Death Traps??

[HappyTrails55]

I'm going to try to put up a link here, now usually my links don't always work here so maybe some of you fellows can help me out if it doesn't work. But before I do let me say this, I ain't a looking for Coins or Bars, hee,hee...The Spanish and Mexicans of California dealed in Flour Gold, (Dust), Nuggets sometimes and there are several documented reports of this the "de la Guerra Papers" at Santa Barbara Mission Archive Library, this is one example, "Bandini to Jose de la Guerra concerning his involvement in a financial matter at Mission San Juan Capistrano, Fray Jose Maria Zalvidea, O.F.M., had entrusted Victor Jansen with 117 ounces of gold, who buried it in the mission and departed for Monterey. Zalvidea disturbed over Jansen's long absence called in Bandini who found it, with six ounces missing. Bandini entrusted the money to Abel Stearns and Bandini soon found himself a target of accusations. He received a stern letter from Fray Narciso Duran, O.F.M., which angered Bandini who declared his determination to seek satisfaction". So let's try this, <http://www.cprr.org/Museum/PacificRR_Surveys/index.html> The Author of this is the United States War Dept. of 1856, it's the Pacific Railroads Survey of 1853 to 1855...Once there you want to scroll down to VOLUME 5, CLICK ON PART 2, go to Page # 299 and read to the Coast Mountains about the Gold, page 300 is about Platinum, Page 301 is about Silver, Page 302 is about Silver & Gold, make sure you read all of the pages....Now there is another Volume that also has the report of the Indians & Mexicans washing gold out of the San Marcos Creek Drainage which flows into the Salinas River about a mile or two south of San Miguel Mission.

 

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[Tom_in_CA]

I have tried to put this link of yours into a browser : http://www.cprr.org/Museum/PacificRR_Surveys/index.html

It's not working.

But if I understand the rest of what you've now written, it seems you are saying that the "$100,000" in gold, found on this clergy returning to Mexico, was in gold dust and nuggets. And coming from coastal areas , right ?

I would challenge this. I want to see your source. Got a working link ?

EVEN TODAY those gold bearing regions along the coastal valleys are not economically viable for commercial purposes. The geography/geology of our coastal range mountains is not the same as the Sierra nevadas. So to the extent that there was *some* gold found along the Las Padres forest mountains, Santa Cruz mountains, and a small strike near Castaic, etc.... Yet they were never viable economically . NOT EVEN TODAY, with all the mechanized means at our disposal, is anyone working them for the gold. And any md'ing hobbyists today, that want to angle for nuggets, are primarily in the sierra nevada foothills. Not the locations you speak of.

There is no way in heck that someone, in 1830, showed up in another part of the world with "$100,000" in gold dust/nuggets from CA.

And as for the general tone of the claims you are making, they sound like something pulled straight from the text of the 1970s treasure magazines. Each edition of which was filled with "lost mine" stories that all sort of sounded like that.

I am willing to take a look at your source documents. And will analyze them for "more plausible explanation". Got a working link ?

 

[Tom_in_CA]

...

Cross De Sign, I have zoomed in on the text of the same pages you show. From the river of gold book.

Look closely at the sources of the ... uh ... stimulating stories and claims the author tells. And ask yourself if "more plausible explanations" could be a play. eg.: Some dude is walking along the road and talks to a rancher. The rancher tells him of "boulder sized nuggets" that so & so got from such & such mountain. As attested to "... by their great great grandfather".

I have been into this for over 40 yrs. now. And if I had a dime for every doozie I've heard, I'd be rich. Ya know, like: You're at a company Christmas party. Someone at the water cooler finds out your into md'ing. So they launch into a story of how they know of a "cache buried at such & such ranch". Or a "cave with skeletons in it". Or the probable location of a lost mine, etc.... And... sure,... they all sound so compelling.

One time, a trusted friend from church and I were talking. The subject of md'ing came up. He started spinning the tale of how he knew of a cave where a skeleton was found, in a SUIT OF SPANISH ARMOR ! Wow. And that you needed ropes to rappel down inside. And no one knows where it's at except a select few (including him). And that it's a 2 hr. drive to the middle of nowhere. Blah blah blah. I was spell-bound !

We hatched the plan to go there together, as soon as our schedules would allow. I'd bring the detectors and know how, and he'd show me the spot. In the days that followed, I began to do a little google searching on some of the details of his story. Turns out it was simply the story contained in a fanciful book of "ghost story" type legends sold in local tourist trap shops. Where the author weaves true historical facts, into colorful "what if?" type treasure speculations. The kind of stuff you buy for your grade school kids to read.

And the particular "cave with skeleton in armor" story was along this lines: When Hwy. 1 went through in the 1930s, along the rugged Big Sur coast, a worker died in an accident during construction. His fellow workers paid their last respects, and lowered his body down into a cave that ... happen-chance, was at that section of the road-building effort. And this cave had also been the site of pre-contact (pre European) indian burial cave site. Thus there were , of course, other human bones down @ the bottom.

Fast forward 25 or 30 yrs. later (late 1950s? early 1960s?), some people were exploring this cave. Found the indian burial bones. And ... wow ... in with those remains were the remains of a white man ! With western clothing evidence. That made the newspapers of the day. Before long, the "western clothing" was morphed into "suit of armor". Speculation grew wild, since this was a corridor of travel from Mission San Antonio to the coast. And since it's historical that that particular mission did try their hand at gold in those hills (albeit unproductive commercially or viably , truth-be-told). And before long, now "treasure" is in the wild rumors following the newspaper account .

But as said, all it was , was a pre-history burial cave , where an unfortunate worker from the 1930s had also been laid. NO TREASURE. But once a rumor and story like this gets into popular lore, it's impossible to put to rest. The author of this local legends book "Randy Reinstedt" just collected a bunch of stories like this, all based in actual historical dates, names, events, etc.... I spoke to Randy personally, and he acknowledged the background of that particular story.

BUT DO YOU SEE from this example, how all such things you "hear from a rancher" are not necessarily "proofs of treasure" ? The friend from church at the water cooler WAS A SMART GUY ! He was quite sincere. I mean, after all, he "read it in a book" . And after all, the book contained faded clippings from newspapers of the day. It contained real names, events, dates, etc... The skeletons and mission travel route existed. So ... WHO'S TO DOUBT THERE'S A TREASURE THERE ? But as you see, there's no treasure.

So too do I have a suspicion on this River of Gold book . I'm sure the author is sincere. I'm sure there's helpful stuff about where, in the world, that naturally occurring gold is bound to be found. But when it comes to the legend and cache and lost mine stuff: That all relies on "he said she said". And ... as you well know, when it comes to "treasure stories" , all skepticism and critical thinking is put aside. It's only natural to believe, "lest you be left out".

So look closely at that author's sources, and ask yourself: "says who?" and "could there be more plausible explanations?"

 

[HappyTrails55]

That link was my fault, I forgot a Dash...it's really <cprr.org/Museum/Pacific_RR_Surveys> ...anyhow it doesn't matter I guess, Gold was found in Paso Robles too quite by accident...or maybe not, anyhow you can read about the discovery of it in 1897 from the San Luis Tribune. In your search engine type in Wilmar Tognazzini and look for this website <wntog.weebly.com>...look for his books "100 Years Ago", scroll down to the year of 1897, click on that, scroll all the way down to Aug. 4th, 1897 and read. My old friend Wallace V. Oles, (Wally), now passed (2012) went to work on this article and found out that it was all documented and true and that the location of this find is the Old Estrada Bldg. on Pine Street also known as the Paso Saloon about one block from the Paso Robles Inn.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

Also another thing you have remember: That, yes, these were churches. But they were ALSO quasi-connected to the government as well. Ie.: a church & government cooperative. Where the church administered the land on behalf of the Spanish crown.

Well, then whatever "wealth" you could find in some story attributed to the churches, that some dude showed up with in the mother country he returned to, could have had ZERO to do with the mission back in alta CA. I mean, didn't Spain have wealth down in Mexico and south America ? As evidenced by the wealth being sent back on ships (ala Mel Fisher fame, etc....). So what's to have stopped the dude (if the story is even true) from getting his wealth down there ?

I know: It's much more of a cool story to attribute it to "lost cities of gold" in north America. That's why Hollywood movies never have a lack-luster ending. That wouldn't sell ratings. If Indiana jones had found empty caves, that wouldn't have made for the blockbuster movie ratings. If there weren't cryptrograms, poison darts, squiggle clues on rocks, etc.., then Indiana Jones would have been boring.

Such is our human instinct psychology. We want SSEEOOO hard to believe. Why do you think conspiracy theories are so easy to fall for and believe in ? Everyone wants to "shake up conventional thinking". So we grasp on to the salacious details, and push aside more plausible explanations.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

.... cprr.org/Museum/Pacific_RR_Surveys.....

Great link. I'm going to have fun checking that out. Thanx. But ... how does that have any bearing on the notions of "death traps" ? Or the notion that the CA missions were bedazzled with a wealth of gold ?

... Gold was found in Paso Robles too quite by accident...

Ok, sure. This is no secret. No secret that it's been found in the Las Padres Range coastal mountains, S. Cruz mountains, and various spot in the San Gabriels and desert, etc... But never economically as viable as the sierra nevada's were/are. And not of the caliber to back up the notions of the missions being decked out in gold . It's all speculation that is not borne out in the archaeological record. And any history mentions of supposed riches here, I believe will have "more plausible explanations" and are written off as "lore".

Because, think of it: Even right now, with all the technology and mechanization you have at your finger-tips: You could KNOCK YOURSELF SILLY around paso robles, looking for gold in it's natural form. And even with all the advanced refining, rock-crushing, etc... that you could avail yourself of ... : Yet you would come away with very little. A thimble full here , and a thimble full there, after hard-rock mining or panning or nugget hunting, etc... So how in the world does one think that indians, a few soliders, and a lone priest at a western outpost: Somehow come up with $100,000 in gold ? (at prices back then no less !) . It's obviously telephone game campfire stories gone awry. Sorry.

.... My old friend Wallace V. Oles, (Wally), now passed (2012) ...

I had a long interview with Wallace. He was a very nice guy. I had entered the museum there at the downtown park, when he was on-his regular volunteer duty slot there. I had sure to plan my drive and visit to coincide with his staff-hours time there. I showed him my museum credentials (I work at 2 museums up here), so as to ask to personally interview him. Then spent the next several hours, long after the museum had closed, pouring over books, questions about his San Miguel book, etc...

He turned me on to a spot that we found some nice relics, and a seated quarter at. And another spot he turned me on to produced a nice Mexican reale (1840s, I forget the exact date). I found out later that he passed away, about a year or two after that meeting. Great fellow !

 

[Crosse De Sign]

Cross De Sign, I have zoomed in on the text of the same pages you show. From the river of gold book.

Never have seen it, or showed anything from it...

 

[Tom_in_CA]

Never have seen it, or showed anything from it...

Then what were the 3rd, 4th, and 5th pix on post #159 of yours ?

 

[Crosse De Sign]

Where I was quoting HappyTrails55, post #155.

 

[Harvest]

Dead falls are one of the oldest but still functional

 

[Crosse De Sign]

Great link. I'm going to have fun checking that out. Thanx. But ... how does that have any bearing on the notions of "death traps" ? Or the notion that the CA missions were bedazzled with a wealth of gold ?



Ok, sure. This is no secret. No secret that it's been found in the Las Padres Range coastal mountains, S. Cruz mountains, and various spot in the San Gabriels and desert, etc... But never economically as viable as the sierra nevada's were/are. And not of the caliber to back up the notions of the missions being decked out in gold . It's all speculation that is not borne out in the archaeological record. And any history mentions of supposed riches here, I believe will have "more plausible explanations" and are written off as "lore".

Because, think of it: Even right now, with all the technology and mechanization you have at your finger-tips: You could KNOCK YOURSELF SILLY around paso robles, looking for gold in it's natural form. And even with all the advanced refining, rock-crushing, etc... that you could avail yourself of ... : Yet you would come away with very little. A thimble full here , and a thimble full there, after hard-rock mining or panning or nugget hunting, etc... So how in the world does one think that indians, a few soliders, and a lone priest at a western outpost: Somehow come up with $100,000 in gold ? (at prices back then no less !) . It's obviously telephone game campfire stories gone awry. Sorry.



I had a long interview with Wallace. He was a very nice guy. I had entered the museum there at the downtown park, when he was on-his regular volunteer duty slot there. I had sure to plan my drive and visit to coincide with his staff-hours time there. I showed him my museum credentials (I work at 2 museums up here), so as to ask to personally interview him. Then spent the next several hours, long after the museum had closed, pouring over books, questions about his San Miguel book, etc...

He turned me on to a spot that we found some nice relics, and a seated quarter at. And another spot he turned me on to produced a nice Mexican reale (1840s, I forget the exact date). I found out later that he passed away, about a year or two after that meeting. Great fellow !

Still think yer either way overdue to see the optometrist, withholding info, can't see the forest for the trees,
in denial & or not being forthcoming, or perhaps just haven't been in an area to experience the subtle arts
& craftiness of the Spanish & Jesuit secret treasure cashing & marking, often though not always, code &
trapping systems...

Or in other words: Simply protecting them that are of your own house, or more like powerful empire
of faith. Especially running all around them Sierra's, like you supposedly have. There has to be trails
& important areas...

This would include simple trail markers as well, easily seen in many westerns, some very elaborate
places once seldom traveled, that are to this day, still in very much remote & isolated locations.
...

 

[G.A.P.metal]

Well with all the "Death Traps" should be an abundance of dead animals large and small in many of the caves out west
Do you fellas find there is a lot of meat to eat around all those cave entrances ?

 

[Tom_in_CA]

Where I was quoting HappyTrails55, post #155.

Oh, My bad. I see now that was a quote, not an originating pix from you. Ok, then my thoughts/questions are directed at him then

 

[Tom_in_CA]

....in denial & or not being forthcoming,....

This would be true if we start with the premise that this notion of "Jesuit treasures" and "death traps" and "cryptograms on rocks" is true. If that implicit inference is true, then yes: I'm "in denial" and "blind", etc...

However, if those notions are NOT true , then the finger merely points the other direction. Then it would be you who is "in denial", "blind", and so forth.

Hence the only thing your post has done, is to "Presume your own point of view, as evidence of your proof for it"


If the proof were in-the-pudding , by looking at net results of finds, I think you'll see that my collections (which hold multiple titles in CA, if not the USA), speak loudly. Now if someone's got a Jesuit treasure, where it was found via squiggle clues on rocks, while avoiding death traps: Then sure, I'd stand corrected.

But alas we all know where this would go : Those that subscribe to the unconventional notions like that, will tell you that they can't show you the treasures. For fear of the IRS, thieves that would target their homes, claim-jumpers, etc... So no proof is forthcoming. But rest assured: It's all true !

 

[Ryano]

Do you (anyone here whose boots are on the ground) think there are still places where man has not yet trod since the Spanish/Jesuits set these "death traps" for the unwary explorer?

 

[3cylbill]

death traps every dang cellar hole is a death trap , just make sure you find the WELL first so you don't fall in and watch out for broken glass and skunks..don't forget the stinkin skunks and oh yea the ticks that burrow into your body ..yup them cellar holes are REAL death traps ...BE CAREFUL

 

[Crosse De Sign]

Well with all the "Death Traps" should be an abundance of dead animals large and small in many of the caves out west
Do you fellas find there is a lot of meat to eat around all those cave entrances ?

Only live rats & snakes, an occasional buck or turkey track, maybe a pretty healthy, say 100+ lb. cougar
that's stalking the hunter. Smaller bobcats, that's about it, nothing dead from the heavy earth laden
boulder traps only man can possibly spring.

Some above, others below ground. All tricky, so you have to know what your looking at...
But a detectorist, or a tourist, someone riding across the land on their iron horse or
mule, will not very likely ever even notice even a single marker for what it is...
Much less ever get themselves anywhere near a dangerous trap, knowingly.
...
...

 

[Crosse De Sign]

Do you (anyone here whose boots are on the ground) think there are still places where man has not yet trod since the Spanish/Jesuits set these "death traps" for the unwary explorer?

It's possible there are those yet to be found, gone unnoticed or left alone.
They are very much secreted, so you must know what to look for. But the
remote areas sought after in the past, are only a few ever trod in this era.

But the unwary explorer would not likely just happen onto one. Unless they
were happened to be digging a well under boulders, or found one in a shaft.

That's the hidden below ground kind. sandy1 shared a story of discovery one.
When you think of death traps, think areas in hills, mountains or deserts, where
there are a lot of rocks & boulders. They are the most likely, to possibly have 'em.
...

 

[ancient_ghost2004]

This would be true if we start with the premise that this notion of "Jesuit treasures" and "death traps" and "cryptograms on rocks" is true. If that implicit inference is true, then yes: I'm "in denial" and "blind", etc...

However, if those notions are NOT true , then the finger merely points the other direction. Then it would be you who is "in denial", "blind", and so forth.

Hence the only thing your post has done, is to "Presume your own point of view, as evidence of your proof for it"


If the proof were in-the-pudding , by looking at net results of finds, I think you'll see that my collections (which hold multiple titles in CA, if not the USA), speak loudly. Now if someone's got a Jesuit treasure, where it was found via squiggle clues on rocks, while avoiding death traps: Then sure, I'd stand corrected.

But alas we all know where this would go : Those that subscribe to the unconventional notions like that, will tell you that they can't show you the treasures. For fear of the IRS, thieves that would target their homes, claim-jumpers, etc... So no proof is forthcoming. But rest assured: It's all true !

The eyes see what the eyes see. If your blind to the obvious that's in plain sight then that's on you, but don't blast someone for seeing things different the way that you do sir

 

[Crosse De Sign]

This would be true if we start with the premise that this notion of "Jesuit treasures" and "death traps" and "cryptograms on rocks" is true. If that implicit inference is true, then yes: I'm "in denial" and "blind", etc...

However, if those notions are NOT true , then the finger merely points the other direction. Then it would be you who is "in denial", "blind", and so forth.

Hence the only thing your post has done, is to "Presume your own point of view, as evidence of your proof for it"


If the proof were in-the-pudding , by looking at net results of finds, I think you'll see that my collections (which hold multiple titles in CA, if not the USA), speak loudly. Now if someone's got a Jesuit treasure, where it was found via squiggle clues on rocks, while avoiding death traps: Then sure, I'd stand corrected.

But alas we all know where this would go : Those that subscribe to the unconventional notions like that, will tell you that they can't show you the treasures. For fear of the IRS, thieves that would target their homes, claim-jumpers, etc... So no proof is forthcoming. But rest assured: It's all true !

Whatever. If you were shown one, you'd likely deny it, unless you could see it work up close...