Lethal Lead

[Joe G from Md]

Years ago had permission to hunt a property with an abandoned Church. The Church was used as hospital after battle of Antietam, found these fired bullets just outside window where amputated limbs where piled. A few of these may have been fatal.

 

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[devldog]

Interesting info there. Thanks for the lesson. If all those bullets and ordinance could talk, the stories they could tell.

 

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[RustyRelics]

The one key thing a bullet causes is not just a hole, but a shockwave. A knife, arrow, or any pointy object can cause a hole, but a bullet will cause massive internal pressure gains once it enters the body by reaching mere shockwave alone. The shockwave alone in a bullet has been known to fracture bones in some patients without actually physically touching the bone. The term “permanent cavity” is the area where the shockwave expands upon entering the body, obliterating the organs, tissue, and thin blood vessels, and arteries within the human body. Take a .380 hollow point for example. Doesn’t seem like a large round at all by terms of what size bullets used in the Civil War, but the .380 hollow points cause more damage now than they would have back then, because of the changes in powder, charge, and the hollow point design. A soldier would have been lucky to have a through, and through wound considering they’d have to first fish the bullet out of their body. Take into consideration that the bullet is traveling at upwards of 1200fps in a musket alone, and the sheer speed, and impact on the human skin alone causes the outer tissue to ripple from the shock wave, and as the bullet enters it only gets bigger. I worked less enforcement long enough to see the ugly side of gunshot victims, and the shear magnitude a modern handgun bullet would do to someone’s body, and have seen the effects of hunting rifles as well. The main causes of death in patients who suffer gunshot wounds is hemorrhaging, blood loss due to severed artery, shock to vital organs from the production of the shockwave, embolism, or even asphyxiation due to blood entering the lungs.

I know the answer you want is: are all mushroomed bullets ones fired into someone’s body?
The answer is more harder to answer when dealing with bullets that are 150+ years ago due to the fact that we’ll just never know unless you find some supporting evidence, ie: found next to many other ones along with pieces of surgical equipment. With the advent of modern science finding which bullets entered the body of a modern gun, which gun fired it, and who it belongs to is a lot simpler now due to the fact that modern firearms have rifling grooves that cause small striations in the bullets. After 5-6 shots a microscopic amount of the rifling is changed due to the pressure of the bullet, exploding gases, and the bullet itself twisting its way down the barrel.

I was a Crime Scene Analyst, under the main Major Crimes unit, and Homicide Unit, worked under the Chief Crime Scene Analyst, and Luminol, hydrogen peroxide, and sodium hydroxide was used on crime scenes we worked, I was no chemist, but bullets nowadays that are shot in to someone show signs of it via blood staining, tissue, and other bodily fluids. Now if a bullet from 150+ years ago could be found in an area of where there wasn’t the possibility of moisture, and other contaminants Luminol would be a possible way to determine if it hit a human body, but it’s still not definitive. Sorry for the long post, but the forensic science behind bullet wounds, trace evidence, and other things that would result in injury or death from firearms is something I’m good at determining, but like I said unless found in the same location of a known hospital, or found along with a bone saw, and other bullets it would be easier. Sadly harder mud, and dirt can cause the same mushroom effect, and make it hard to tell what it hit.

My thoughts exactly, just not put in that way, lol! It's been a mystery for a while now, and I guess sometimes we'll never know. I'll have to find the bullet my dad found in the Chancellorsville trench. That didn't hit any dirt, and would have been left looking that smooth.

 

[Davers]

Yes I still have every one of them. They are in a group all by themselves in my display case. Another place that had a odd encounter I think I wrote in the paranormal section was a day I was digging in some trenches from the civil war. That day is one I’ll always remember. I believed in the paranormal already from living at that farm, little history of trenches if anyone finds bullets fired on the inside of a dug in trench more than likely that biller had passed through someone. On more then one occasion while detecting those trenches I’ve found mushroomed bullets on the inside of them, and they couldn’t have been shot through because the trenches are on a mountainside, so anyone shooting up at them would just shoot the dirt, and rock removed that they place in front of the trench for cover.

I have never got to hunt a 'Virgin' trench but have dug a few around trenches & a hand-full of fired minne's in different trench areas .

It would be cool to get to hunt an untouched trench or part of one & try to figure out just how the bullets , relics tell the story of what went down in battle.

 

[Davers]

Could mushroomed bullets be the key to seeing if they have hit people?

View attachment 1783236

This bullet hit dirt, it was found on Culps hill, Gettysburg. Note how it is not a perfect mushroom, but rather a sloppy one.


View attachment 1783237

This bullet was found west of Reynolds Woods, Gettysburg. It is a perfect mushroom, pretty smooth on the other side. My dad found one at Chancellorsville, it was a 100 percent smooth, mushroom. I'd like to see a good pile of bullets 100% known to have hit people, because right now, it seems that perfectly mushroomed bullets seem to be the norm. There has to be exceptions of course.

As you know a-lot of these bullets Tumbled when shot or were deflected by tree limbs or leaves ? I have many that show a backward bullet strike.

Ill bet there is a way to find out what they hit ( to a certain percent ).

 

[Davers]

The one key thing a bullet causes is not just a hole, but a shockwave. A knife, arrow, or any pointy object can cause a hole, but a bullet will cause massive internal pressure gains once it enters the body by reaching mere shockwave alone. The shockwave alone in a bullet has been known to fracture bones in some patients without actually physically touching the bone. The term “permanent cavity” is the area where the shockwave expands upon entering the body, obliterating the organs, tissue, and thin blood vessels, and arteries within the human body. Take a .380 hollow point for example. Doesn’t seem like a large round at all by terms of what size bullets used in the Civil War, but the .380 hollow points cause more damage now than they would have back then, because of the changes in powder, charge, and the hollow point design. A soldier would have been lucky to have a through, and through wound considering they’d have to first fish the bullet out of their body. Take into consideration that the bullet is traveling at upwards of 1200fps in a musket alone, and the sheer speed, and impact on the human skin alone causes the outer tissue to ripple from the shock wave, and as the bullet enters it only gets bigger. I worked less enforcement long enough to see the ugly side of gunshot victims, and the shear magnitude a modern handgun bullet would do to someone’s body, and have seen the effects of hunting rifles as well. The main causes of death in patients who suffer gunshot wounds is hemorrhaging, blood loss due to severed artery, shock to vital organs from the production of the shockwave, embolism, or even asphyxiation due to blood entering the lungs.

I know the answer you want is: are all mushroomed bullets ones fired into someone’s body?
The answer is more harder to answer when dealing with bullets that are 150+ years ago due to the fact that we’ll just never know unless you find some supporting evidence, ie: found next to many other ones along with pieces of surgical equipment. With the advent of modern science finding which bullets entered the body of a modern gun, which gun fired it, and who it belongs to is a lot simpler now due to the fact that modern firearms have rifling grooves that cause small striations in the bullets. After 5-6 shots a microscopic amount of the rifling is changed due to the pressure of the bullet, exploding gases, and the bullet itself twisting its way down the barrel.

I was a Crime Scene Analyst, under the main Major Crimes unit, and Homicide Unit, worked under the Chief Crime Scene Analyst, and Luminol, hydrogen peroxide, and sodium hydroxide was used on crime scenes we worked, I was no chemist, but bullets nowadays that are shot in to someone show signs of it via blood staining, tissue, and other bodily fluids. Now if a bullet from 150+ years ago could be found in an area of where there wasn’t the possibility of moisture, and other contaminants Luminol would be a possible way to determine if it hit a human body, but it’s still not definitive. Sorry for the long post, but the forensic science behind bullet wounds, trace evidence, and other things that would result in injury or death from firearms is something I’m good at determining, but like I said unless found in the same location of a known hospital, or found along with a bone saw, and other bullets it would be easier. Sadly harder mud, and dirt can cause the same mushroom effect, and make it hard to tell what it hit.

I have to say that , 1200 fps of est, 500 gr Cone Ball , just sounds Painful . I'm thinking 'Desert Eagle' in 50 A E. but I'm pretty sure Muzzle Velocity is higher than 1200 fps ? also depends on the powder load ?
Sorry Got off track.
Davers

Having now read the rest of yr post imo you are right on , I do wonder if Luminol would show up after 100-155 years in the elements .

I find your past work interesting , My favorite TV show for almost 10 years was 'The First 48 ' I still like if Esp the local ( Atlanta ) episodes .
Thanks for the info.
GD

 

[civil_war22]

I have to say that , 1200 fps of est, 500 gr Cone Ball , just sounds Painful . I'm thinking 'Desert Eagle' in 50 A E. but I'm pretty sure Muzzle Velocity is higher than 1200 fps ? also depends on the powder load ?
Sorry Got off track.
Davers

Having now read the rest of yr post imo you are right on , I do wonder if Luminol would show up after 100-155 years in the elements .

I find your past work interesting , My favorite TV show for almost 10 years was 'The First 48 ' I still like if Esp the local ( Atlanta ) episodes .
Thanks for the info.
GD

1200 FPS was a low baseline for some of the old muzzleloading rifles of the past, depends on size, and powder charge.
Luminol would only work if it was somewhat ideal situations. There’s a number of things Luminol will shine bright on, like bleach, blood in urine, and even horseradish of all things.
The Atlanta series of The First 48 was by far the worst. Seems like they were the most popular of the cities due to the amount of deaths involved. If Luminol would work on a bullet I would have tried it by now.

 

[civil_war22]

As you know a-lot of these bullets Tumbled when shot or were deflected by tree limbs or leaves ? I have many that show a backward bullet strike.

Ill bet there is a way to find out what they hit ( to a certain percent ).

Backwards, or tumbling could be caused by any manner of different things, from hitting limbs to shooting it so far that it loses its velocity. I’ve set up a high speed camera to watch a bullet go through ballistic gel, and see the effects of what the bullet does after it travels into it, and out. I would say 8/10 tries I made they all entered straight, and then went whatever direction the cavity it made, as the bullet made the shockwave inside the gel. The 2 times the bullets came out of the gel they were tumbling, due to it losing its forward inertia. I’ve got one I found just the other day that’s a .69 Minie that’s been hit from the backside. Also was looking through my bullet book the other day, and saw one I would love to find it was a Minie ball that was struck by case shot in mid air that sandwiched the two together.

 

[releventchair]

A "crack" /breaking sound barrier is around 1080 F.P.S..
There is certainly more science to blackpowder loads , but that 'Crack" can be near enough max charge to call it good. As long as groups are still reasonable .
With patched rounds ,a patch can suffer before then , affecting accuracy.
Squib loads /near half a max. charge can work for shorter range plinking,or conservation of powder.
The minie ball though depended on pressure to expand it's skirt....Knowing where that pressure was represented in sealing the bore would be a good minimum to start.

I see a reference to C.W. Springfields launching .58's at 950 F.P.S.. (Below that "crack").
And from the same article..
[The deadly effectiveness of the rifle-musket loaded with a minié bullet was largely to blame for the Civil War’s appalling casualty rates. During the nearly 10,500 skirmishes and battles of the war, more than 110,000 Union soldiers and 94,000 Confederates were killed, and an additional 275,000 and 194,000, respectively, were wounded. Rifle bullets, primarily the minié bullet, caused 90 percent of all these casualties. Artillery projectiles accounted for less than 9 percent, and swords and bayonets, less than 1 percent. Considering all this evidence, it is no exaggeration to conclude that the rifle-musket and minié bullet greatly affected the overall course of the Civil War and foreshadowed 20th-century warfare.]https://www.historynet.com/minie-ball

 

[civil_war22]

The Springfield model 1861’s muzzle velocity was 950 FPS, and the Sharps Carbine had a muzzle velocity of 1,200 FPS with an effective range of 500 yards, maximum of 1,000 yards. Course that’s with a .52 cal 475-grain projectile with 50 grain cartridge. I’d have to say I would have preferred a Sharps over the Springfield simply for the range, and the fact some few Sharps had a built in grinder in the stock, for grinding corn or wheat.

 

[releventchair]

https://www.guns.com/news/2016/02/0...bine-with-a-mill-right-in-the-stock-10-photos

 

[civil_war22]

https://www.guns.com/news/2016/02/0...bine-with-a-mill-right-in-the-stock-10-photos

That’s the one. I’ve see. Them in person at gun shows, but they were always WAY out of my price range.

 

[Davers]

1200 FPS was a low baseline for some of the old muzzleloading rifles of the past, depends on size, and powder charge.
Luminol would only work if it was somewhat ideal situations. There’s a number of things Luminol will shine bright on, like bleach, blood in urine, and even horseradish of all things.
The Atlanta series of The First 48 was by far the worst. Seems like they were the most popular of the cities due to the amount of deaths involved. If Luminol would work on a bullet I would have tried it by now.

Thanks for the info , I do love to learn.

As for the 'first 48 ' As I stated I enjoy the Atlanta Episodes cause I recognize certain areas , been to certain places over the years + in lived in the City limits until 13 Y/o 'While the Atlanta child murders were going on ' .

Thinking back imo the best episodes were the Miami Teams esp , Joe Shalacey , the Memphis Teams were cool & Dallas was nice , loved the episode when a Man is killed with an AK ( leg shot I think ) FWIW & there were 2 large safes full of cash. The cartel got that Mans killer off the streets for sure as they did not have enough evidence to have a strong case against the killer.

Now the series that was dedicated to Atlanta was OK , There seems to be some Big Heads in APDHO, that Summer Lady Detective is cool with her red hair & her 'Mean Mug'.
FWIW.

Davers

 

[Davers]

Backwards, or tumbling could be caused by any manner of different things, from hitting limbs to shooting it so far that it loses its velocity. I’ve set up a high speed camera to watch a bullet go through ballistic gel, and see the effects of what the bullet does after it travels into it, and out. I would say 8/10 tries I made they all entered straight, and then went whatever direction the cavity it made, as the bullet made the shockwave inside the gel. The 2 times the bullets came out of the gel they were tumbling, due to it losing its forward inertia. I’ve got one I found just the other day that’s a .69 Minie that’s been hit from the backside. Also was looking through my bullet book the other day, and saw one I would love to find it was a Minie ball that was struck by case shot in mid air that sandwiched the two together.

Yea 2 air fused Minnie's or fused Minnie w/case shot would be a heck of a find.
Congratz on the .69 , I've only dug a handful here 2-4 in the metro & bout 4 fired from the Chickamauga area.

 

[A2coins]

That's kinda creepy