Seeking info on ST JULIEN MEDOC glass blob seal

[rschmidt]

I have dug up a seal from a wine bottle that says, "ST JULIEN MEDOC". Can anyone help me find out how old this is? I have sent an inquiry to a wine museum in France in the Medoc region, but no response yet.
Thanks,
Rich

 

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[epackage]

I believe it dates to the 1770-80's...

 

[rschmidt]

I believe it dates to the 1770-80's...

That is what I thought, but I don't have any hard evidence to support it. Can you suggest any?
Thanks,
Rich

 

[diggerbutt]

It's almost impossible to date

Hello rschmidt,

According to © 2000 Digger Odell Publications, it is impossible to date a St Julien Medoc wine bottle by its seal. This question was asked in May 2000:

Hello Digger, Just found a bottle here in the Florida Keys that I can't find any info on. I have one already that is green, but this one is amber colored. It is 12 inches tall, with a sheared top and a ring lip, a very high kickup, and the round seal on the shoulder is embossed "St. JULIEN MEDOC". Do you know anything about this bottle? Thanks, Dennis

Response:
Your bottle is a wine bottle, Bordeaux red wine to be exact. The seal identifies the specific maker and region. The maker is of town of St. Julien located in southwestern France near Bordeaux. The Medoc is a pennisula famous for wine making even from ancient times. "In the Médoc more so than anywhere else without doubt, the idea of cru is essentially linked to that of the vineyard and the property. The cru is the "seal", the private name, the birthright of each vine-grower to whom it has been handed down in the classical tradition. These crus (classés, bourgeois and artisans) have for long been grouped into families. The 1855 Classification of Gironde wines made official a hierarchy which had already been firmly established by practice. For the term "Cru Classé", created in the Médoc, existed well before 1855. The classification, which developed gradually as from the second half of the eighteenth century, remained an internal reference until 1855, used by the brokers alone as an indication of the range of wine prices before being brought to public attention at the time of the Universal Exhibition.
This 1855 classification - completed in 1973 with the 1973 classification for the First Growths - is a base reference, establishing an evaluation of the Médoc crus; it also serves as a model imitated by the other Bordeaux appellations....To be entitled to the controlled Label of origin Saint-Julien, the red wines must: - to come from the commune of Saint-Julien and well delimited pieces of the communes from Cussac and the St. Lawrence." About 6% of the wines from the Medoc come from this commune.

Determining the exact age of your bottle can be done by examining it from mold seams and the method of manufacture. The presence of the applied seal in this case cannot be used to date the bottle based on the above information. Digger May 2000 Questions

Yes, it could be a seal from a 19th century bottle, but you can be sure. The earlier bottles on this make have a different seal on them with grapes. Here is a link to one of those seals: Bottle Pickers

This the picture depicting what is believed to be one of the earlier bottles:

Sometimes it is frustrating to find bottles or fragments that you can not accurately date. I know this feeling very well. Hope this information helps!

 

[epackage]

I believe your seal easily predates the one pictured above...

 

[diggerbutt]

Could be epackage! You know way more about bottles than I do

 

[rschmidt]

diggerbut and epackage,
Thank you for your informative replies, I'm new to this avocation, so I am relying on my background (mechanical engineering) to get a relative feel for the age of this artifact. If you compare the photo of my seal and the one supplied by diggerbut, there are differences due to the manufacturing process. Most notably, the non-uniformity of the border and depth of the imprint, causing the circle of dots to only be visible in the top half of my seal. Diggerbut's seal image is very uniform, which says to me that it is likely machine-made, or at least made with the assistance of an alignment fixture. My seal appears to be hand-made, hence the poor alignment of the imprinting tool. Also, the presence of more detailed features (grapes and vines, in this case) is usually an indication of a more modern example. Therefore, the seal that I found is likely older, at least in my very inexperienced archeological opinion. I would be interested in your response to this theory. Thank you, Rich

 

[diggerbutt]

My response would be that your reply is very logical. However, the French are notorious for their fine script when it comes to what is hand-made. The font on your bottle seems to be ordinary, and indicative of a standardized block print. This would be used for more mass production. Yes, opinion would have it that the older the bottle the more simple in detail. I do not find that to be true with bottle-making; especially when it comes to French bottles. Of course, I could be wrong, as I have been many times. I gave you the info from two very informative links that are based upon the professional opinions of those who know much more than I do. I wish you much success in finding glass work. It is quite the experience to find it. So much is the experience, that when you do come across bottles in a sale, you will feel like a kid in a candy store. If you find them in the ground, and you pull them carefully through to realize you have a complete...Now, those are memories you will never forget. And when you clean those bottles that have been stuck in the dirt, you start to see and remember every detail that you are cleaning.

Again, I am not an expert, but I am an absolute enthusiast who probably has a different eye for detail. I have French bottles that are older and those that are newer. I feel I can see the difference in what is more machine made, but then again...I usually leave the final say so to the experts. My links are experts.

 

[rschmidt]

Thanks for the tips, I appreciate it. My wife "suggested" that we go to France to research it directly Might be a while before we can do that.

Happy digging,
Rich

 

[epackage]

My experience is that 'typically' the earlier the seal the less ornate it is, many early seals just had the initials of the person the bottle was made for and sometimes the date. They seem to have evolved to be more ornate as time passed and I think your seal and the second one posted clearly shows the evolution of this seal. Hopefully more research will confirm or refute my opinion without doubt...