Unlikely marriage

jhamner

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Dec 2, 2008
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I recently purchased this saber and scabbard knowing it was a married piece, but what intrigues me is how a Rhode Island sword could end up (fitting nicely) with what appears to be a Kenansville, N.C. scabbard. Personally, I can't think of too many scenarios where this would happen, but I would like a perspective from some of you experts out there. Were the pieces put together from a bunch of spare parts after the war? Were they the result of battlefield pickups? Did some amateur collector make the adaptation? Other? I guess these are all rhetorical questions, but nevertheless, I would love to hear from you. If nothing else, I may have a marriage that has lasted 156 to 160 years--quite a long time to stay together!
 

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devldog

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Great looking sword & scabbord. That is one long marriage indeed. Hard to say how this sword & scabbord came together, but it makes for a unique piece of History. It really looks nice on your mantle.
 

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jhamner

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Dec 2, 2008
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Great looking sword & scabbord. That is one long marriage indeed. Hard to say how this sword & scabbord came together, but it makes for a unique piece of History. It really looks nice on your mantle.


Thanks so much for your kind words! I was beginning to think there was something wrong with my post, although it's really hard to comment on something that no one really knows how it came to be! In any event, I really appreciate your post!
 

oredigger62

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That is an awesome set. I can't help you with any info... but there is nothing wrong with your post. On the home page a post gets dropped off screen quickly unless somebody posts to it. Thanks for sharing !!!
 

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jhamner

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Dec 2, 2008
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That is an awesome set. I can't help you with any info... but there is nothing wrong with your post. On the home page a post gets dropped off screen quickly unless somebody posts to it. Thanks for sharing !!!

Many, many thanks for your post! I really appreciate it!
 

devldog

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Yes sir. I appreciate your sharing this piece of History with us.
 

releventchair

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Not an area I have experience in.

Pre civil war the military academy in Virginia ,and previous wars shared the same men and probably equipment weapon suppliers.
Arsenals may have had one supplier for blades and another for scabbards.
If not...the specs were the same allowing interchangeability. More for specifications consistency than interchangeability but I really don' t know.

Neat pair!
 

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jhamner

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Dec 2, 2008
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Not an area I have experience in.

Pre civil war the military academy in Virginia ,and previous wars shared the same men and probably equipment weapon suppliers.
Arsenals may have had one supplier for blades and another for scabbards.
If not...the specs were the same allowing interchangeability. More for specifications consistency than interchangeability but I really don' t know.

Neat pair!

That is very interesting information that I did not know! Thanks so much for sharing! Then it seems they could have possibly been together from the git-go.
 

Davers

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This is also above my knowledge level, I don't own any CW Swords or Sabers , there are a few guy's in our Relic club that know them like the "back of their hands" Dealers mostly, & collectors .

Also Swords are above my pay grade, maybe someday ill get a Deal on one or win one.

Then I will research them more.
Good Post tho.
Davers
 

Robot

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Pre Civil War...Swords and Scabbards...Went together like...Socks and Shoes!

scabbard dating.JPG

It was quite common for soldiers to match up their Scabbard from the company of "Kenansville" of NC to Swords made by... Henry Mansfield and Estus Lamb of RI.
Swords were manufactured by Mansfield and Lamb starting in 1861.

Especially if they lost or misplaced their original equipment.

Your Scabbard shows the marking "V" which I would presume is part of the XVIII marking for Kenansville.

Could it have been possible?...That when Mansfield and Lamb were threatened with cancellation of their contract with the Government, due partly to inferior Scabbards... that maybe..Just Maybe...they purchased the balance of these fine Scabbards...from the NC company of Kenansville?

Confederate Cavalry Saber and Scabbard by Louis Froelich.
This fine saber is known as a Kenansville “Type I” produced by the Confederate States Armory in Kenansville, NC. Throat bears Roman # XVIII. This fine saber was proudly displayed in Steve Mullinax’s fine collection for many years and is a stellar example.



Lamb Sword.jpg

Henry Mansfield and Estus Lamb owned a scythe factory in Forestdale, RI
THE COMPANY - This company was a very successful manufacturing firm in the decades preceding the Civil War, but during that time none of their production was devoted to sword making. Newton Darling began making scythes at Forestdale, Rhode Island (a small village in the rural town of North Smithfield) in about 1824. H.S. Mansfield joined the company shortly thereafter, and in 1839 Ansel Hollman joined the firm. In 1841, when Darling sold out, it became Mansfield and Holman, and later became Mansfield and Lamb when Mr. Estus Lamb became a partner.
The firm of Mansfield and Lamb owned the entire village of Forestdale (61 houses) including all public buildings. This system of literally creating a town from scratch in order to support a mill became known as the 'New England System of Manufacture,' and the very first example of this system was Slatersville, another village that is literally a stone's throw down the road from the Mansfield and Lamb works. As was mentioned above, they had the scythe manufactory and in 1860 they added a cotton mill.
It is stated in an old Rhode Island history, in the section on the Town of Smithfield, that the firm employed 250 workers, used 3 tons of steel, 100 grindstones and 1,400 bales of cotton. Prior to 1860, the scythe works manufactured 10,000 dozen scythes annually - a number that would decrease to 8,000 dozen annually by 1870. It would have been a logical move for the firm to manufacture swords if there was a profit to be made. In 1861, the company sought a United States Ordnance Department contract for arms and was awarded one on August 28, 1861, for 10,000 cavalry sabers. All 10,000 were required to be inspected and delivered by February of 1862. However, as of April 5, 1862, the firm had delivered only 6,500 light cavalry sabers. The pace of deliveries did not meet the conditions in the original contract, making it void. Therefore, Henry Mansfield traveled to Washington to appear before the U.S. Commission investigating ordnance contracts. This Commission created by Congress was a vehicle for weeding out poorly performing contractors and those contracts that were overcharging the government for goods.
In this case, Mansfield and Lamb was an American manufacturer that was making all of the saber parts on site and had finally worked out the usual problems inherent with manufacturing a new product. Hearing out Henry Mansfield, the Commission ruled in his favor and allowed the company to continue delivery of 2,000 completed sabers that had initially been rejected. These sabers were not up to U.S. standards because the scabbards were made of malleable iron suspension ring bands, and the regulation required hardened steel scabbards and mounts. Notwithstanding this defect, they were accepted at a reduced price. Many other contractors did not have the same luck with this Commission, having their contracts terminated and on-hand sabers not accepted. It is speculated that the Ordnance Department and the Commission favored domestic manufacturers over contractors that were primarily parts assemblers or importers.
During the remainder of the Civil War, the company was able to secure additional contracts with the Ordnance Department, eventually delivering 37,508 sabers." - Thillmann
 

Last edited:
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jhamner

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Dec 2, 2008
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This is also above my knowledge level, I don't own any CW Swords or Sabers , there are a few guy's in our Relic club that know them like the "back of their hands" Dealers mostly, & collectors .

Also Swords are above my pay grade, maybe someday ill get a Deal on one or win one.

Then I will research them more.
Good Post tho.
Davers


Thanks so much for your post--sorry for the delay!
 

OP
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J

jhamner

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Dec 2, 2008
646
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View attachment 1431324

It was quite common for soldiers to match up their Scabbard from the company of "Kenansville" of NC to Swords made by... Henry Mansfield and Estus Lamb of RI.
Swords were manufactured by Mansfield and Lamb starting in 1861.

Especially if they lost or misplaced their original equipment.

Your Scabbard shows the marking "V" which I would presume is part of the XVIII marking for Kenansville.

Could it have been possible?...That when Mansfield and Lamb were threatened with cancellation of their contract with the Government, due partly to inferior Scabbards... that maybe..Just Maybe...they purchased the balance of these fine Scabbards...from the NC company of Kenansville?

Confederate Cavalry Saber and Scabbard by Louis Froelich.
This fine saber is known as a Kenansville “Type I” produced by the Confederate States Armory in Kenansville, NC. Throat bears Roman # XVIII. This fine saber was proudly displayed in Steve Mullinax’s fine collection for many years and is a stellar example.



View attachment 1431325

Henry Mansfield and Estus Lamb owned a scythe factory in Forestdale, RI
THE COMPANY - This company was a very successful manufacturing firm in the decades preceding the Civil War, but during that time none of their production was devoted to sword making. Newton Darling began making scythes at Forestdale, Rhode Island (a small village in the rural town of North Smithfield) in about 1824. H.S. Mansfield joined the company shortly thereafter, and in 1839 Ansel Hollman joined the firm. In 1841, when Darling sold out, it became Mansfield and Holman, and later became Mansfield and Lamb when Mr. Estus Lamb became a partner.
The firm of Mansfield and Lamb owned the entire village of Forestdale (61 houses) including all public buildings. This system of literally creating a town from scratch in order to support a mill became known as the 'New England System of Manufacture,' and the very first example of this system was Slatersville, another village that is literally a stone's throw down the road from the Mansfield and Lamb works. As was mentioned above, they had the scythe manufactory and in 1860 they added a cotton mill.
It is stated in an old Rhode Island history, in the section on the Town of Smithfield, that the firm employed 250 workers, used 3 tons of steel, 100 grindstones and 1,400 bales of cotton. Prior to 1860, the scythe works manufactured 10,000 dozen scythes annually - a number that would decrease to 8,000 dozen annually by 1870. It would have been a logical move for the firm to manufacture swords if there was a profit to be made. In 1861, the company sought a United States Ordnance Department contract for arms and was awarded one on August 28, 1861, for 10,000 cavalry sabers. All 10,000 were required to be inspected and delivered by February of 1862. However, as of April 5, 1862, the firm had delivered only 6,500 light cavalry sabers. The pace of deliveries did not meet the conditions in the original contract, making it void. Therefore, Henry Mansfield traveled to Washington to appear before the U.S. Commission investigating ordnance contracts. This Commission created by Congress was a vehicle for weeding out poorly performing contractors and those contracts that were overcharging the government for goods.
In this case, Mansfield and Lamb was an American manufacturer that was making all of the saber parts on site and had finally worked out the usual problems inherent with manufacturing a new product. Hearing out Henry Mansfield, the Commission ruled in his favor and allowed the company to continue delivery of 2,000 completed sabers that had initially been rejected. These sabers were not up to U.S. standards because the scabbards were made of malleable iron suspension ring bands, and the regulation required hardened steel scabbards and mounts. Notwithstanding this defect, they were accepted at a reduced price. Many other contractors did not have the same luck with this Commission, having their contracts terminated and on-hand sabers not accepted. It is speculated that the Ordnance Department and the Commission favored domestic manufacturers over contractors that were primarily parts assemblers or importers.
During the remainder of the Civil War, the company was able to secure additional contracts with the Ordnance Department, eventually delivering 37,508 sabers." - Thillmann


Wow!!!! This information is phenomenal!!!! I am so impressed that a total stranger would sit down and write all of this wonderful information for me--I am truly grateful! Sorry it took me so long to reply--have been gone for several days. Thanks again!
 

Robot

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Proceeds from War?

Further researching the Confederate Scabbard and how it might have been matched up with a Union Sword?

It was stated that the Union Forces in 1863 captured and plundered the CSA Arms Factory in Kenansville, North Carolina who manufactured your Scabbard.

They may have brought back these superior Scabbards to match up with Mansfield and Lamb Swords.

This may explain the ground down markings on your Scabbard.

[FONT=&quot]The “Sword Maker for the Confederacy,” Louis Froelich moved his company (formerly known as the [/FONT]CSA Arms Factory[FONT=&quot]) to Kenansville, North Carolina after a yellow epidemic epidemic struck Wilmington in 1862. The factory produced numerous swords, utensils, and sabers for the Confederacy’s fighting forces. [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]In the fall of 1862, the company started operations and supplied necessary arms for the Confederate States Army. During the American Civil War, the company produced various products: eighteen surgical sets, 3,700 lance spears, 6,500 saber bayonets, 11,700 cavalry sabers, 2,700 officer’s sabers, 600 naval cutlasses, 800 artillery cutlasses, 300 saber belts, and 300 knapsacks.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]In an 1863 report, Union Major General John G. Foster and Lt. Col George W. Lewis more than likely referred to the Louis Froelich and Company. They reported that Union forces destroyed an armory containing approximately 2,500 sabres and various other weapons and equipment. [/FONT]
 

OP
OP
J

jhamner

Hero Member
Dec 2, 2008
646
729
Further researching the Confederate Scabbard and how it might have been matched up with a Union Sword?

It was stated that the Union Forces in 1863 captured and plundered the CSA Arms Factory in Kenansville, North Carolina who manufactured your Scabbard.

They may have brought back these superior Scabbards to match up with Mansfield and Lamb Swords.

This may explain the ground down markings on your Scabbard.

The “Sword Maker for the Confederacy,” Louis Froelich moved his company (formerly known as the CSA Arms Factory) to Kenansville, North Carolina after a yellow epidemic epidemic struck Wilmington in 1862. The factory produced numerous swords, utensils, and sabers for the Confederacy’s fighting forces.

In the fall of 1862, the company started operations and supplied necessary arms for the Confederate States Army. During the American Civil War, the company produced various products: eighteen surgical sets, 3,700 lance spears, 6,500 saber bayonets, 11,700 cavalry sabers, 2,700 officer’s sabers, 600 naval cutlasses, 800 artillery cutlasses, 300 saber belts, and 300 knapsacks.

In an 1863 report, Union Major General John G. Foster and Lt. Col George W. Lewis more than likely referred to the Louis Froelich and Company. They reported that Union forces destroyed an armory containing approximately 2,500 sabres and various other weapons and equipment.



That is AWESOME!!! Thank you SO MUCH for all the research you have done--I wouldn't have had a clue where to begin! Many, many thanks once again!
 

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jhamner

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Dec 2, 2008
646
729
Awesome sword and scabbard

Thank you very much! I thought I had paid too much, but now I'm glad I bought it!




P.S. To all-- Won't be able to have computer access until Apr.9th, but will check back then. Thanks to all who have so graciously given of their time and expertise in answering my questions!
 

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