Evidence That The Narration Might Be More Then Just Fiction

[bigscoop]

The thought occurred to me today that these forums lack a thread that should be here, so, here it is.
In this thread let's list all of the “suggestive evidence” that supports the notion that there be something more to the Beale narration then that of just a simple fictional writing. The only restricted types of evidence are cipher solutions as these are too subjective to personal desires and creation and they do not represent recorded evidence outside of the Beale narration. Here, I'll even start things off....



(Let us not squabble the information listed, but rather let's just list what we think may be evidence that the Beale narration might be something more then just a fictional writing.)


The chronological order of the date of deposits when compared to the signing and ratification dates of the Adams Onis Treaty and Beale's alleged visits with Morriss.

The existence of a Thomas J. Beale in Richmond, Virginia, just one year prior to the pamphlet's publication date.

“Mexico” Sherman, (John Sherman's uncle), and a man who was directly connected with Galveston Island and Champ D'Asile in Texas, this in conjunction with the reference of a “Mr. Sherman” in connection with a shipment of gold from that region that is recorded in yet another questionable writing. This alleged shipment of gold also falling in perfect line with the chronological order mentioned above.

These are just off the top of my head......

 

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[Cryptography]

The thought occurred to me today that these forums lack a thread that should be here, so, here it is.
In this thread let's list all of the “suggestive evidence” that supports the notion that there be something more to the Beale narration then that of just a simple fictional writing. The only restricted types of evidence are cipher solutions as these are too subjective to personal desires and creation and they do not represent recorded evidence outside of the Beale narration. Here, I'll even start things off....



(Let us not squabble the information listed, but rather let's just list what we think may be evidence that the Beale narration might be something more then just a fictional writing.)


The chronological order of the date of deposits when compared to the signing and ratification dates of the Adams Onis Treaty and Beale's alleged visits with Morriss.

The existence of a Thomas J. Beale in Richmond, Virginia, just one year prior to the pamphlet's publication date.

“Mexico” Sherman, (John Sherman's uncle), and a man who was directly connected with Galveston Island and Champ D'Asile in Texas, this in conjunction with the reference of a “Mr. Sherman” in connection with a shipment of gold from that region that is recorded in yet another questionable writing. This alleged shipment of gold also falling in perfect line with the chronological order mentioned above.

These are just off the top of my head......

You have expanded your time lines here to include 1820-1885. Need to keep within the given timeline given by the Beale papers, 1817-1822.

 

[bigscoop]

You have expanded your time lines here to include 1820-1885. Need to keep within the given timeline given by the Beale papers, 1817-1822.

....not going to correct you, yet again, but you've just shown how little research you actually do and how narrow your line of research is and has been. The chronological orders referenced are "exactly" within the 1817-1822 Beale narration era. The 1884 reference to the only known Thomas J. Beale, (of Richmond), is relevant not only to the publication date of the pamphlet but also as being the only verified Thomas J. Beale of record of the entire Beale mystery era, 1817-1885. Like I said in my first post, let's not squabble, but if you must start squabbling then at least have some knowledge as to what you're squabbling about.

In The Beale Pamphlet Morriss claims that Beale’s two visits at his hotel took place on January 1820 and January
1822. Both of these dates fall only eleven months behind the dates of the signing and the ratification of the Adams Onis
Treaty.

Treaty signing date: February 1819
Beale’s first visit: January 1820
11 months
Treaty’s Rat. Date: February 1821
Beale’s second visit: January 1822
11 months

Going a step further it’s interesting to note that both deposit dates fall closely in order between the dates in the above
table, nine and ten months respectively.

Treaty signing date: February 1819
(9 months)
First Deposit date: November 1819
(2 months)
Beale’s first visit: January 1820
11 months
Treaty’s Rat. Date: February 1821
(10 months)
Second Deposit date: December 1821
(1 month)
Beale’s second visit: January 1822
11 months

Jean Laffite was exiled from Galveston on February 25th, 1821, four days past the treaty’s ratification date and ten
months prior to the last Beale deposit date. Given that Laffite was aware of the rising treaty issue, then using the dates
he provides us, we can now assemble a possible timetable as follows;

First shipment leaves Galveston in: November, 1818.
(3 months)
Adams Onis Treaty is signed in: February, 1819.
(0 months)
Second shipment leaves Galveston in: February, 1819.
(9 months)
First secret deposit is then made from warehouses in: November, 1819.
(15 months)
Treaty is ratified into law in: February, 1821.
(0 months)
Laffite is exiled from Galveston just days later on: February, 25th, 1821.
(10 months)
Second and last Beale deposit is made in: December, 1821.

 

[ECS]

Bigscoop, this has been covered by you many times on this thread, and, as with all the other theories floated, nothing can be directly connected to Ward's 1885 Beale Papers.

Now, Yall are aware of my "all in the family Risqué bloodline" connections.
Now for those Adams-Onis Treaty dates you've mentioned compared to the Beale Papers dates.
James Beverly Risqué, who served as a guard to Andrew Jackson, knew of those dates, and petition Jackson for a position in Florida, even hosted a banquet in Lynchburg for Jackson (the letter was posted on another thread) which Pascal Buford also attended along with Thomas Jefferson at whose home Jackson stayed, but Risqué never received that position.
It is to be noted that James Beverly Ward inherited grandfather Risque's library and papers.
One of many "connexions".

 

[bigscoop]

Apparently, the desire to squabble now resides under the skin of many. Look, fellas, it doesn't matter if you agree or disagree with what has been posted in this thread. The point was simply to let people post that "suggestive evidence" that the story may hold some measure of truth. Posting evidence in regards to the narration being only a fiction tale, or the squabbling over what suggestive evidence folks post in this thread, is off topic. Please just try to restrain those squabbling desires and let's just see what gets posted. Put aside past conflicts and differences and simply post, observe, and take it all in. How difficult is this?

 

[Rebel - KGC]

Heh... VERY difficult. Setting up "The BOX" (parameter) for an OLD Beale "paradigm"... which CAN NOT be proven.

 

[bigscoop]

Heh... VERY difficult. Setting up "The BOX" (parameter) for an OLD Beale "paradigm"... which CAN NOT be proven.

Pretty simple, just post any "suggestive evidence" that you feel offers good enough reason to still keep the door open on this slow dying mystery. Sure, "suggestive evidence" is pretty broad, so kist go with what you feel are the strongest pieces, if any.

 

[bigscoop]

Here's something else that I'm still curious about that "could" offer some measure of truth in the narration:

When we look at the years leading up to 1817 and then the period 1817 — 1821, there was “a lot” of politics going on in regards to the forming of this country by way of treaties. Given this, it is possible that some type of deal was cut somewhere along the line that involved timely payments.


As for the wealth coming overland, this might actually have been the better of two evils VS circumnavigating all of South America and the Gulf, especially if such a shipmet of wealth was suspected by enemy elements. So while it isn't a likely scenario, it is a possible scenario.


Now as to what all of these dealings might have been, exactly, I can't say, but I can say that it wouldn't be the first time that favorable outcome was purchased in such a way.


Now then, an “unintelligible” and “missing piece of paper”....this pretty much eliminating any intelligible form of text, this still remaining as a curious factor to me if the author really wanted folks to sit about playing a parlor game. Seems to me he would have wanted folks to proceed to attempt to solve his presented ciphers with whatever form of text they could get their hands on. Seems most unlikely to me that he would deliver them a near complete defeat even before they got started.


So all of this still remains as possibilities that “could” bring about some measure of possible truth to the tell, my reasons for still holding these possibilitoes already explained in several post in these forums so I'm just posting these additional personal reasons that I feel “could” offer some measure of truth in the narration.

 

[bigscoop]

Don't be shy fellas, no squabbling or debating here, this can all be done in other threads. So here's another curiosity that I keep open mind to:

Thomas J. Beale of Richmond. While we do not have exact I.D. on his parents we do know that he was a man of color and that this term can be applied broadly throughout the era. I find it odd that the description of the narration's Thomas J. Beale is that of a possible man of color, especially since the later Thomas J. Beale of Richmond still survives as the only verifiable Thomas J. Beale of record during the entire narration's history and publication. So here again, something else that “could” lend some measure of truth to the tale. Odd too that in the opening paragraphs of the narration we are asked to make the "connexions"...this being presented in French creole which was generally consistent in the New Orleans regions, this being where the Thomas Beale of duel fame relocated years before. Odd too that this same word, "connections" is used again later in the narration with the correct American spelling.

 

[ECS]

Richmond's Jackson Ward Alderman Thomas J Beale of whom you refer, was born a freeman of color in 1823 in Richmond, Virginia, so he could not be the Beale who visited Morriss in the story.
Perhaps the author who wanted to remain unknown saw a newspaper article about Richmond's politicians in 1884 and appropriated the "J" to separate his Beale character from the Thomas Beale who fought that duel with Ward's grandfather.

One thing we all can agree upon is that the Beale Papers were well composed with enough ambiguous references, be it the names, places, or dates, to make the story narrative believable, yet after 130 years no collaboration outside of the job pamphlet has ever been produced that proves any part of the Beale Papers to be true, except for Max Guggenheimer owning Morriss home during the 1885 publication of the Beale Papers- and Guggenheimer sold copies of the job pamphlet at his Lynchburg store.

 

[Rebel - KGC]

Still in the "BOX" of 1817-1821, eh...? Throw out Alderman Thomas J. Beale, then...

 

[TN_Guest1523]

....not going to correct you, yet again, but you've just shown how little research you actually do and how narrow your line of research is and has been. The chronological orders referenced are "exactly" within the 1817-1822 Beale narration era. The 1884 reference to the only known Thomas J. Beale, (of Richmond), is relevant not only to the publication date of the pamphlet but also as being the only verified Thomas J. Beale of record of the entire Beale mystery era, 1817-1885. Like I said in my first post, let's not squabble, but if you must start squabbling then at least have some knowledge as to what you're squabbling about.

In The Beale Pamphlet Morriss claims that Beale’s two visits at his hotel took place on January 1820 and January
1822. Both of these dates fall only eleven months behind the dates of the signing and the ratification of the Adams Onis
Treaty.

Treaty signing date: February 1819
Beale’s first visit: January 1820
11 months
Treaty’s Rat. Date: February 1821
Beale’s second visit: January 1822
11 months

Going a step further it’s interesting to note that both deposit dates fall closely in order between the dates in the above
table, nine and ten months respectively.

Treaty signing date: February 1819
(9 months)
First Deposit date: November 1819
(2 months)
Beale’s first visit: January 1820
11 months
Treaty’s Rat. Date: February 1821
(10 months)
Second Deposit date: December 1821
(1 month)
Beale’s second visit: January 1822
11 months

Jean Laffite was exiled from Galveston on February 25th, 1821, four days past the treaty’s ratification date and ten
months prior to the last Beale deposit date. Given that Laffite was aware of the rising treaty issue, then using the dates
he provides us, we can now assemble a possible timetable as follows;

First shipment leaves Galveston in: November, 1818.
(3 months)
Adams Onis Treaty is signed in: February, 1819.
(0 months)
Second shipment leaves Galveston in: February, 1819.
(9 months)
First secret deposit is then made from warehouses in: November, 1819.
(15 months)
Treaty is ratified into law in: February, 1821.
(0 months)
Laffite is exiled from Galveston just days later on: February, 25th, 1821.
(10 months)
Second and last Beale deposit is made in: December, 1821.

In 1819-1820 there was a man born Thomas J Beales who died in New Orleans 04/16/1869, Not know to many people for his grave was in Giord st cemetery, now the mall next to the supper dome . I have been looking for this document for some time now and have finished up my research on it . There is no Thomas Beale other than this in the only Protestant cemetery at the time 1820> in New Orleans .

If you are researching the John Lafitte link to this, The Beale Papers have fun for there are a lot of facts that line up with the John/Beale connection .

 

[bigscoop]

I'm just posting pieces of "suggestive evidence" that still allow me to keep the door open on the Beale mystery. It can all be debated in other threads, but in this thread simply post any suggestive evidence that still allows you to leave the door open to the possibility that the narration may have been more then just fiction. That's it, no squabbling, jabbing, poking, countering or debating, etc.,........
I can do it. Can you?Don't be shy. Anyone else?

 

[Rebel - KGC]

If you say so...

 

[ECS]

In 1819-1820 there was a man born Thomas J Beales who died in New Orleans 04/16/1869, Not know to many people for his grave was in Giord st cemetery, now the mall next to the supper dome . I have been looking for this document for some time now and have finished up my research on it . There is no Thomas Beale other than this in the only Protestant cemetery at the time 1820> in New Orleans ...

http://old-new-orleans.com/NO_Girod_Cemetary.html
The Girod Street Cemetary has both white and African-Americans and all the remains were relocated in 1957.

 

[TN_Guest1523]

http://old-new-orleans.com/NO_Girod_Cemetary.html
The Girod Street Cemetary has both white and African-Americans and all the remains were relocated in 1957.

The list I have was from 1930's There were some interesting people there . Most folks from Louisianan are Catholic . If you were not Catholic or your spouse was not Catholic you were put there . If you or your spouse was Catholic you were in St Louis 1-3 .