Thomas J. Beale - A Closer Look

bigscoop

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Alleged Letter of Jan, 4, 1822,
Stopping at Buford's, where we remained for a month, under pretense of hunting etc. we visited the cave, and found it unfit for our purpose. It was too frequently visited by the neighboring farmers, who used it as a receptacle for their sweet potatoes and other vegetables. We soon selected a better place, and to this the treasure was safely transferred.”

From C2,
The first deposit consisted of one thousand and fourteen pounds of gold, and three thousand eight hundred and twelve pounds of silver, deposited November, 1819. The second was made December, 1821,

Morris allegedly first met Beale in January,
"It was in the month of January, 1820, while keeping the Washington Hotel, that I first saw and became acquainted with Beale......”

No Tan,
Beale was in Virginia during the dead of winter for at least three months, as many as six if we are to assume that he remained with Morriss until his alleged April departures. When Morriss first met Beale - Beale had already been in Virginia for at least two months and his complexion was still, “dark and swarthy.”

Obvious Conclusion
Using just the information provided in the 1885 narration we can easily and accurately conclude that the alleged TJB WAS a man of natural “dark and swarthy complexion” and that he WAS NOT a Caucasian male. These are just the cold hard facts as they are detailed to us in the 1885 narration/publication.

Richmond
"It was in the month of January, 1820, while keeping the Washington Hotel, that I first saw and became acquainted with Beale. In company with two others, he came to my house seeking entertainment for himself and friends. Being assured of a comfortable provision for themselves and their horses, Beale stated his intention of remaining for the winter, should nothing occur to alter his plans, but that the gentlemen accompanying him would leave in a few days for Richmond, near which place they resided, and that they were anxious to reach their homes, from which they had long been absent.....”

Thomas J. Beale
As a matter of record, the only Thomas J. Beale of that record during the period was a free man of color living in Jackson Ward, Richmond. In later years (1884, just one yer prior to the publication) we find him serving that district in a civic position as alderman and with, at the very least, modest influence. This is the only Thomas J. Beale of record to be found during the entire period who could possibly fit both the narration's physical description and the described location of residence. All other Thomas Beale/Beall/Beale, etc., fail in matching most, if any, of the narration's offered details regarding the man.

Summary

With all of the above it's pretty naive (or just a simple case of blind denial) to accept that this man didn't bear a certain of influence in the 1885 narration. However, to what extent we will likely never know.
 

franklin

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Thomas J. Beale
As a matter of record, the only Thomas J. Beale of that record during the period was a free man of color living in Jackson Ward, Richmond. In later years (1884, just one yer prior to the publication) we find him serving that district in a civic position as alderman and with, at the very least, modest influence. This is the only Thomas J. Beale of record to be found during the entire period who could possibly fit both the narration's physical description and the described location of residence. All other Thomas Beale/Beall/Beale, etc., fail in matching most, if any, of the narration's offered details regarding the man.

Sorry that was not the only Thomas J. Beale that lived near Richmond. I have proof of another but you deny it. I am not sharing my evidence just to prove you wrong. But you and ECS are both wrong on this complexion theory of yours. There other people of color besides black people. Indian, Portuguese, Spanish and Mexican.
 

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bigscoop

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Thomas J. Beale
As a matter of record, the only Thomas J. Beale of that record during the period was a free man of color living in Jackson Ward, Richmond. In later years (1884, just one yer prior to the publication) we find him serving that district in a civic position as alderman and with, at the very least, modest influence. This is the only Thomas J. Beale of record to be found during the entire period who could possibly fit both the narration's physical description and the described location of residence. All other Thomas Beale/Beall/Beale, etc., fail in matching most, if any, of the narration's offered details regarding the man.

Sorry that was not the only Thomas J. Beale that lived near Richmond. I have proof of another but you deny it. I am not sharing my evidence just to prove you wrong. But you and ECS are both wrong on this complexion theory of yours. There other people of color besides black people. Indian, Portuguese, Spanish and Mexican.

Who said he was black? Nobody. You're just assuming as much. FYI, "Free man of color" didn't just apply to slaves and African Americans, as you assume. And Im sure you have proof of "other T. Beales" but, "This is the only Thomas J. Beale of record to be found during the entire period who could possibly fit both the narration's physical description and the described location of residence. All other Thomas Beale/Beall/Beale, etc., fail in matching most, if any, of the narration's offered details regarding the man." :thumbsup:
 

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franklin

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Are you quite sure on your last post. I don't think so.
 

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...
Sorry that was not the only Thomas J. Beale that lived near Richmond. I have proof of another but you deny it. I am not sharing my evidence just to prove you wrong. But you and ECS are both wrong on this complexion theory of yours. There other people of color besides black people. Indian, Portuguese, Spanish and Mexican.
Sorry, but the description of Thomas J Beale does not fit the Thomas Beale of the Risqué duel and who moved to New Orleans, or his son, nor the Thomas J Beale of Fauquier county, Virginia.
As with the "swarthy" description of Beale, and Morriss first meeting Beale in 1820 while keeping the Washington Hotel, are obvious "TELLS" that would have been noticed by the 1885 Lynchburg that the "authentic statements" were in fact, a work of fiction.
 

franklin

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Sorry but no one was talking about Thomas Beale of New Orleans or his son Thomas Beale Jr. either. I was referring to Thomas J. Beale son of Richard E. Beale.
 

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bigscoop

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Are you quite sure on your last post. I don't think so.

Look, here's the REAL situation as the author details it; the alleged Thomas J. Beale arrives in Virginia no later then December, this by his own accounts, and he remains there until at least the later part of January, again this by his own accounts. This means that he had been in Virginia during the dead of winter at least two full months before arriving at the residence of Morriss and "he was still dark and swarthy."

Now add to this that even though he didn't arrive at the Morriss residence until January, and in Virginia by December, he also had to cross the winter lower plains for at least another month during his travels and in January, after at least three months in the winter plains and Virginia, he was still dark and swarthy.

The "only way" this is possible is if his "natural complexion" was "dark and swarthy." PERIOD! "A MATTER OF FACTUAL HUMAN SCIENCE." There's just not getting around these conclusive and extremely factual facts. So, how then, do you propose that all of your white candidates pulled this impossible feat off? Quite clearly they couldn't have. And so, as in my original post, "This is the only Thomas J. Beale of record to be found during the entire period who could possibly fit both the narration's physical description and the described location of residence. All other Thomas Beale/Beall/Beale, etc., fail in matching most, if any, of the narration's offered details regarding the man."

So apparently you are saying that you have found another dark and swarthy Thomas J. Beale of the correct age and living near Richmond during the period in question. Correct?If so, great. But if not, then not so great. Pretty darn simple if we keep to the narrations details. :thumbsup:

Why you fellas are so stuck on the notion that this TJB had to be a white man is beyond reason as it pertains to the mystery and the narration's offered details. Everything in that narration speaks to the opposite. Why must he be a white man? What other dark and swarthy Beale near Richmond have you found?
 

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bigscoop

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Sorry but no one was talking about Thomas Beale of New Orleans or his son Thomas Beale Jr. either. I was referring to Thomas J. Beale son of Richard E. Beale.

Was his natural complexion dark and swarthy?
 

ECS

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Sorry but no one was talking about Thomas Beale of New Orleans or his son Thomas Beale Jr. either. I was referring to Thomas J. Beale son of Richard E. Beale.
Is this the Chestnut Hill Beales, the Southhampton county Beales, of the Farquier county Beales?
...and most important, did he have black hair, black eyes, and a dark and swarthy complexion?
That is the question.
 

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bigscoop

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Sorry but no one was talking about Thomas Beale of New Orleans or his son Thomas Beale Jr. either. I was referring to Thomas J. Beale son of Richard E. Beale.

Where are his dark and swarthy bloodlines, then? I sure couldn't find them.
 

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bigscoop

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Had long black hair, too... one of the Lafitte Brothers...?

The sad part, we don't even know for sure that this character was a real individual or just a fictional character styled around known subjects?
 

franklin

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Where are his dark and swarthy bloodlines, then? I sure couldn't find them.

You can not even find a Thomas J. Beale son of Richard E. Beale. How are you going to find his complexion. It really has no provenance what you are talking about anyway. You and ECS argued this out for eight months or more. Now you have ECS agreeing with your findings. No matter how unimportant this point being made is?
 

ECS

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"His character became universally known"-THE BEALE PAPERS
For someone who was 6 feet, black hair and eyes, swarthy complexion and was "UNIVERSALLY KNOWN", if Thomas J Beale was a real person, and not a fictional character of a dime novel, his identity would be easy to establish.
Instead he could be this Beale or maybe that Beale or even as one once claimed, Thomas Read who was allegedly massacred by Sheriff Otey and the Luck boys.
Once again, the description of Thomas J Beale was one of many "tells" or purposeful discrepancies found throughout the Beale Papers that would have been easily noticed by the targeted Lynchburg buyers of 1885.
 

ECS

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You can not even find a Thomas J. Beale son of Richard E. Beale.,.
No matter how unimportant this point being made is?
With all the various Beale genealogies that have been presented and discussed on these TN Beale threads, the "real" Thomas J Beale of the Beale Papers has ever been established, nor has it been established by anyone in the last 132 years.
As for other "unimportant points" ,attempting to prove that DOI signer Robert Morris Jr was related to the Robert Morriss character of the Beale Papers does come to mind, for it has no bearing on the original narrative text of the Beale Papers.
 

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bigscoop

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You can not even find a Thomas J. Beale son of Richard E. Beale. How are you going to find his complexion. It really has no provenance what you are talking about anyway. You and ECS argued this out for eight months or more. Now you have ECS agreeing with your findings. No matter how unimportant this point being made is?

Franklin, don't get sore over the realities and contrary info presented, won't change anything by simply going into rants. And yes, many -many Beale's have been researched over the years as you are fully aware so you're just sounding frustrated by, and here it comes, something you need to finally grasp, "Yes, the narration is the only source of provenance that exist in regards to the possible identity of Mr. Beale because it is, well, that original and only known source of that tale and that offered detail." What nobody has is provenance that the tale itself contains any measure of truth, or just some authentic statements.

But back to my question, are you suggesting that your suspected Beale had a dark and swarthy natural complexion? Again, from all that I and others have researched those bloodlines were never recognized.
 

ECS

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...
But back to my question, are you suggesting that your suspected Beale had a dark and swarthy natural complexion? Again, from all that I and others have researched those bloodlines were never recognized.
...and universally known, extremely popular with everyone, particularly the ladies, a model of manly beauty.
...and still no one has ever proved who really was this extremely popular universally known Thomas J Beale, or if he ever existed outside of the Beale Papers dime novel job print pamphlet.
 

franklin

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Sounds to me like you are either having a nervous breakdown or you are confusing all of the facts and non-facts together and coming up with gibberish.
 

ECS

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Sounds to me like you are either having a nervous breakdown or you are confusing all of the facts and non-facts together and coming up with gibberish.
While I am not having a "nervous breakdown" per your snipe, what facts and non facts am I confusing to come up with gibberish?
 

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