QUESTIONABLE INFORMATION POSTED AS FACT CONCERNING THE BEALE TALE
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Thread: QUESTIONABLE INFORMATION POSTED AS FACT CONCERNING THE BEALE TALE

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  1. #1
    ECS
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    QUESTIONABLE INFORMATION POSTED AS FACT CONCERNING THE BEALE TALE

    Over the years on various threads statements have been posted as "fact" when there is no documentation outside of the original source, THE BEALE PAPERS, publish by James Beverly Ward during the year of 1885 in Lynchburg, Virginia.
    Most appear to be based on opinion of maybe or pure embellished speculation, or force fitting random possibilities to fit a pet theory.
    Some of the questionable "facts":
    Robert Morriss was related to Robert Morris Jr, signer of the DOI.
    The Fine Arts Building on 600 Main St was the Morriss house where Beale stayed.
    Indians observed from a distance the kiln fires that the Beale Party utilized to smelt the ore.
    Once smelted gold and silver was made into bars by sand box casting.
    The gold was about 60% or 14K, the silver little more pure.
    The gold and silver bars were transported in false bottom wagons.
    To cross Big Otter Creek, the bars had to be unloaded and placed on pack mules.
    The treasure was placed in 30 gal salt Boone's Salt Works brine pots.
    The "key letter" was never delivered because of a St Louis flood.
    ...and so on.
    None of what is listed above is mentioned in the original source of THE BEALE PAPERS.

    Despite the conclusions made by Lt Thomas Fawcett who interviewed Lynchburg residents for codebreaker Col William Friedman concerning the Beale Papers and the treasure story-
    "The investigation in which we made...tended to support the view that the whole story of gold buried in Bedford county by Captain Beale and his associates was spun from the imagination of Mr Ward" report dated 30 April, 1949-
    speculation and lore continue to be presented that lack foundation in actual events.
    Last edited by ECS; Mar 11, 2019 at 09:36 AM.

  2. #2

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    BORING...
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  3. #3
    ECS
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    Boring? That was a surprise answer considering the local Beale acumen you tout.
    I was hoping that you or someone could shed some light on these embellishments to the original Beale story by Ward and provide an informed opinion as to their origin due to the complete lack of even minimal collaboration of the Beale treasure story outside of the Beale Papers pamphlet's pages.

  4. #4

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    Don't have to... YOU do it ponderously. W/O REAL "proof"; bet YOU NEVER been "on the ground" here, in Lynchburg or Bedford County, Va.
    franklin and cyzak like this.

  5. #5
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    You have asked ECS at least a dozen times about whether he has ever put boots on the ground in the search for the Beale Treasure, each and every time he goes in to a tantrum of questions and speculations of what others have quoted over the past ten years or more. He loves digging up speculations of ours of research to pursue and act as though we believe all before we research the information. He has done no search of his own on the ground yet all he knows is that what we do is not in the Job Print Pamphlet. Hell the world does not revolve around the Beale Papers. Get a life and let the Beale Treasure be searched for by people that really like what they are doing. If I did not believe the Beale Papers then why get on here and repeat it over and over. We know where you stand somewhere where the Beale Treasure will never be found.
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  6. #6
    ECS
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    Franklin, you are well aware of what my research is involved with- what is written in the Beale Papers pamphlet dime novel and actual documented historical events contemporary to that of the Beale narrative text.
    My research does not involve nor need to involve a "boots on the ground" search in Bedford county for a treasure that obviously does not, nor never did, exist outside of Ward's published dime novel pamphlet.

    Shall we now return to the topic of this thread-Questionable information posted as fact concerning the Beale tale?

  7. #7
    ECS
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    George L Hart with THE HART PAPERS dated January1, 1952 was the first in a long line to embellish "an alleged burial of gold, silver, and jewels...by Thomas Jefferson Beale and associates..." as written in the title of his work.
    Hart's embellishments include the "Jefferson" for the "J" that appeared in the original source, added upon the rumors of Indian massacres with "detailed their being set upon by Indians...when all were killed and scalped", introducing the Planters Hotel of St Louis (that was embellished upon by another writer), and the alleged 1903 meeting of Clayton Hart with James Beverly Ward and son which has been employed many times as proof of the Beale story, yet there is no other mention of this encounter anywhere else.

  8. #8
    ECS
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    Curios statements in the Hart Papers begin with Clayton Hart given 8 sheets of paper with cipher numbers by N H Hazelwood to copy, but the Beale Papers only had 3 sheets that number by order of length by the "unknown author".
    Then there is this: " We secured confirmation as to the Washington Hotel and its proprietor, Mr Morriss, during the period of 1819 to 1863" basic research once again will show that Robert Morris was Not the constant proprietor for that entire period.
    In the original Beale Papers, it is the "unknown author" who succeeded in solving cipher 2 using the DOI, the Hart Papers state "Mr Ward...succeeded in finding the key to cipherNo2".
    Furthermore it is stated about the printed Beale Papers pamphlet that "all but a few were destroyed by fire...before a plan of distribution and sale". If this was so, why the months of advertising the pamphlet for sale, the review in the Lynchburg Virginian newspaper, and eventually lowering the price from 50 cents to 10 cents if most were destroyed in a fire "before a plan of distribution and sale"?
    George L Hart as way of a disclaimer does state that he "will make an effort to put in writing all that he knows or surmises about the above subject" and "I can only state in a few words what Clayton told me about it".
    Surmising and hearsay accounts do not promote confidence in the presented story as being true.
    In the entire narrative text of the Hart Papers there is NO mention of an iron box, but George L Hart does relate a story by one Mr Otey, who it so happens to be Hart's wife's first cousin.
    This lack of mentioning an iron box, which is mentioned in Ward's original Beale Papers, becomes curious when George L Hart contacts Pauline Innis who is shown an iron box with one torn slip of randomly covered with numbers paper by a Mr Otey.

  9. #9
    us
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    George Hart was only sharing what he could remember about his and his brother's hunt for the Beale Treasure. It was to help other treasure hunters that may want to put boots on the ground in search of the treasure. Though he may have mis-statements and misquotes is understandable and anyone searching for the treasure are able to separate what is right and what is wrong about his statements. If a treasure hunter can not tell the difference then he or she should not be searching for treasure. It is like any story or news article we only absorb what we want and we leave the rest for someone else. If you know for a fact there is no treasure why do you keep pestering people on this forum with your rhetoric? Everything that you post we already past that point when we started researching for the treasure-----------it is a given. As there may be a treasure is a given--------that is the premise we start out with when researching a treasure. If you do not start this way you can never find a treasure. Say I started like you do-------there is no treasure because it is not written in the Job Print Pamphlet" Case closed you will never get off the couch. And now I ask again why ask questions if you know there is nothing to search for, no treasure because JB Ward made up the whole story?
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  10. #10

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    GREAT for "walking" exercise, too. Bedford County has MANY beautiful spots... seeing Old Lynchburg, Va. by the James River, is NICE, too! "Fave" area is Coffee Road (lived in that area, years... ago); Thomas Jefferson's road to Poplar Forest; home area of Gen. TT Munford, CSA; No Biz Mountain...
    Last edited by Rebel - KGC; Mar 11, 2019 at 08:06 AM.
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  11. #11
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    ECS...

    You and I have had a "history" of poking fun at each other... but I say this with respect... seriously ... and with sincerity...

    First I respect you and your research... and often feel your posts here stem mostly from a "reverse psychology" angle...

    meaning... you purposely say things to instigate a response in which an individual diverges "more" than you already know concerning legends.

    NOW... before you take this as a "put down" ... it is not... just an outsider observation / opinion from afar.

    This my friend... is ONE SIDE of the opinion... and not my full one.

    I also think that puzzles intrigue you and that "solving" a puzzle that confronts you is paramount... Solving = proving / disproving.

    Now... again... another facet to your "stone".

    I personally like you and your determination... you are well spoken / written (me I write in Win95 BBS style )...
    and you have the gall to poke the nests that may uncover the honey and see it through the swarm that may emerge.

    Anyway... The world of lost treasures and legends needs you.

    You are the fuel that keeps the fires burning... and a keeper of the light.

    BUT...



    You also must realize that at some point in your quests for truth that the truths you seek may be unattainable... never to be labeled one way or another.

    At least not today anyway.

    I personally have stated before in open forums many times my beliefs concerning "legends" like the Beale... I believe ALL legends stem from SOME FORM of original truth.

    And ALSO believe that truth over time... even in very short time... becomes fictional.

    I believe the bandwagon and load of a story become um... "More" every time it is told.

    More time... more muddled.

    With this legend... I personally feel it exists OR existed and was long ago found.

    And... I believe the location is NOT what people think... see... I read between the lines... FROM the side,

    The riddle ... is NOT really a riddle IMO.

    Its "point blank".

    Very simple... muddled into very complex.

    The code... complex... UNLESS you knew the key... then it became VERY simple.

    For an example boys... of "simple"...

    There is NO HOLE filled with treasure guys.

    It was and IS and ALWAYS has been ... SIMPLY STATED... "A vault".

    Now ... ask yourself ... "what is the definition - OLD TIME - of a vault"

    Start there... And I will take my cut via PayPal.

    :P

    Anyway...
    Have permission... Fill holes... Dispose of trash. - The Random Chat Thread - http://www.treasurenet.com/forums/ev...en-24-7-a.html

  12. #12
    ECS
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    Quote Originally Posted by AARC View Post
    ECS...

    I personally have stated before in open forums many times my beliefs concerning "legends" like the Beale... I believe ALL legends stem from SOME FORM of original truth.
    And ALSO believe that truth over time... even in very short time... becomes fictional...
    With this legend... I personally feel it exists OR existed and was long ago found...
    AARC,
    Searching for the "original truth" or source of the Beale perilous adventure treasure story ALWAYS starts and comes back to 1885 when James Beverly Ward published his pamphlet for sale.
    His life experiences and the experiences of his extended family provided the source material for the story, beginning with his grandfather James Beverly Risque's duel with Thomas Beale (not "Thomas J Beale) to the death of his great uncle, John P Risqué being killed by Indians while inspecting gold mines in Arizona two years before the publication of the pamphlet.
    While one can research the events in the lives of this extended family bloodline that parallel location and such in the Beale narrative text; and that would also include Ward's wife, Harriet Emmaline Otey, who was born and raised 4 miles from Buford's, after 135+ years NO research has uncovered even the slightest piece of proof that the Thomas J Beale of the pamphlet or his perilous adventure and treasure existed outside of the pages of Ward's pamphlet.
    Which brings us back to the list of "facts" in the Post #1 and the HART PAPERS.
    If this Beale story was "spun from the imagination of Mr Ward, what is the origin of these "facts" and follow up stories?
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  13. #13
    ECS
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    "my brother, Clayton, and I discussed the Séance, not believing anything that transpired, and, still, wondering if there could be the possibility of some truth in what the subject blurt forth"- THE HART PAPERS
    Much of what was presented in the Hart's embellished Beale story came from a séance with a medium.
    This is first time that "psychic" revelations were employed to enhance the story and fill in the gaps in the original story, but "psychic" revelations and experiences would again be utilized by later authors building additional versions of the Beale saga began by Ward in 1885.
    AARC likes this.

  14. #14
    ECS
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    Clayton Hart did send copies of the ciphers, it is not mentioned if copies were the "alleged" 8 sheets from Hazelwood or copies of the 3 sheets from Ward's Beale Papers, to US government codebreaker, Col George Fabyan.
    Fabyan, known for his breaking German military codes activities in WWI, replied to Hart about the sent ciphers, "lies rather beyond the range of possibility without the key".
    But the supplied ciphers did attract the attention of fellow codebreaker, Col William Friedman, who years later, sent Lt Thomas Fawcett on that fact finding mission to Lynchburg which resulted in the conclusion that the Beale story was "spun from Mr Ward's imagination".
    Col Friedman's concerning the Beale treasure story and ciphers," diabolical ingenuity, specifically designed to lure the unwary reader".
    Fellow government codebreaker and Friedman's wife, Elizabeth Smith Friedman stated that" it was printed for the sole purpose of selling copies of it for profit, and the ciphers should be considered in the same light as the myriad of "treasure maps" which are sold in the Southern states purporting to come down from pirate days".
    Last edited by ECS; Mar 11, 2019 at 02:20 PM.
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  15. #15
    ECS
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    Now take into consideration the mention of names in the original Beale Papers source and the location of in whose care and homes Robert Morris and Sarah Mitchell Morris passed away can be proven to be true, that DOES NOT make the Beale perilous adventure treasure tale true.
    The same is obvious with the Hart Papers, Clayton Hart's contact with Fabyan DOES NOT prove the rest of the Hart narrative text true.
    Bear in mind, there exists NO collaborating evidence outside of either works that can confirm the rest of the stories therein.
    It becomes obvious that employing these few items that could be documented by research, it would make the rest of the narrative story plausible and "lure the unwary reader".
    Last edited by ECS; Mar 11, 2019 at 02:27 PM.
    AARC likes this.

 

 
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