At what point does garbage become a relic?

[Notsuredomus]

When metal detecting I always take any trash I find with me. Trash in our countries wild places is an ugly contamination of the natural beauty that other come to these places to experience. The areas I have detected in do not allow the removal of (artifacts) from the ground. So at what point does a bunch of old garbage become an artifact? Since we are basing our laws on the idea that the difference between an artifact and trash is age, couldnt I then conclude that by leaving my garbage in the forest rather than packing it out as Ive always done would not be an act of littering? Perhaps I am not littering our Nations Wild places afteral, Perhaps I am creating a historic record for the generations of nature lovers of the future. Wouldn't it be a greater asset to the historical records is we took the rusting pieces of iron with us and recorded the location and relevant information and images in a database where it can all be placed cross referenced and searched for possible historic significance? Letting these items sit in the ground until then are just a pocket of iron oxide will do the historic records no good at all. This way of thinking is not preserving history. Maybe archaeology should be dropped from our colleges because digging up the past is no longer a record of our past. Artifacts are no good to the historic record and the pursuit of truth until somebody digs it up. So is it garbage or is it an artifact? either way, it should not be contaminating our National forests and parks. The wilderness experience comes from the beauty of an unspoiled nature. Man made items should be kept in man made places. The forest is not a dump. Nor is it a museum. So I say lets do the right thing, lets break the law.

So... You have heard my opinion on this subject. Now I would like to hear you'rs. Please let me know whether you agree or disagree with me and why. I am pretty open minded maybe you will change my mind.

 

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[silvermagnet]

I agree except that you should leave random trash and contribute yourself to destruction of wildlife but we all are archaeologists in our own right as we find relics and keep a good albeit loose, record of them.

 

[Hillbilly Joe]

I think garbage very well can be of great historical significance. In "lost" societies, when we know little, many times it is a pile of trash and bones that we learn what they ate, how it was prepared, broken dishes, cutting instruments, spoons and other items have a way of ending up in a pile of trash.

 

[Notsuredomus]

I couldn't agree more HillBilly

Well said HillBilly. Thanks for the input

 

[JunkShopFiddler]

I agree with you, but the problem is you are making what is called, "good common sense". For some reason people with common sense rarely show up in positions of authority these days in America...It has almost become a prerequisite for a person seeking authority that they have no common sense whatsoever. How come in places like Britain detectorists who make historical finds are celebrated, while Americans can get arrested for sticking the tip of a garden trowel in the ground?

We have an area here in a nearby National Forest where it is documented that agents of the KGC held meetings, and near that location is a tall shelter cave that was used by oxen and cattle dealers as a corral to hold the livestock for auctions during which the animals were sold off to settlers gearing up for the trip to California via the Oregon Trail, as a popular "jumping off point" was nearby. I have researched these places and have hiked to them many times, they are deep in the forest and amidst limestone outcroppings and I dream about detecting there. But digging and\or taking anything is grounds for arrest and a hefty fine. So everything stays there benefiting no one.

 

[Hillbilly Joe]

I agree with you, but the problem is you are making what is called, "good common sense". For some reason people with common sense rarely show up in positions of authority these days in America...It has almost become a prerequisite for a person seeking authority that they have no common sense whatsoever. How come in places like Britain detectorists who make historical finds are celebrated, while Americans can get arrested for sticking the tip of a garden trowel in the ground?

We have an area here in a nearby National Forest where it is documented that agents of the KGC held meetings, and near that location is a tall shelter cave that was used by oxen and cattle dealers as a corral to hold the livestock for auctions during which the animals were sold off to settlers gearing up for the trip to California via the Oregon Trail, as a popular "jumping off point" was nearby. I have researched these places and have hiked to them many times, they are deep in the forest and amidst limestone outcroppings and I dream about detecting there. But digging and\or taking anything is grounds for arrest and a hefty fine. So everything stays there benefiting no one.

I agree, common sense is lacking, and yeah, I lived on the KS/MO most my life, General Sterling Price came through our back yard with some Yankees in hot pursuit! Cant always get permission, But here is the difference. I understand when many of these laws were made, they had the idea that these places had to be protected, because we were running out of wild places. Yes, they wanted those things to stay right there, and they came to the decision that no one should have them, because they are not gonna fight over who should have the honor of digging them up. I get that, a big blanket no, instead of hey you hurt my feelings. I firmly believe, without a shadow of a doubt what is in my signature. What is right, and what is law is not always the same thing. So, you gotta situation where you can accept things as they are, or go change them. Just my two cents. Even as a Police Chief, I understood, some of the things in those books didnt make good sense, and individual discretion was the order of the day. Two sides to the argument though, who says you, and you alone should have the right? See, thats the problem, you let one, you let all.

 

[ivan salis]

50 years is often the "point" at which most archies think a item magically transforms from trash item to relic.

 

[JunkShopFiddler]

Two sides to the argument though, who says you, and you alone should have the right? See, thats the problem, you let one, you let all.

Respectfully, I have no desire for it to be me and only me. I believe the State should have a system by which individuals could buy a license of sorts to detect or hunt relics or treasure on public lands like Nat. Forests. Indiana has licensed dear hunts in State Parks and other Places like military bases and the permission is given by first come first served or by lottery drawing. As far as letting "everyone in" I'm convinced that most people who jump on the treasure hunting bandwagon because they saw a TV show or some other reason will not be the type of people who will want to carry detecting equipment and 20 to 30 pounds of food, water, and survival gear on an all day grueling, rock scrambling, creek fording hike in the wilderness just to get to these places I am thinking of, mostly because I never see another living soul when I'm there...Cheers.

 

[Hillbilly Joe]

I agree, lottery or some such thing, but like everything else, humans would fiddle with it until it was nothing like it was intended. I agree, many of the places I have been, I have not seen another human and many of the traces of who had been before were old. I dont think we are in disagreement, but I think it is easier for them to just say no, as they cant go themselves some times!

 

[Tom_in_CA]

Ivan salis has the answer right. If you wanted to get technical on when an item becomes an "archaeological resource", the oft-times-used benchmark, is 50 yrs. old. However, seriously now folks; Since when has ANY of us ever had some archaeologist (who just happened to be hiding behind a tree waiting to come out and pounce on you) come up to you, riffle through your apron, doing the math on the age of each item found ? I've been at this for about 38 yrs now, and have YET to ever have someone come up and deduce the age of pulltabs, and have a calculator in-hand doing the math on the age of each coin.

So a part of me, when I read such questions like this, has to ask myself: "who cares what the magic age answer is?" I mean, unless you were planning on wearing a neon orange suit, and traipsing around in front of rangers begging for attention, then ..... really ..... 99.9% of the time whenever you ever hear of some actually RUNNING AFOUL of any such things, they're persons who lacked any clue, and just waltzed in broad daylight into sensitive monuments, or posted places, or any other such site that you could/should have known (or could/should have practiced a little more discretion in your timing anyhow).

 

[Tom_in_CA]

And junk-shop-fiddler, I know "permits" and "licenses" sound sseeeoooo inviting don't they ? Those words "roll off the tongue" right? Conjurs up images of just being able to go nilly willy any where, and just flash that baby to any busy-bodies, and they slink away embarassed for having questioned you. Right? Ah but I wish it were that easy. Trust me: you do NOT want to suggest "licenses and permits" for metal detecting. Anytime any such thing has ever been implemented anywhere, you'll notice they're always riddled with silly restrictions. Like: "not within 10 ft. of a tree", or "... but no digging", or "on sandy beaches only" or " ... digger shall not exceed 3 inches", and so forth. And then worse yet, any places that have such things, oftentime just ditch them altogether, and prohibit it at later points. WHY? Because if it's a "permit" on their list of permits, then guess what? That just perpetually means its on their radar, at annual meetings going over their matters, as "something that needs regulation and attention". At some point in the future, someone there is bound to look at that and say "gee, do we really want all these yahoos going around digging holes and steeling the past?". So you see, sometimes the LESS attention is better, not the MORE attention. Much better that laws/rules are simply silent on the subject. Just avoid busy-bodies and lookie-lous.

I wish it weren't that way. I wish every last archie and gardener rolled out red carpets for us. I wish detecting didn't have any "connotations". But alas, this isn't going to be the case. You can certainly knock yourself silly trying to get every last person to love and condone you if you want. But, for me .... if someone doesn't like it, then that's just one person I avoid in the future. Kinda like nose-picking: Not necessarily illegal, but .... sometimes you just need to practice a little discretion in your timing, so as not to swat hornet's nests.

 

[JunkShopFiddler]

Yeah, I know, you guys are right, and I am thinking in an "ideal world scenario" but more and more places in my community are becoming off limits to detecting including parks and schools. I got ran off by the police twice lately at two different ball field parking lots I that have gotten lots of silver before and several hundreds of dollars in clad. If I ever have to buy a new detector I will most likely have to give up the hobby as there are precious few areas near that are still open to detecting and therefore no way to make a new detector pay for itself as one could do just a few years ago...And being 60 years old and unemployed for 18 months I surely ain't got 600 plus dollars to throw at "no digging allowed" signs...(please excuse my ranting and thanks for listening!)...HH in 2014.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

... I got ran off by the police twice lately at two different ball field parking lots I that have gotten lots of silver before and several hundreds of dollars in clad...

Let me guess: you were detecting in the day-time, right ?

 

[JunkShopFiddler]

Let me guess: you were detecting in the day-time, right ?

Yep, all day just like the last 35 years and then one day...boom...you can't do that here...Plus our parks and schoolyards have always been closed at sun down...500$ fine for being there after dark whether your detecting or just hangin' out doing nothing, been that way since they were popular makeout spots in the 70s.

 

[jeff of pa]

bold print is not necessary

garbage becomes a relic the moment I take it home & add it to my collection



[h=2][/h]

 

[Gold Maven]

I'm not saying laws should be broken, but a little excitement in one's life is good for the soul.

One thing I have learned in my 50 yrs., is that old age will creep up on you like a mountain lion, and it is terrible to have regrets of things you didn't do.

Wild places can still be enjoyed without that small treasure that was buried where no one could see it. After some one's hard work, it can be appreciated, and added to our nation's wealth.

 

[xrunndonex]

Even as a Police Chief

I didn't go 50 in that 45! I didn't do it!™

 

[Tom_in_CA]

I'm not saying laws should be broken, but a little excitement in one's life is good for the soul. One thing I have learned in my 50 yrs., is that old age will creep up on you like a mountain lion, and it is terrible to have regrets of things you didn't do. Wild places can still be enjoyed without that small treasure that was buried where no one could see it. After some one's hard work, it can be appreciated, and added to our nation's wealth.

When I look back over my ~38 yrs. of this, I have to admit some of the funnest memories (war stories that we tell over and over again to our buddies) are often the "cliff-hanger" dangerous moments, surprises, etc.... Dangerous stuff like being at the surf's edge during 20 ft. breakers storm-erosion-hunting (and hanging on for dear life as rushing waters try to sweep you out to sea). Or times like having to hit-the-deck in the dark to ... uh .... avoid approaching busy-bodies, etc... Sure, it was never "fun at the time", but .... a year later, you begin to relish those "close-call" moments and laugh about them.