I've added a few images as best I can. There are two lions either side of a Crest and the head of a stag above. Below the Crest is the wording " sideus nobiscum deus contranos". Its unusual hence why I ask as I cant seem to find anything on google.
Identify old bottle
- Thread starter Tisme
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epackage
Bronze Member
Mineral water or ginger ale in form, "God is with us, who shall be against us, no clue where it's from...
epackage
Bronze Member
1900ish would be my best guess...
Jason in Enid
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Need clear, close up pics of the neck, lip and base to even make a guess.
NJKLAGT
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Need better pics like Jason said. Might even be machine made. Definitely from across the pond.
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PetesPockets55
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Nice images but how about additional closeups of the bottom and opening?
Jason in Enid
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I'm going to say its probably a 1915 or newer machine made bottle. I can see a seem line on the neck that extends up to the crown molding, so it may have been machine made with a hand lip finish. The base looks smooth like later machine made bottles and the glass looks to be pretty consistent in thickness and not overly thick or thin.
In the end it probably doesnt matter much for any possible value, just some of the things we look at to try to place it into a timeline. Early bottles were hand blown into a mold. It often left a lot of bubbles in the glass and the thickness wasnt even. The makers also had to re-heat the glass to form the neck and lip by hand which smoothed out any seem line and left tell-tale circular marks. Early machine made bottles typically had marks on the base from an air injection system to help remove them from the molds. You bottle seems to have some aspects but its not "perfect" so that what makes me think its from the timeframe when the automatic machines were still new and being improved.
In the end it probably doesnt matter much for any possible value, just some of the things we look at to try to place it into a timeline. Early bottles were hand blown into a mold. It often left a lot of bubbles in the glass and the thickness wasnt even. The makers also had to re-heat the glass to form the neck and lip by hand which smoothed out any seem line and left tell-tale circular marks. Early machine made bottles typically had marks on the base from an air injection system to help remove them from the molds. You bottle seems to have some aspects but its not "perfect" so that what makes me think its from the timeframe when the automatic machines were still new and being improved.
NJKLAGT
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Yep, it's machine made like I had suspected, probably an "Ashley" machine or other English machine. I once did a thread on these types of bottles, because you think they're blown every time, sometimes all the way home until you clean them up.
Jason in Enid
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Well, even though bottles can travel quite a distance, the most likely answer is that its from very close to where it was found.
PetesPockets55
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Thanks for the additional images. Not easy to get details to show up sometimes.
Red-Coat
Gold Member
I'm having trouble seeing the armorial. Are you sure it's two lions and not one lion and a griffin? is it surmounted by a stag or a stag's head? is it this?
Red-Coat
Gold Member
Hi @Tisme
OKā¦ I thought it might be. The armorial and the motto āSi Deus Nobiscum Deus Contranosā (If God is with us, who can be against us) are for the Morgan family in South Wales (UK)ā¦ and I think the connection to the bottle is likely via Godfrey Charles Morgan, 1st Viscount Tredegar (1831-1913).
The Morgans were one of the wealthiest families in Wales and their Tredegar estate included much of Newport, a good part of Cardiff, and extensive tracts of land and industrial properties in the local coalfields. Godfrey joined the British Army, rising to Captain in the 17th Lancers and at the age of 23 led his section at the Charge of the Light Brigade (āinto the valley of death rode the 600ā)ā¦ one of only two officers from the 17th to return from the engagement. Of the 673 who began the charge, 113 were killed, 134 wounded and 15 taken prisoner. After returning to civilian life, in 1858 he was elected unopposed as Conservative Member of Parliament for the county of Brecon.
Soā¦ what does all that have to do with your bottle? I can only guess, but my guess is this. The Tredegar estate area was an industrial heartland of collieries and heavy industry (notably the Tredegar Iron and Coal Company) with a large catchment for workers and a consequently high number of pubs and heavy drinkers. If you Google for āTredegar bottlesā and other similar terms you will see that there were a large number of quite small companies and establishments profiting from this trade and that they often had their own ābrandedā bottles for beer (many of them no longer attributable). Even an establishment as small as a single pub might have had its own bottles.
From about 1860 there was a step-change in the promotion of moderation in consuming alcohol by the Temperance Movement (especially in this area of Wales), leading ultimately to the āSunday Closing (Wales) Act 1881ā requiring the closure of all pubs in Wales on Sundays. It was jokingly said that the Empire could not afford the downtime on Monday mornings. Godfrey is on record as a supporter of temperance (although not in a ācrusaderā sense) and would undoubtedly have been a political supporter of the Sunday Closing Act in Parliament, given his financial interest in coal and iron production.
The drive for temperance had also led to a significant number of those establishments producing bottled beers in that area of Wales to introduce so-called āreformā drinks such as āhop bittersā and āJamaican gingerā which were supposedly non-alcoholic. Actually they could contain up to 2% alcohol by volume and were frequently used as mixers for strong draught ales and porters such that you could end up with a 7% shandy. Nevertheless, I would theorise (without any proof) that Godfrey was happy for his familyās armorial to be used by someone to promote a temperance drink of that kind, not least since there was an anomaly in the law. Part of the Tredegar estate was in Monmouthshire which, despite being geographically in Wales, was subject to English law. As such, it was unaffected by the Sunday Closing Act and so in even more need of temperance.
It doesnāt completely solve the mystery of your bottle, but I would place it in the Tredegar area of South Wales as a small company āreformā drink bottle from between the 1860s and the very early 1900s. Godfrey never married and the viscountcy became extinct when he died on 11th March 1913.
OKā¦ I thought it might be. The armorial and the motto āSi Deus Nobiscum Deus Contranosā (If God is with us, who can be against us) are for the Morgan family in South Wales (UK)ā¦ and I think the connection to the bottle is likely via Godfrey Charles Morgan, 1st Viscount Tredegar (1831-1913).
The Morgans were one of the wealthiest families in Wales and their Tredegar estate included much of Newport, a good part of Cardiff, and extensive tracts of land and industrial properties in the local coalfields. Godfrey joined the British Army, rising to Captain in the 17th Lancers and at the age of 23 led his section at the Charge of the Light Brigade (āinto the valley of death rode the 600ā)ā¦ one of only two officers from the 17th to return from the engagement. Of the 673 who began the charge, 113 were killed, 134 wounded and 15 taken prisoner. After returning to civilian life, in 1858 he was elected unopposed as Conservative Member of Parliament for the county of Brecon.
Soā¦ what does all that have to do with your bottle? I can only guess, but my guess is this. The Tredegar estate area was an industrial heartland of collieries and heavy industry (notably the Tredegar Iron and Coal Company) with a large catchment for workers and a consequently high number of pubs and heavy drinkers. If you Google for āTredegar bottlesā and other similar terms you will see that there were a large number of quite small companies and establishments profiting from this trade and that they often had their own ābrandedā bottles for beer (many of them no longer attributable). Even an establishment as small as a single pub might have had its own bottles.
From about 1860 there was a step-change in the promotion of moderation in consuming alcohol by the Temperance Movement (especially in this area of Wales), leading ultimately to the āSunday Closing (Wales) Act 1881ā requiring the closure of all pubs in Wales on Sundays. It was jokingly said that the Empire could not afford the downtime on Monday mornings. Godfrey is on record as a supporter of temperance (although not in a ācrusaderā sense) and would undoubtedly have been a political supporter of the Sunday Closing Act in Parliament, given his financial interest in coal and iron production.
The drive for temperance had also led to a significant number of those establishments producing bottled beers in that area of Wales to introduce so-called āreformā drinks such as āhop bittersā and āJamaican gingerā which were supposedly non-alcoholic. Actually they could contain up to 2% alcohol by volume and were frequently used as mixers for strong draught ales and porters such that you could end up with a 7% shandy. Nevertheless, I would theorise (without any proof) that Godfrey was happy for his familyās armorial to be used by someone to promote a temperance drink of that kind, not least since there was an anomaly in the law. Part of the Tredegar estate was in Monmouthshire which, despite being geographically in Wales, was subject to English law. As such, it was unaffected by the Sunday Closing Act and so in even more need of temperance.
It doesnāt completely solve the mystery of your bottle, but I would place it in the Tredegar area of South Wales as a small company āreformā drink bottle from between the 1860s and the very early 1900s. Godfrey never married and the viscountcy became extinct when he died on 11th March 1913.
- Thread starter
- #20
Thank you for the information. It's an unusual bottle hence my interest. I can now know it's welsh. I live a long way from wales so its travelled some distance. I will do some googling to see if I can find any thing else on it. Thanks
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