly believe in the common man's ability to defy history and the elements, so much so that we'll even allow ourselves to accept the impossible despite the overwhelming factors and barriers that restrict its very existence. Somehow, someway, common man was able to overcome all of these historical, documented, and deciding and very real obstacles. Why? Because we badly want him to, that's why. This is why so many treasure legends and treasure stories still exist today, because we want them to and as such we keep finding new ways to keep them alive, if only in our wildest imaginations. The Beale treasure legend serves as prime example to a great deal of this, the vast majority of this tale just not being possible according to documented history and many factors and barriers of that era. Yet, this particular treasure story is perhaps more alive today then it has ever been. Go figure.

Truth is simply this, just as documented history details, there was no grand adventure out west and there was no mining operation that produced fantastical wealth in the way of gold and silver. On top of all of this documented mining history of the region, there is no possible way that said party could have kept their secret a secret while trading for jewels in Saint Louis, boarding at boarding houses with cargo in tow, and certainly not while on some steamer where every cargo is required to be inspected, logged, taxed, etc., etc. The only way that any of this is possible is “if” there were some very influential people involved who maintained the resources and connections for arranging such a transfer of an already acquired wealth well ahead of time. “PERIOD!”

And this isn't opinion, it's cold hard fact based on the documented facts and the very real limitations of the era.

 

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[Old Silver]

Where is all of this documented evidence from credible sources that confirms the existence of early Spanish and French mining operations in the region in question? Truth is, it doesn't exist, and with good reason.

Yes, there have been very isolated discoveries over the years of Spanish artifacts in the region but nothing to even suggest that the Spanish had operating mines in the region, and certainly nothing to suggest that these alleged mining operations were anything beyond very small exploratory operations. And the French? There is nothing credible to support all of these allegations at all other then the typical fairy tales that are often associated with treasure and treasure hunting.

Sure, if we travel hundreds of miles to the west or to the south we'll start to encounter more evidence of these operations but this isn't the further reaches of the region in question, not even close. So how is it that the stories of all of these fabled lost mines came into existence? In discovering this answer one needs look no further then the subject of man, his mind, and it's ability to manufacture and fabricate such tales. “If it existed hundreds of miles to the south and to the west then it certainly must have existed here as well.” And “Poof!”....just like that it suddenly comes into existence with every imagination and in every manner possible.

Consider this, per example of how man and his mind goes to work on this subject. The mid to late 1800's, or the mining boom that took place in the great American west. There are those who lay claim that since this mining boom took place and existed during this era then it must have also existed in the early 1800's as well, history apparently just forgetting to document these earlier events. No, actually, there's a sound reason why history never documented these fabricated events, this simply being because because they never took place in the region in question.

As humans we want to badly believe in the common man's ability to defy history and the elements, so much so that we'll even allow ourselves to accept the impossible despite the overwhelming factors and barriers that restrict its very existence. Somehow, someway, common man was able to overcome all of these historical, documented, and deciding and very real obstacles. Why? Because we badly want him to, that's why. This is why so many treasure legends and treasure stories still exist today, because we want them to and as such we keep finding new ways to keep them alive, if only in our wildest imaginations. The Beale treasure legend serves as prime example to a great deal of this, the vast majority of this tale just not being possible according to documented history and many factors and barriers of that era. Yet, this particular treasure story is perhaps more alive today then it has ever been. Go figure.

Truth is simply this, just as documented history details, there was no grand adventure out west and there was no mining operation that produced fantastical wealth in the way of gold and silver. On top of all of this documented mining history of the region, there is no possible way that said party could have kept their secret a secret while trading for jewels in Saint Louis, boarding at boarding houses with cargo in tow, and certainly not while on some steamer where every cargo is required to be inspected, logged, taxed, etc., etc. The only way that any of this is possible is “if” there were some very influential people involved who maintained the resources and connections for arranging such a transfer of an already acquired wealth well ahead of time. “PERIOD!”

And this isn't opinion, it's cold hard fact based on the documented facts and the very real limitations of the era.

What you're saying goes both ways. People find a way to believe, and people also find ways to doubt. That's why I keep saying there is no PROOF either way. I for one don't claim the Beale story is true as told. But when you say it's not possible, you are simply mistaken.

First of all, I have presented documented evidence of a mine being worked in the area, at least as early as 1823, and maybe even earlier. You say such never happened, but I have SHOWN that it did happen. This is not proof of the Beale expedition, but it is documented evidence of the mine being worked, in that area, at that time.

Also, I don't remember the Beale Papers stating the Beale mines to have been Spanish or French.

According to the story, the Beale party DIDN'T keep things secret. Beale sais someone found out about it. There would have been no way to keep such a thing 100% secret. Also the fact that the part was never heard from again is a pretty good clue that someone HAD found out, whether Indians, Spanish, claim jumpers...whoever.

 

[bigscoop]

Since the story originates from someone other then the author the Beale Papers fall in line with journalistic writing, this then permitting the publication to refrain from laying claim of factual or fiction. This also allows Ward, the agent, to legally refuse to reveal the narration's sources. And the fact that the publication clearly claims that the true author of the narration, or journalistic writing, has withdrawn his identity from the publication creates even further space against any accusations involving liability. So I think it's pretty clear that the publication does contain quite a bit of fabricated writing, the entire process clearly shielding itself from any persuadable liability charges. No grand adventure, no fantastical lost mining operation, just as the documented history and documented limitations of the era declares.

 

[bigscoop]

What you're saying goes both ways. People find a way to believe, and people also find ways to doubt. That's why I keep saying there is no PROOF either way. I for one don't claim the Beale story is true as told. But when you say it's not possible, you are simply mistaken.

First of all, I have presented documented evidence of a mine being worked in the area, at least as early as 1823, and maybe even earlier. You say such never happened, but I have SHOWN that it did happen. This is not proof of the Beale expedition, but it is documented evidence of the mine being worked, in that area, at that time.

Also, I don't remember the Beale Papers stating the Beale mines to have been Spanish or French.

According to the story, the Beale party DIDN'T keep things secret. Beale sais someone found out about it. There would have been no way to keep such a thing 100% secret. Also the fact that the part was never heard from again is a pretty good clue that someone HAD found out, whether Indians, Spanish, claim jumpers...whoever.

No, Beale never claims that anyone found out about the mine. Can you post that quote? No, because he never makes this claim in those alleged letters.

Pretty good indication that since the party was never heard from again that it was the author's choice not to have them heard from again.

PS: the only way you can still have such a fantastical lost treasure is if, well, something "imaginable" happened to the party and the author certainly took the time to plant those seeds, didn't he.

 

[Old Silver]

Since the story originates from someone other then the author the Beale Papers fall in line with journalistic writing, this then permitting the publication to refrain from laying claim of factual or fiction. This also allows Ward, the agent, to legally refuse to reveal the narration's sources. And the fact that the publication clearly claims that the true author of the narration, or journalistic writing, has withdrawn his identity from the publication creates even further space against any accusations involving liability. So I think it's pretty clear that the publication does contain quite a bit of fabricated writing, the entire process clearly shielding itself from any persuadable liability charges. No grand adventure, no fantastical lost mining operation, just as the documented history and documented limitations of the era declares.

You might be right about the BP, but I have shown evidence proving you wrong about the area in question.

 

[Old Silver]

No, Beale never claims that anyone found out about the mine. Can you post that quote? No, because he never makes this claim in those alleged letters.

Pretty good indication that since the party was never heard from again that it was the author's choice not to have them heard from again.

Oh but he did. I did post the quote on another thread.

Yes, that theory is one prevailing theory, and could be the right one. But it's not the only one, so...
Everything claiming to be THE WAY IT IS requires proof.

 

[Old Silver]

PS: the only way you can still have such a fantastical lost treasure is if, well, something "imaginable" happened to the party and the author certainly took the time to plant those seeds, didn't he.

No sir, that's not the only possible way.

 

[Old Silver]

Here is that quote:

"One recommended Santa Fé as the safest place to deposit it, while others objected, and advocated its shipment at once to the States, where it was ultimately bound to go, and where alone it would be safe. The idea seemed to prevail, and it was doubtless correct. that when outside parties ascertained, as they would do, that we kept nothing on hand to tempt their cupidity, our lives would be more secure than at present."

Notice he didn't say, "as the MIGHT do," or, "as they SOMETIMES do." He was speaking in future tense, "as they WOULD do," meaning they DID.

 

[bigscoop]

Here is that quote:

"One recommended Santa Fé as the safest place to deposit it, while others objected, and advocated its shipment at once to the States, where it was ultimately bound to go, and where alone it would be safe. The idea seemed to prevail, and it was doubtless correct. that when outside parties ascertained, as they would do, that we kept nothing on hand to tempt their cupidity, our lives would be more secure than at present."

Notice he didn't say, "as the MIGHT do," or, "as they SOMETIMES do." He was speaking in future tense, "as they WOULD do," meaning they DID.

"that when" outside parties ascertained,...... Expecting it isn't the same as it actually happening, "when" being the keyword here. All he is suggesting with "as they would do" is that they would discover that the party kept nothing on hand. Nowhere does he state that their activities had been discovered, he is just anticipating that they could be. More seeding of that imaginable and terrible fate awaiting them.

 

[bigscoop]

Here's another problem that all of these alleged and various, Spanish, French, and American lost mining operations in the region during the era, they just keep boxing themselves in to the more obvious.

“The border was constantly changing due to changes in ownership.” You see, we bought the Louisiana territory from the French, not the Spanish. So by suggesting that Spain had lost mines in the region then this is also to suggest that they were mining in French territory prior to the US purchase. On the other hand, if one decides to declare that these lost Spanish mines were west of the purchase border then this places Beale and his party in Spanish territory, and not US territory. You see, even if one desires to keep the tale east of the purchase border then no old lost Spanish mines can come into play at all “unless these alleged lost mines were in that small area of Colorado that the US gained during the Adams Onis Treaty", this pushing the old border further west. So mines, mines, and more old lost mines, for the most part, is just a lot of treasure hunter nonsense.

 

[Old Silver]

I expected you to contend the statement. He said, THAT WHEN... then he said AS THEY WOULD DO. That means they did. Give it some thought. He didn't say as expected they would do, he said as they would do.
Yes, WHEN. In context it means when they DID find out, the party's lives were less safe, which is why they moved the treasure to VA. Not COULD BE, but WOULD do. Keep reading it.

 

[Old Silver]

Here's another problem that all of these alleged and various, Spanish, French, and American lost mining operations in the region during the era, they just keep boxing themselves in to the more obvious.

“The border was constantly changing due to changes in ownership.” You see, we bought the Louisiana territory from the French, not the Spanish. So by suggesting that Spain had lost mines in the region then this is also to suggest that they were mining in French territory prior to the US purchase. On the other hand, if one decides to declare that these lost Spanish mines were west of the purchase border then this places Beale and his party in Spanish territory, and not US territory. You see, even if one desires to keep the tale east of the purchase border then no old lost Spanish mines can come into play at all “unless these alleged lost mines were in that small area of Colorado that the US gained during the Adams Onis Treaty", this pushing the old border further west. So mines, mines, and more old lost mines, for the most part, is just a lot of treasure hunter nonsense.

Again I ask, where does the Beale Papers say anything about Spanish or French mines?

 

[bigscoop]

Billions of dollars have been spent over the years in search of mineral wealth in the region. Thousands and thousands of people have trampled the territory to death over the years in search of this mineral wealth. Now just how many lucrative mining operations have you researched in the region who make the claim, "our mining operation is on the site of an old lost mining operation?" None. It's nearly always the same thing, "when gold/silver was discovered by John Doe in whatever year he discovered it." Not a single lucrative mining operation in the region laying the claim, "at the site of an old lost mining operation." Enough said.

 

[Old Silver]

Billions of dollars have been spent over the years in search of mineral wealth in the region. Thousands and thousands of people have trampled the territory to death over the years in search of this mineral wealth. Now just how many lucrative mining operations have you researched in the region who make the claim, "our mining operation is on the site of an old lost mining operation?" None. It's nearly always the same thing, "when gold/silver was discovered by John Doe in whatever year he discovered it." Not a single lucrative mining operation in the region laying the claim, "at the site of an old lost mining operation." Enough said.

I gave you one. But, as always, you give "your reasons" why it can't be. Never mind that it's documented evidence.
You sound as if you don't think there were any lucrative mines in that area. I think you have to know better.

 

[ECS]

Since the story originates from someone other then the author the Beale Papers fall in line with journalistic writing, this then permitting the publication to refrain from laying claim of factual or fiction. This also allows Ward, the agent, to legally refuse to reveal the narration's sources. And the fact that the publication clearly claims that the true author of the narration, or journalistic writing, has withdrawn his identity from the publication creates even further space against any accusations involving liability. So I think it's pretty clear that the publication does contain quite a bit of fabricated writing, the entire process clearly shielding itself from any persuadable liability charges. No grand adventure, no fantastical lost mining operation, just as the documented history and documented limitations of the era declares.

Also the descendant families of Witcher, Coles, and Clay strongly objected to their ancestors names being used in a dime novel.
It has been mention that the reason Ward did not have additional copies printed was to avoid legal action from these families.

 

[Old Silver]

Also the descendant families of Witcher, Coles, and Clay strongly objected to their ancestors names being used in a dime novel.
It has been mention that the reason Ward did not have additional copies printed was to avoid legal action from these families.

Did those families have proof that it was a dime novel, or was it just their opinion? Even if the Beale story is not true, one thing it is NOT is a novel of any kind.

 

[bigscoop]

I gave you one. But, as always, you give "your reasons" why it can't be. Never mind that it's documented evidence.
You sound as if you don't think there were any lucrative mines in that area. I think you have to know better.

No. You have not given me one, not at all. "A Lucrative mining operation in the years 1817-1821 in the region described in the Beale narration." If you gave it to me then I must have missed it. Not interested in anything after 1821, don't care as it simply doesn't support anything in the alleged Beale party adventure. As far as we know Beale and his alleged party never even made it out west again after the last deposit date of 1821. It's only by the author's suggestion that folks want to believe something imaginably terrible happened to the party. So 1817-1821, that's all that can count.

 

[Old Silver]

No. You have not given me one, not at all. "A Lucrative mining operation in the years 1817-1821 in the region described in the Beale narration." If you gave it to me then I must have missed it. Not interested in anything after 1821, don't care as it simply doesn't support anything in the alleged Beale party adventure. As far as we know Beale and his alleged party never even made it out west again after the last deposit date of 1821. It's only by the author's suggestion that folks want to believe something imaginably terrible happened to the party. So 1817-1821, that's all that can count.

Well, since you missed it, I'll let someone else try to explain it to you. It's all there.

 

[bigscoop]

Also the descendant families of Witcher, Coles, and Clay strongly objected to their ancestors names being used in a dime novel.
It has been mention that the reason Ward did not have additional copies printed was to avoid legal action from these families.

I would have to see an actual document regarding the descendants "at time of publication" strongly objected to their ancestors names being used. You know how I am about that whole local lore thing, etc. No doubt some of them might object today as it's simply becoming a pain in the A$$ so we can't count these modern folks.

 

[bigscoop]

Well, since you missed it, I'll let someone else try to explain it to you. It's all there.

I think you badly want it to be there.