Markings In Cliff Overhang

[phxAZ]

Hi... I forgot to bring the camera I left on the table... next time I am in the area I will photograph them. I have seen them so many times over the years I can describe them fairly well though for now.

In an area between Christpher Creek and Heber-Overgaard (Rim Country, AZ), ~7,500ft elevation, there is a small creek that barely runs unless there has been a bunch of rain (but usually always standing pockets of water). I've been there countless times growing up and to the cliff in question.

The area is not undiscovered by any means, there is a camp ground that is occassionally used near there (albeit not often as it is a rough forest road to get back to). The cliff/cave (above 15 ft deep) is fairly easy to be seen if you are on the stream. What is immediately noticable when you get close is it is "burnt out", with soot collected to the roof. I've always known about the markings but until my interest in MD I've never given it much thought.

The markings always seemed kind of fake looking, like way too stereotypical, but I decide what the heck right. I never really messed around in the cliff because there was always knats and thought it was an ideal den for a large animal to bring its catch back to and didn't want to be it.

Well I was up there, and looked again. For the first time I noticed the ceiling had been carved out to make a chimney of sorts. Now this is solid rock, and the height is such you have to kneel in it. The hole is about 2 ft wide and goes up quite a ways. It is about as round as one could make a hole in rock without the assistance of machines.

I waved the MD around, found a hit on a little fragment of iron, but in the process found a fragement of pottery. On the outside it was offwhite with a brown/red paint for the design (angled intersecting lines of sorts). Now I'm thinking I don't want to be up here with a MD now that I think this might actually be legit (between the chimney and the pottery fragment)... so I merely sweep around a bit and don't get any hits and decide to go back some other time without the MD or shovel so I don't get nailed if it were a site warranting protection.

Now for the markings... they are carved into the rock, making the markings appear quite while against the stone and placed the soot had collected (not noticing any soot covering the markings in the last 12 years leads me to believe no fire has been lit in there in recent time).

On the left side, there is the following, each symbol measuring about 6 inches tall, and the width of the "stroke" about 3/4". They have very good detail for being carved into rock as far as I'm concerned. I am using a pound sign (#) to seperate the symbols:
Bird Symbol with Rain Over it (standing bird) # Lightning Bolts # Sun # Can't remember the one...
The right side is the one that got my wheels turning because of the very last symbol:
Standing Bird (no rain) # Cross (looks like a plus sign those, all sides equal, and it is a double outline of a plus sign, not the a solid plus sign) # Cross Shovels

That last symbol is what made me think of treasure, and if this were Indian markings, it had to be the era of miners. I also believe this symbol was used in some currency or bars?

There is also a couple segments of smaller markings, used with a much thinner tool, almost sliced in. I didn't memorize those, but they were "grouped" kind of in a single picture of representation.

So my question is... does this mean anything of significance to TH? Again, I'll get pics on my next visit in the next couple weekends.

 

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[Cannonman17]

Sounds like an Indian campsite to me.. could it be that the "shovels" are maybe something else.. missinterpreted?

 

[phxAZ]

Indeed... the little I've uncovered shows the bird may actual be a person. The shovels crossed may actually be crossed arrows (except it didn't have distinct feathers as I recall). The "plus" sign, means "path crossing".

If the bird is a man, it means just that, "man". If the shovels are arrows, it means "friendship".

In all, they seem positive in spirit from what I decipher from other sites, and yea, odds are it is just telling a small story of a brief moment in time.

The thing is though, both my friend and I were very adminant those "shovels" were just that, unmistakably, and that is the only thing that made my wheels turn in that regard.

I'll post pictures here, for nothing else than I some good pics to check out. Also, I don't think Apaches or Indians in the area had much dealing in mining, but I believe they did have their sure of skirmishes with local miners, kidnappings, raids, etc.

Again, I would concur this has no relation my motivation of TH, but if you don't let your imagination run wild, the chances of ever finding something are probable nil.

 

[Cannonman17]

I'll probably never find any treasure.. I try not to let my mind run wild too much because for me it has often led to a waste of time when I could have been after more modest (and attainable) treasures. Case in point: I would look at these symbols, soot stained cieling, pottery and not think apache vs miners = treasure nearby.... I would think... pottery.... this remote location.... cave probably hasn't been dug... hmm... I would have gotten the shovel and sifter and been three foot down there already with a bunch of artifacts! (providing this isn't in some park or something like that) I would be looking for a different type of treasure altogether.

 

[deepsix47]

It sounds like you have a rock shelter. I agree with Cannonman, dig it. If you can post some pictures of the drawings and they are Indian, I can most likely tell you their meaning. From what you describe the cross is probably the "earth cross" it represents the four directions which are each equal in power to the Indians. The lightning bolts if parallel represent a stream or river. The others, I'd have to see how they are drawn to know the meaning and the whole thing to possibly read the message.

Are they chipped into the rock? Are they painted? What geographical area are you in? The Indians that lived in the area. All of that are necessary to determine if they are authentic or not.

Also, you might check the slope between the shelter and the stream. That would be the midden area. Check the stream itself too. Good luck.
Deepsix

 

[phxAZ]

The markings are chipped in, and they are done quite well. For that fact alone, they seem rather modern, as opposed to ancient. The natives that inhabited the area were Tonto Apaches. History in this area is focused on the late 1800's, during the Apache Wars that occured in this area, led by General Crook (for which many trails are named for in the region).

Again, I'll take pics and post them on the next visit. Also, my bad on the plus sign. I is a single line after I spoke with my bud. I know the symbol you are refering to and that isn't it. It is basically a plus (or medic) symbol, but the outline only (all lines connected).

Digging it would be interesting, but I don't want to find out if it is an off limit area the hard way. There is nothing posted though, and no one who lives or spends time up there ever talks about it, so I dunno.

 

[phxAZ]

The fragment I found, the pattern is extremely similar to the one on this image... I mean EXTREMELY similar. I can't put my find on what tribe it is likened to.

There are several leads in the area that make it fun to think about at the very least.

------------------
Located in either Apache or Coconino Counties, a Navajo silver mine found by "Merrick" and "Mitchell", who were later killed by Indians.
---------------

 

[Cannonman17]

You need to keep in mind that the history of the area you're in goes back farther than the 1800's. Everybody wants to put a tribes name on a place or artifact but the fact of the matter is they have lived hear for at least the last 12,000 years during which time tribes emerged,merged, disappeared- so the Apache period was a relatively small blip on the over all radar- it's possilbe that the carvings are much older than the Apache. I would probably be digging- a chance to find that type of ceramics.... wow. I hear people have often run into burials in over hangs / caves though to-?? I wouldn't like that- I don't have to worry about it becuse I just surface hunt for the most part...

 

[deepsix47]

You need to keep in mind that the history of the area you're in goes back farther than the 1800's. Everybody wants to put a tribes name on a place or artifact but the fact of the matter is they have lived hear for at least the last 12,000 years during which time tribes emerged,merged, disappeared- so the Apache period was a relatively small blip on the over all radar- it's possilbe that the carvings are much older than the Apache. I would probably be digging- a chance to find that type of ceramics.... wow. I hear people have often run into burials in over hangs / caves though to-?? I wouldn't like that- I don't have to worry about it becuse I just surface hunt for the most part...

Actually, many burials have been found in caves but few in Rock Shelters/Overhangs. The crossed shovels, if in fact that is what they are, would indicate post Spanish Conquest era therefore my questions.

Also, not "everybody" wants to tag a particular tribe to an artifact. With ancient artifacts especially it's often only possible to tag them to a particular culture and then sometimes only if you know the area in which the artifact was recovered. I've found that in general only the amateurs try to tag "everything" to a particular known "tribe" and that usually dissapears as experience is gained.
Deepsix

 

[yelnif]

I just wanted to 'bump' this -did you ever get back to this site - dig it? You promised to show pics. yelnif...

 

[Ecominer]

Let me know if you ever decide to post the pictures.

 

[boogeyman]

Lessee...... Seven year old post........ He's in a area that was heavily traveled through by the Indians there's a known trail from around Lake Pleasant area. What area is / was he in? Hmmmm.... PhxAz?

 

[g-olden years]

This is an interesting thread, though apparently abandoned by the one who started it years ago.

It's been 14 years since I lived in Arizona. However if I recall correctly, at that time it was illegal to remove ANY native people's artifacts from ANY PUBLIC LAND. I was into rock-hounding at that time, not treasure or relic hunting and not digging anything, so didn't learn the legal details. But for those of you who live in or explore in Arizona, wise to check both federal & state laws regarding public lands BEFORE you risk losing your equipment, vehicle, freedom, savings, etc. By public land, I mean BLM, state preserves, national forests, etc. State laws vary from state to state and I think Arizona's laws are very restrictive. (Law is probably less restrictive or nonexistent regarding private land, maybe only need landowner's permission on private land.) Andi

 

[JeromeAz]

Not too smart digging Indian artifacts in Az. Jail time for that. I doubt it's Apache. Its from long before them.

 

[boogeyman]

Not too smart digging Indian artifacts in Az. Jail time for that. I doubt it's Apache. Its from long before them.

Tonto Apache were all over that area. Others traveled up east of where I 17 runs now days to Prescott & east. Also, there's ruins through the area that are Hohokam as claimed by the archies as trying to defend themselves from the tonto apaches. Yeah, I know this doesn't fit with the run of the mill tour books & stuff, but research it & you'll find the same.