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  1. #16
    us
    Apr 2009
    Central Florida mountains
    179
    1 times

    Re: would you send this to be graded?

    Diver Dan, You are indeed correct in everything you have stated.

  2. #17
    us
    Tuberale

    May 2010
    Portland, Oregon
    White's Coinmaster Pro
    2,985
    20 times

    Re: would you send this to be graded?

    Quote Originally Posted by l.cutler
    The more I look at it I think there are bigger problems with this coin. It doesn't look right.
    I believe so too, but can verbalize that problem. Might make the coin more valuable even.

    Coin appears to be struck off-center. Also appears to have partial doubling in the rim (upper right obverse).

    Don't know whether that would make this particular coin more valuable, though. Many US coins struck before 1850 have similar issues.

  3. #18
    us
    Jan 2008
    Black Hills of South Dakota
    Tesoro Lobo & Garrett Stinger
    4,167
    67 times
    All Types Of Treasure Hunting

    Re: would you send this to be graded?

    Rooter,

    Are you suggesting that ANACS is participating in false advertising? Or that they don't know what they do?

    Beth



    ANACS website FAQ:

    Does ANACS certify “problem coins”?
    Yes. ANACS is the first major grading service to grade cleaned, corroded, damaged, repaired, and other "problem coins". Label's display a coin’s "detail grade" and the coin’s corresponding problem(s). “Details” Graded coins are not eligible for the ANACS Guarantee.
    "Irony is the rule"

  4. #19
    Charter Member
    us
    Dec 2008
    St. Augustine, FL
    3,298
    737 times

    Re: would you send this to be graded?

    Quote Originally Posted by mrs.oroblanco
    Rooter,

    Are you suggesting that ANACS is participating in false advertising? Or that they don't know what they do?

    Beth



    ANACS website FAQ:

    Does ANACS certify “problem coins”?
    Yes. ANACS is the first major grading service to grade cleaned, corroded, damaged, repaired, and other "problem coins". Label's display a coin’s "detail grade" and the coin’s corresponding problem(s). “Details” Graded coins are not eligible for the ANACS Guarantee.
    Geez, Beth. You seem to be the one taking this personal. Rooter chimed in stating that everything I said is correct. In fact, if you re-read the thread, you will note that in the 12th post that I mentioned that ANACS is the only one of the big 3 to "grade" a coin. In post 13, you highlight (in blue) the same fact. Now, in your final post, you are insinuating that Rooter by agreeing with my statements that it somehow made your statements incorrect. My only disagreement with you is the premise that "Uncirculated" is a grade. No such grade when it comes to numismatics.

  5. #20
    us
    Apr 2009
    Central Florida mountains
    179
    1 times

    Re: would you send this to be graded?

    Diver Dan is again correct is what he has stated. Basically the only TPG's that carry any weight are NGC and PCGS. ANACS saw an excellent business opportunity in grading coins that would otherwise be bodybaged. Why would you want a coin slabbed as damaged, cleaned, or corroded with XX details? (unless it's very rare and you need proof that it is "genuine")

  6. #21
    us
    Jan 2008
    Black Hills of South Dakota
    Tesoro Lobo & Garrett Stinger
    4,167
    67 times
    All Types Of Treasure Hunting

    Re: would you send this to be graded?

    Well, again - I will repeat that, personally - I probably would not grade this coin - which was MY FIRST POST.

    Second - there IS that exact thing of why someone would want to grade something - to see if it is genuine - or rare or whatever. Just because you, and I, for that matter, might not think something is worth it - I have found a few thing here and there over my 60+ years that were a whole lot more valuable than I thought. (an article of metal that was pronounced by those here as a cow tag, was, in fact, a 96th regiment of foot buckle, now certified by the British War Museum), and a non-magnetic meteorite as a hunk of slag, even by an "expert" turned out to be a very, very rare meteorite.

    So, do I take "facts" personal - you bet I do. Especially when they are ignored.

    As far as you saying that UNC is not a grade - it is not a numerical grade - however, NCG uses that as part of its grading system. I know actual facts from their website doesn't affect your "opinion", but, here it is anyway.

    NGC Details Grading Glossary
    Grading terminology:
    UNC DETAILS (Uncirculated) — A coin that shows no wear or evidence of circulation.

    AU DETAILS (About Uncirculated) — Traces of light wear are evident on the high points of the coin's design.

    XF DETAILS (Extremely Fine) — Design features are well defined, although light wear is evident throughout.

    VF DETAILS (Very Fine) — Major details of the coin are clear although light wear is evident; the high points show moderate wear.

    F DETAILS (Fine) — Moderate wear or many elements with heavy wear on high points. The major design elements remain visible.

    VG DETAILS (Very Good) — Heavy wear flattens design elements, although major features are clearly outlined.

    G DETAILS (Good) — Design details are flat and visible in outline. Some portions of the design may be faint.

    AG DETAILS (About Good) — Design details are flat and appear in outline. Portions of the rim are lost to wear.

    FA DETAILS (Fair) — Coin is identifiable, design is flat and visible in outline, and rim is essentially indistinguishable from coin fields.

    PR DETAILS (Poor) — Heavily worn; only basal detail remains.



    Here is their website:

    http://www.ngccoin.com/details/glossary.aspx


    Beth
    "Irony is the rule"

  7. #22
    us
    Apr 2009
    Central Florida mountains
    179
    1 times

    Re: would you send this to be graded?

    OK Beth, Lets get the fact straight. The above represents the Adjectival grading system which hasn't been used for 20 years. The Sheldon scale is now and has been the de facto standard for grading US coins and is used by all TPG.

  8. #23
    Charter Member
    us
    Dec 2008
    St. Augustine, FL
    3,298
    737 times

    Re: would you send this to be graded?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rooter
    OK Beth, Lets get the fact straight. The above represents the Adjectival grading system which hasn't been used for 20 years. The Sheldon scale is now and has been the de facto standard for grading US coins and is used by all TPG.
    Rooter, it is no use. Beth is right or she'll at least tell you so.

  9. #24

    Feb 2008
    Houston Texas
    136

    Re: would you send this to be graded?

    All of the arguments regarding the use of the Sheldon scale are pretty much absurd when you consider that there is no quantitative analysis performed on the coin to determine a number. I have many dealer friends and belong to two coin clubs in one of the largest cities in the US who agree with me on this. Many times you will get back a coin that does not reflect the numeric grade assigned by the slab.

    The points made regarding using adjectival grades instead of numeric grades are also valid when the surface of the coin has been altered (either naturally through ground action or by artificial means).

    Alan Morgan

  10. #25
    us
    Apr 2009
    Central Florida mountains
    179
    1 times

    Re: would you send this to be graded?

    Alan, I completely agree the process is subjective but, it's all there is (but that's not really the point). If you want a coin graded by the big two TPG you will have to defer to their expert opinion. I also respectfully disagree with you in regards to a details coin being graded using the adjectival system. Firstly it is only used on damaged coins. A slab stating that a coin is damaged with XX details means nothing to me personally and is not really graded IMO. I would rather just see it labeled as damaged and genuine. To help eliminate the very thing your are speaking about wouldn't you agree it makes more sense to adhere to one standard?

  11. #26

    Feb 2008
    Houston Texas
    136

    Re: would you send this to be graded?

    The details grade refers to the old system in which the remaining detail as defined by wear applies to the grade put on the slab. Corrosion acts differently than wear and therefore you can have details that belong to an EF coin but a numeric grade based upon wear cannot be applied. This is the flaw of the numeric grading system. The adjectival system still describes how much wear was subjected to the coin before it became corroded or altered.

    Alan

  12. #27
    us
    Jan 2008
    Black Hills of South Dakota
    Tesoro Lobo & Garrett Stinger
    4,167
    67 times
    All Types Of Treasure Hunting

    Re: would you send this to be graded?

    The Sheldon Scale from the PCGS website:


    The Importance of Coin Grading
    As coin collecting gained momentum during the early 1900s, the condition of a coin, along with its rarity, essentially determined its value as is the case today. And over the years, coin grading evolved to a system of finer and finer grade distinctions. The problem was the often subjective assignment of "grades" by different coin dealers.


    When the rare coin market was limited to a small number of numismatists trading with each other, three broad definitions were enough to determine grade: "Good" – a coin with most of the detail intact; "Fine" – a coin with clear detail and some luster on its surfaces; and "Uncirculated" – a coin which had never been in general circulation and therefore retained its Mint State condition.

    As the market grew, collectors realized that some "fine" coins were finer than others. Even some uncirculated coins rose above the rest in detail, luster, and general appearance. Soon terms such as "Very Fine" and "Extra Fine" began to emerge, as collectors sought to further define the condition of their coins and increase their value. In 1948, Dr. William Sheldon, a renowned numismatist, developed the Sheldon Scale, assigning grades from "1" through "70" to coins on the theory that a "70" would be worth 70 times as much as a "1."
    Although coin collectors agreed on the scale, they could not agree on the standard, and assigning a Sheldon Scale grade to any given coin was still a matter of subjective opinion


    Note: While the Sheldon Scale is universally acknowledged, coin experts in Europe and elsewhere often shun the numerical system, preferring to rate specimens on a purely descriptive, or adjectival, scale.

    "Irony is the rule"

  13. #28

    Feb 2008
    Houston Texas
    136

    Re: would you send this to be graded?

    Spot on oroblanco. The numeric system is best used on late 19th and 20th century coins where the coins were struck on machine presses. Consider the coins of Europe where this only applies to coins produced within the last 150 years of a rich 2000 plus history of coin production and you are left scratching your head when you get a slabbed hammered coin that is clearly uncirculated but gets an AU number because the grader cant recognize the difference between a weakly struck specimen and a slightly worn one because of the lack of a large quantity of comparable examples. One of my friends has a Ferd VII reale that is numerically graded 62 and in theory should be a 64 or 65. The only imperfections I can find on the coin are due to poor quality planchets being used...

    Alan

  14. #29
    us
    Apr 2009
    Central Florida mountains
    179
    1 times

    Re: would you send this to be graded?

    Ahem Alan, we are not speaking of ancients. The discussion and facts were relevant to the specimen offered at the top of the post. And yes Blah, Blah, Blah we all realize that grading is subjective but that's not the point at all. Like it or not the Sheldon scale is what is most widely used in the context of this topic and value determined by the numeric grading of a MS coin can vary by thousands of dollars for 1 point.

    "As the market grew, collectors realized that some "fine" coins were finer than others. Even some uncirculated coins rose above the rest in detail, luster, and general appearance. Soon terms such as "Very Fine" and "Extra Fine" began to emerge, as collectors sought to further define the condition of their coins and increase their value. In 1948, Dr. William Sheldon, a renowned numismatist, developed the Sheldon Scale, assigning grades from "1" through "70" to coins on the theory that a "70" would be worth 70 times as much as a "1."

    You skipped over this entire part of the paragraph. I don't know why but you really seem to be grasping at straws to prove you're right for some reason even if it means diluting the original point of the post. This has been discussed ad nauseam so as it is evident that you are unable to concede the point so I will consider the topic exhausted.

  15. #30

    Feb 2008
    Houston Texas
    136

    Re: would you send this to be graded?

    You yourself admit that grading is subjective... why put quantitative numbers if they cant be backed up by quantitative analysis? I guess you are one of those full-contact competitive collectors that tries to collect registry sets....

 

 
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