Blowing The Cast Iron Lids Off Of Beale

[franklin]

So tell us, can you prove that Laflin didn't write the Memoirs of Jean Lafitte or those other diaries that he sold?
Better still, can you prove that the "Thomas J Beale" character of the 1885 Beale Papers is the Thomas Beale of New Orleans?

I can prove positively that Thomas Beale of New Orleans was not the Thomas J. Beale of the 1885 Beale Papers. There were other Thomas J. Beale's and everyone that I have seen the "J" stood for Jordan not Jefferson. I am taking a vacation. Nothing to look for here. You two carry on I will catch up later. I have the feeling you will still be at the same location looking over the signs and trying to find a new direction.

 

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[ECS]

Pierre Laffite knew Grande Pre from his time in west Florida, and there is absolutely no doubt that the Laffites knew the Beales well, very well, in fact. Wouldn't it be something if a Thomas Beale had even married a Grande Pre.....no wait a minute......that did happen. It's all there if you use what I've posted and you put on the thinking caps to see where it all might lead...

Brad Andrews on the Lafitte forged memoirs and Beale Papers from THE FIFTH GENERATION:
" I can only testify that if the memoirs are indeed real, then it is also by strong evidence, and MY PERSONAL SPECULATION, that these memoirs are somehow intertwined with the story in the Beale Pamphlet...after long study of both books, I now carry the STRONG NOTION that Thomas Jefferson Beale and Jean Lafitte were indeed the same man".
Bigscoop, with your constant references to Laflin's forged work as a source and all the references to Lafitte, Galveston, New Orleans, the slave trade, etc, are you attempting to prove that Beale and Lafitte are one and the same?

 

[Rebel - KGC]

Brad Andrews on the Lafitte forged memoirs and Beale Papers from THE FIFTH GENERATION:
" I can only testify that if the memoirs are indeed real, then it is also by strong evidence, and MY PERSONAL SPECULATION, that these memoirs are somehow intertwined with the story in the Beale Pamphlet...after long study of both books, I now carry the STRONG NOTION that Thomas Jefferson Beale and Jean Lafitte were indeed the same man".
Bigscoop, with your constant references to Laflin's forged work as a source and all the references to Lafitte, Galveston, New Orleans, the slave trade, etc, are you attempting to prove that Beale and Lafitte are one and the same?

I have also "studied" the Lafitte Bros (ALL 3 of 'em); R & I indicated that BOTH Jean & Pierre were double-agents; with assigned numbers, MAINLY for Spain. BOTH Pierre & You were FreeMasons, Jean was not... BUT! Jean was a SEPHARDIC JEW... via his Grandmother. Jean "stayed at home" while Pierre traveled to South Carolina, Richmond, Va. & even Philly, Pa., where he was SECRETARY of his FreeMason's "Blue Lodge". If it was ANYBODY, I would "bet" on Pierre, being TJB... heh. BTW, You is "buried' in a Crypt in the French Quarter "graveyard". Seen "pic" of his site... has OLD Masonic Square & Compass on "door".

 

[bigscoop]

Look some of those interested in the topic of this thread just aren't getting what is being explained, while some on the other hand are. For the most part those who are not getting it simply don't want to as these folks will never entertain anything outside of their own personal romances. So for the purpose of adding a little more clarity for those who are getting it let me explain some more of those complications and circumstances that existed in the association's move to Galveston Island.


South America and Mexico were both Spanish territories under revolt by various “recognized rebel forms of governments” Without this the move to Galveston Island could have never worked and here's why. This all goes back to the questionable letters of marque that those doing business at Galveston Island often produced, for without these letters of marque the operations at Galveston Island could not have been undertaken by any other means then straight out piracy. However, with these questionable letters of marque this Galveston enterprise was at least operating under a very gray and uncertain veil. This is another reason for that April 15[SUP]th[/SUP], 1817 meeting in which things were reorganized, new officers named, and minutes kept.


You see it worked like this, in order to issue legal letters of marque the issuer had to be commissioned by “a recognized form of government” rebel or otherwise. In other words, and using Mexico as example, if “the republic of Mexico had a dozen recognized rebel forms of government” then any one of them could legally issue letters of marque, this being the exact reason why the interest at Galveston Island immediately set out to make contact with these different entities. It didn't matter, and actually even served their purposes better, that these loosely formed entities were constantly seeing changes in their leadership, or even entire reorganizations. This existing element only adding to the confusion and uncertainty whenever an alleged letter of marque was brought into scrutiny, at the better for the privateers as long as it prevented the authorities from being able to pass certain judgment, which it did.


Also, operating in this gray provided them the option of forming their own island form of Government that they could in turn claim to be an extension of those recognized rebel governments, which in turn allowed them to form their own admiralty court so that all of the contraband entering their port could be determined to be legal plunder. Once this was in place these privateers could then take their plunder into US ports and sell it legally, even if they had to pay taxes as they were getting their merchandise free and could still sell their merchandise a lot cheaper then their competitors who had to buy their products. Also, while they still dealt in slaves and other merchandise, just like always, they did make a concerted effort to start targeting vessels carrying spice and hard currency, which they succeeded in doing. (And no, none of this is from the memoirs, it's all from documented sources.)


So this is what I'm talking about when I reference the complicated nature of this beast, the many different interest involved creating a pool of different opportunities and schemes that were being acted upon by these, “opportunist”, one opportunity leading to another and a lot of required tolerance in between.


Now here's something else you may find interesting as it echoes the statements made in the Beale narration, banks were not trusted and were never used, the cash assets of this enterprise always being maintained in account with associate merchants and associate business people. It was only later that bank notes were finally accepted but these were only accepted at certain sales that contained third party merchandise and these banks notes then transferred to these same “associates” just as with the cash. At Galveston Island all merchandise was passed through their admiralty court and a certain portion of it unloaded there and taken to markets by overland routes, other merchandise remained on the ship so it could be transported to its intended destinations, some of these destinations even being along the east coast, including places like Charleston, Norfolk, and even New York, Philly, ect.
This was a huge enterprise, indeed, Galveston Island at the very heart of it all.

 

[releventchair]

And....Galveston is a great example of how an operation can be run in multiple areas and across multiple cultures, to a mutual benefit for multiple groups , yet of greatest benefit to one.
No guarantee of success though .......some one , or some group has to face the risk of start up funds and management costs as well as the national and international consequences of laws and treaties and grievances; all of which came into play in U.S. acquisitions of the territories of others...more than once.

 

[bigscoop]

And....Galveston is a great example of how an operation can be run in multiple areas and across multiple cultures, to a mutual benefit for multiple groups , yet of greatest benefit to one.
No guarantee of success though .......some one , or some group has to face the risk of start up funds and management costs as well as the national and international consequences of laws and treaties and grievances; all of which came into play in U.S. acquisitions of the territories of others...more than once.

It was complicated, very complex, and it served many different interest, all the prior being influenced by each.

 

[bigscoop]

I can prove positively that Thomas Beale of New Orleans was not the Thomas J. Beale of the 1885 Beale Papers. There were other Thomas J. Beale's and everyone that I have seen the "J" stood for Jordan not Jefferson. I am taking a vacation. Nothing to look for here. You two carry on I will catch up later. I have the feeling you will still be at the same location looking over the signs and trying to find a new direction.

"Jordon" has been referenced already...but there were more then one.

 

[bigscoop]

Brad Andrews on the Lafitte forged memoirs and Beale Papers from THE FIFTH GENERATION:
" I can only testify that if the memoirs are indeed real, then it is also by strong evidence, and MY PERSONAL SPECULATION, that these memoirs are somehow intertwined with the story in the Beale Pamphlet...after long study of both books, I now carry the STRONG NOTION that Thomas Jefferson Beale and Jean Lafitte were indeed the same man".
Bigscoop, with your constant references to Laflin's forged work as a source and all the references to Lafitte, Galveston, New Orleans, the slave trade, etc, are you attempting to prove that Beale and Lafitte are one and the same?

.......you're so lost and desperate in the topic of this thread. How old was this Fifth Generation Piece? Look ECS, just do yourself a favor and actually dive into all of this for yourself instead of having to resort to old and outdated sources and the opinions of others. Until you do this you're just that duck with broken wing and leg trying to fly while attempting to paddle in straight line across the pond.

And yet once again, (actually several times this time) since it just isn't sinking in;
"I don't care who penned the memoirs, all I care about is the accuracy of the information within."
"I don't care who penned the memoirs, all I care about is the accuracy of the information within."
"I don't care who penned the memoirs, all I care about is the accuracy of the information within."
"I don't care who penned the memoirs, all I care about is the accuracy of the information within."
"I don't care who penned the memoirs, all I care about is the accuracy of the information within."
"I don't care who penned the memoirs, all I care about is the accuracy of the information within."

Now can't absorb this then I don't what to tell you.

 

[releventchair]

It was complicated, very complex, and it served many different interest, all the prior being influenced by each.

Reflected in other puzzles besides the Beale papers.
Other pursuits of historical documents or items ,or alleged record /items appearing/disappearing , being relocated , diversions thrown in for good measure and articles written reflecting the event tones of a given time.
Stumbling blocks abound and sorting truth from fiction , when claimed events parallel events at the time ,it gets tricky.

 

[bigscoop]

Reflected in other puzzles besides the Beale papers.
Other pursuits of historical documents or items ,or alleged record /items appearing/disappearing , being relocated , diversions thrown in for good measure and articles written reflecting the event tones of a given time.
Stumbling blocks abound and sorting truth from fiction , when claimed events parallel events at the time ,it gets tricky.

The accuracy of memoirs have often been the subject of this theory, even by those who know little in regards to the measure of accuracy being referenced. Per example, in the memoirs the author makes a few curious references to those untrustworthy men of Virginia who were only looking to profit from the plunder of the Laffite stores, even going as far as to single out General Coffee and his volunteers, a rather interesting list of men, indeed. Anyway, it took me several years before I discovered the source of these references, this going back to the days before the battle of New Orleans and an event when Coffee tried to sway Jackson to let he and his men search for the still missing Laffite brothers and the "$200'000" they allegedly still had stashed away after Patterson's raid, a raid that netted nearly another $200'000 worth of merchandise. Discovering the true nature of the comments in the memoirs regarding this matter proves two things, first it proves that Coffee had intelligence in New Orleans, which might have just been the Beales, and second, it's just another example of the many curious and little known accuracies in the memoirs. These are just some of the details that are well worth "some folks" time to investigate. I can't make them do it but if they do they might just discover a lot of interesting and potential connections there.

 

[ECS]

...
So this is what I'm talking about when I reference the complicated nature of this beast, the many different interest involved creating a pool of different opportunities and schemes that were being acted upon by these, “opportunist”, one opportunity leading to another and a lot of required tolerance in between.

Now here's something else you may find interesting as it echoes the statements made in the Beale narration, banks were not trusted and were never used, the cash assets of this enterprise always being maintained in account with associate merchants and associate business people...

Now how does any of this echo the statements made in the Beale narration?
The buffalo hunt?
The stay at Morriss's and Buford's?
The 2nd year of the Confederate War?
It seems that these echos are only heard by you.
"Which might have been the Beales", with a statement that vague, you question the Risqué bloodline connection to the Beale Papers?

 

[ECS]

....you're so lost and desperate in the topic of this thread. How old was this Fifth Generation Piece? Look ECS, just do yourself a favor and actually dive into all of this for yourself instead of having to resort to old and outdated sources and the opinions of others...

And yet once again, (actually several times this time) since it just isn't sinking in;
"I don't care who penned the memoirs, all I care about is the accuracy of the information within." ...
Now can't absorb this then I don't what to tell you.

I have absorbed the fact that as long as you can utilize any source to fit you pet theory, be it a forged memoir, a travel guide, a document that really states nothing about the Beale story, you really don't care too much for the accuracy either as you have proven time and again.
THE FIFTH GENERATION may have been written a time ago, but it does appear you are reworking this information to create a new pet theory involving Jean Laffite based on that highly suspect memoir product of John Andrechyne Laflin.
You keep claiming the accuracy of this work, please tell us how you have this knowledge, especially the entries dated after 1823.
Instead of constantly posting about what I don't know, why don't you reveal the smoking gun bombshell connection to the real Beale story and how it is connected to Morriss , Ward, and the version in the 1885 Beale Papers.
That is all I and others here have been asking of you, but for reasons known only to you, you go on the defensive.
Either you have this solid evidence, or it is just more personal speculation as Brad Andrews referenced in his FIFTH GENERATION.

 

[ECS]

So do you have any documents to verify or is all this just your speculation and you are saying the historians are wrong? Well I say prove it.

That is what we all request of you, Bigscoop.
The evidence of the smoking gun bombshell you claim to have, not a continuation of the rambling reworked speculation that you graced us with for the last several years.

 

[bigscoop]

That is what we all request of you, Bigscoop.
The evidence of the smoking gun bombshell you claim to have, not a continuation of the rambling reworked speculation that you graced us with for the last several years.

This is how real progress is made, by the continued research and discovery and building upon that knowledge continually gained. You should try it for yourself.

As for the information in those memoirs, a subject you're just not getting at all, and a subject quite relevant to the statement above, "I don't care if you wrote those memoirs only yesterday as long as the information within those pages proves to be accurate upon PERSONAL follow up and investigation." Again, you should try this as it is typical routine and required process. Simply relying on the works of others and applying the opinions of others isn't going to expose anyone to the real reasons for those works and opinions and conclusions, and quite often, "those interpretations." I'm sure in your own genealogy research you don't simply depend on the works and opinions and conclusions of others and that you actually track down for yourself all of the required materials that allow for these various conclusions and opinions, because as we both know, there exist a lot of speculation and uncertainty and inaccuracies in many gemological opinions, conclusions, etc. It ain't easy or quick but it is required a great deal of the time if you want to try to remain as accurate as possible.

 

[bigscoop]

It's complicated, very complicated....and that's been my issue with trying to detail all of it. However, these deposits arrive in perfect chronological order to the signing and ratification dates of the Adams Onis Treaty, both coming about 10 months after the treaty's signing and then again 10 months after the treaty's ratification. Prior to their relocating to Galveston Island Richard Rush planted the seeds that the United States could use the privateers and their activities against Spain, in other words suggesting that if the United states pardoned these men, which they did, then the United States could turn a blind eye on their looting of Spanish commerce as this would only further to weaken Spain during those same treaty negotiations, the same being said of the refugees and filibusters that were also applying the pressure in Texas. So the United states was silently supporting all of these enterprises. This what made everything possible, these other interest such as the filibusters and refugee camp and those of Galveston Island taking that same opportunity to form their own separate schemes and enterprises.

There was "a lot" of wealth pouring into Galveston Island, this including slaves and an abundance of merchandise, this also including "gold and silver and jewels." In one documented account "the courts" returned to Laffite "16 plates of gold" as part of his long battled court case for the return of his possessions that Patterson had earlier confiscated, so with this we know that the Laffite's kept gold and silver and jewels stashed away at their bases of operation, and this was just part of a single cargo that was deemed legal property and belonging to the Laffite. So there can no longer be any debates that large quantities of gold and silver and jewels were being stored at these bases of operation, this most certainly including the base at Galveston Island.

In the memoirs we learn of two such stores, both of these disappearing in that same perfect chronological order with the dates of the Beale deposits and the signing and ratification dates of the same treaty, and in fact, the memoirs go on to claim that the last distribution was to be, "distributed to the indicated places as promised." While making this claim the author also references a Mr. Sherman. Records indicate that Mathew Mexico Sherman, the uncle of John Sherman and editor of the press that published the Beale narration, was captain of the ship, Torpedo, a ship that frequently sailed to South America and on at least one occasion conducted business at Galveston Island. This ship was owned by a man named Patterson, a shipping tycoon who held personal relationship to George Graham, both of these men being important players in the First Bank of America. Ironically, the first Beale deposit comes directly on the heals of George Graham's visit and "secret mission" to Galveston Island. So when the memoirs reference that "they stick to their promise and distribute the gold to the indicated places" then who was this promise made to? Well, this second deposit of wealth from Galveston Island came on the heals of the USS Enterprise's visit to Galveston Island. In both cases officials of the United States entertained at Galveston island prior to both deposit dates.

In article "3" related to that April 15th 1817 meeting at Galveston Island it is clearly stated that only those of the Galveston Island enterprise who were part of the original agreement prior to this date would enjoy the full benefits of that prior arrangement. So with all of this I can only assume this to mean, "those who are likely listed in C3." From 1817 to 1821 I can hardly think of another "perilous enterprise" that was taking place anywhere in the country and the shear amount of mounting coincidences and facts pretty much certifies that they are not coincidences at all.

How did both author's know about all of this, some of these details/materials in their time being widely scattered and often confined to private paper collections and such? I can only think of a couple of ways.

 

[ECS]

You do have a way of bending history around to fit a pet theory, I'll give you that Bigscoop.
This convoluted miasma of events jumps from one thing to another, and you got Mathew "Mexico" Sherman again into the this story.
Was that so you could mention Patterson and then in a future his daughter and who she married so you can claim "BONAPARTISTS" in Bedford county as you have done before to continue this Lafitte "connexion"?
When will you drop this world famous smoking gun bombshell that absolutely undeniably connects all this rambling history presentation to Ward's 1885 Beale story?
This isn't leading to the conclusion that Beale was really Lafitte because of the "swarthy" quote is it?

 

[ECS]

...
How did both author's know about all of this, some of these details/materials in their time being widely scattered and often confined to private paper collections and such? I can only think of a couple of ways.

I'm betting that you can create more than just a couple.

 

[bigscoop]

The real chuckles in all of this is how badly you are letting it all get under your skin. For the life of me I still can't figure out why anyone would spend so much time posting so many replies in pursuit of pure pointless argument that have no content whatsoever to do with the topic of the thread. I mean, you have to be eclipsing 100 post in this thread by now....basically all the same.....none of them in direct rebuttal or debate or in direct discussion of the current thread topic. If it were me and I had absolutely no interest and only little knowledge in the topic of a thread I'd maybe post an opinion or two before moving onto something I did have personal interest and more knowledge about, perhaps even starting a new thread on those areas of personal interest. But to let this thread eat away at you like you are...
I can't image what there is about this thread that you see to be so threatening?

 

[ECS]

Nothing threatening nor is there any real substance for a rebuttal on this thread, Bigscoop, just the same old misinformation of real historical events combined in an attempt to prove a fictional story is really a true story that has nothing to do with the original presented story that is fiction but could be true because of certain words and dates used that happen to also be used in a forged diary that created several decades after the other story that may involve a Jackson Ward Alderman of a similar name.
Even you, Bigscoop, would not waste your time on a rebuttal on something this ridiculous.

 

[bigscoop]

Nothing threatening nor is there any real substance for a rebuttal on this thread, Bigscoop, just the same old misinformation of real historical events combined in an attempt to prove a fictional story is really a true story that has nothing to do with the original presented story that is fiction but could be true because of certain words and dates used that happen to also be used in a forged diary that created several decades after the other story that may involve a Jackson Ward Alderman of a similar name.
Even you, Bigscoop, would not waste your time on a rebuttal on something this ridiculous.

.....oh man, have you walked yourself into a very tight corner........I mean just look at what you posted. Good lord man, those memoirs are such a small part of it. Would you like me to tell you about 1815 and the whole Washington affair, where Jackson, Latour, Laffite, had all gathered and what became of things afterwords? It's all documented.....involves new ships and preparations for the filibusters. I can also tell you why the insurance companies in New Orleans would no longer insure Spanish goods after this affair. And I can also tell you about two ships, one a US military ship that escorted a privateer carrying filibusters and rebel supplies, including guns for the rebels.....not once, but at least twice, all of this in support of those filibusters entering Texas. Again, it's all documented. Oh, and those new ships I referred to earlier, this included the one down being built in Charleston that's been touched upon before. Dude, you just have ZERO clue.