Melted Gold & Silver

[ArizonaWren]

I was reading the Beekrock trilogy and a question came to mind; not really related to that subject, but I'm sure someone here can help.

My Father's house burned down a few years ago, the fire was very hot and the home was completely consumed. He had a safe that he built himself out of plate steel approx. 1" thick welded into a box with a standard, round safe door. Inside the safe he had about 50 Silver Dollars, 10 Krugerands, several smaller Gold Coins (Canadian Mapleleafs I think?), some bullets, knives and other miscellaneous items.

We salvaged the safe and had a Locksmith drill the lid so we could open it and retrieve the contents. As can be expected everything was melted together in the bottom of the box. We have a nice branch like clump of Silver with several part coins visable which makes for an interesting piece. We were unable to locate any of the gold coins or any gold at all.

We always assumed that the gold must have melted first and either went into the steel sides of the safe or the silver itself. A comment made in the Beekrock thread led me to believe this probably isn't correct. What are the melting points of these two metals? Is it possible that the gold would have completely melted away and gone into another metal when the silver did not completely melt?

I'm starting to wonder, memories being what they are, if the gold may have been someplace else in the house and not in the safe at all. We still have the safe, put a new lid on it and it functions great, we jokingly refer to it as the gold safe but a safecracker would be terribly disappointed if he heard us mention that and then broke into it as it is relatively empty now.

Any thoughts or information on the melting points would be greatly appreciated.

- Wren

[mattjd]

Is it possible that the gold is inside the silver?

Matt

[stoney56]

24K gold melts at 1945*F and fine silver at 1761*F. Also you can see that gold coinage melts at 1724*F
http://www.gold-arts.com/metalsnotes.html

[ArizonaWren]

Matt and Stoney,

Thank you for your quick response.

Matt at first I thought the Gold might have gone into the silver. But after reading a reply to the Beekrok thread; maybe it was from Stoney, I realized that the Silver would have melted first. In this case the Silver did indeed melt, in fact most of it is just a big, glob of metal, but there are several coins clearly visible. One in coin is sticking out from the mass almost as if it were standing up.

I think I will get a picture or two of this metal so you can see it.

Thank you again for your help, now I'm sure that it must not be in the silver.

- Wren

[gldhntr]

possibly the gold was nearer the door, therefore it may have gotten alot hotter alot faster than the silver....there is a possibility that if this happened,, it may have melted and eased its way under the door, leaving a gold to reform outside the safe on the floor in the debris of the fire.........gldhntr

[ArizonaWren]

Gldhntr,
There is a small corner in the bottom of this safe that molten metal could have run out of.

I'm not sure what part of the safe would have been the hottest as this was on the 2nd floor of the home was completely burned to the ground. We found it in the debri on the concrete floor.

Could the gold have melted completely when the silver did not?

Thanks for your help.
- Wren

[rovnrbl]

atomic weight of gold is about 196, silver 107 making gold much heavier than silver. Melted silver should ride on top of gold in a contained space. Very possible the gold flowed out any crack/crevice given melting points about the same. Also may depend on how coins were stacked - if silver on top of the gold some of the gold or interior coins may be intact or partially so. You could weigh the mass and compare it to the weight of the estimated number of coins in the safe to estimate if gold is missing.

[stoney56]

I forgot that silver coins are only .900 pure. Canadian Maple Leaf is .9999 pure and krugerands are a bit less which makes a difference in the melting point. A silver dollar weighs .77344 oz.

[ArizonaWren]

More great information, I'm really glad I discovered this site. Thank you Rovnrbl and Stoney for your additional help!
- Wren

[gldhntr]

if the gold was by the door, and the door not a sealed door, then the hottest area would be around the door i would think, as the heat would only have to go around the door instead of through the metal box.. also the bottom being on the floor, and the back most likely against the wall, both of which would act to supress the heat untill they were ingulfed, while the front would likely see most of the fire. i have cleaned up after fire damages for over 10 years and have seen inside many metal boxes, like filing cabinets.. the papers around the front are most often burned, while the balance of the contents are only scorched or smoked up.. the bottom of nearly every one sustained the least damage as the floor insulates the box from the heat... i have found many globs of silver and gold after fires also,, the silver usually looks like lead, the gold will still be gold, with a little of it being blackened....if it is there, and you do not mind digging through the debris, it is most likely you will find it....diamonds are another indestructable item, that is found after fires..............gldhntr

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Inside the safe he had about 50 Silver Dollars, 10 Krugerands, several smaller Gold Coins (Canadian Mapleleafs I think?), some bullets, knives and other miscellaneous items.?

We have a nice branch like clump of Silver with several part coins visable which makes for an interesting piece.? We were unable to locate any of the gold coins or any gold at all.

A)? Since some of the silver (?) coins are still visible, I would assume that the meltng point of "900 fine" Gold was not reached. Some of the gold? mght have melted If it had been "present" usng the lead and silver as? solvents, however----.

The meltng point of pure lead is? ? ? ? ? 621 F
? ?"? ? ?"? ? ? ? ?"? ? ?"? ? "? ?silver "? ? ? ? 1761? F
? ?"? ? ?"? ? ? ? ?"? ? ?"? ? "? ?Gold"? ? ? ? ? 1945 F
? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?~~~~~~~~~~~~
Is it possible that the gold would have completely melted away and gone into another metal when the silver did not completely melt?

A) Sorry, no way.
? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I'm starting to wonder, memories being what they are, if the gold may have been someplace else in the house and not in the safe at all.?

A)? It has to be somewhere else.
? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?~~~~~~~~~~~~~

p.s. If you reach the melting temp of gold in a mechanical mixture of molten Pb, Ag , you form an alloy. They do not separate, if they did, it would make assaying far easier sigh. So I doubt that any Au. alone would have run out from under the door.

You can always run a a simple spectrographic analyis to see how much Au is in the alloy, or even a simple fire assay.

Ask away if you wish more information.
? ? ? ? ? ? ?

[Vrent]

Since some of the silver (?) coins are still visible, I would assume that the melting point of "900 fine" Gold was not reached. Some of the gold might have melted If it had been "present" using the lead and silver as solvents, however----.

these coins may be present because they were on the bottom of the pile, the temp did not necessarily have to be uniform, it is possible for silver to combine with gold. the material on the bottom would not have reached as high a temp as that to the outside of the pile. the difference of less than 200 degrees F is not that much when you get into the range of 1900 degrees

to test this theory burn a tied bundle of newspapers you will get paper that does not burn at the bottom and in the middle. or if you have the extra $$ pile up some silver dollars and place a couple of gold pieces on top. I assure you the gold will melt and the outer silver dollars melt, but at the base of the stack you will have coins that you can read. you will get an alloy depending upon silver to gold ratio that could very well look like silver and nothing else, yet still contain a good deal of gold content.

my best guess is that the gold was not in the safe, except for insurance purposes.at least it would have been in my safe, right along with my 1916 d dimes and a few other coins in my collection all of which would have been photographed prior to the fire :::::::whistling::::::

[Siegfried Schlagrule]

Is it possible that someone stole your gold and abandoned the silver as too heavy and set the fire to cover his tracks? exanimo, ss

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

these coins may be present because they were on the bottom of the pile, the temp did not necessarily have to be uniform, it is possible for silver to combine with gold. the material on the bottom would not have reached as high a temp as that to the outside of the pile. the difference of less than 200 degrees F is not that much when you get into the range of 1900 degrees

A) possible for the smaller Gold coins, but highly improbable for the larger ones. In assaying that extra 200 degrees is slow to reach, even in an insulated oven with blowers. you are supposing that the Gold coins are all on the outside exposed to max heat. Frankly, human nature puts them in neat piles of similar coins, on one side or the other.
~~~~~~~~~~~~

to test this theory? burn a tied bundle of newspapers you will get paper that does not burn at the bottom and in the middle. or if you have the extra $$? pile up some silver dollars and place a couple of gold pieces on top. I assure you the gold will melt and the outer silver dollars melt, but at the base of the stack you will have coins that you can read. you will get an alloy depending upon silver to gold ratio that could very well look like silver and nothing else, yet still contain a good deal of gold content.

A) I doubt this, since the combustion point of paper is not high enough, especially in the open.. Normal smelting/assaying requires gas or charcoal over an extended period of time IN an insuated oven. The slight movement of air over the mass when opening the door can change the assay results due to difference in temp.

As to the paper not buring in those sections, it is simply because the paper is packed so close, that there isn't enough oxygen movement to sustain combustion, hence much cooler .

~~~~~~~~~
my best guess is that the gold was not in the safe,

A ) Agreed

except for insurance purposes.at least it would have been in my safe, right along with my 1916 d dimes and a few other coins in my collection all of which would have been photographed prior to the fire? :::::::whistling::::::? ?
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