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  1. #21
    us
    Jan 2008
    Black Hills of South Dakota
    Tesoro Lobo & Garrett Stinger
    4,159
    56 times
    All Types Of Treasure Hunting

    Re: would you send this to be graded?

    Well, again - I will repeat that, personally - I probably would not grade this coin - which was MY FIRST POST.

    Second - there IS that exact thing of why someone would want to grade something - to see if it is genuine - or rare or whatever. Just because you, and I, for that matter, might not think something is worth it - I have found a few thing here and there over my 60+ years that were a whole lot more valuable than I thought. (an article of metal that was pronounced by those here as a cow tag, was, in fact, a 96th regiment of foot buckle, now certified by the British War Museum), and a non-magnetic meteorite as a hunk of slag, even by an "expert" turned out to be a very, very rare meteorite.

    So, do I take "facts" personal - you bet I do. Especially when they are ignored.

    As far as you saying that UNC is not a grade - it is not a numerical grade - however, NCG uses that as part of its grading system. I know actual facts from their website doesn't affect your "opinion", but, here it is anyway.

    NGC Details Grading Glossary
    Grading terminology:
    UNC DETAILS (Uncirculated) A coin that shows no wear or evidence of circulation.

    AU DETAILS (About Uncirculated) Traces of light wear are evident on the high points of the coin's design.

    XF DETAILS (Extremely Fine) Design features are well defined, although light wear is evident throughout.

    VF DETAILS (Very Fine) Major details of the coin are clear although light wear is evident; the high points show moderate wear.

    F DETAILS (Fine) Moderate wear or many elements with heavy wear on high points. The major design elements remain visible.

    VG DETAILS (Very Good) Heavy wear flattens design elements, although major features are clearly outlined.

    G DETAILS (Good) Design details are flat and visible in outline. Some portions of the design may be faint.

    AG DETAILS (About Good) Design details are flat and appear in outline. Portions of the rim are lost to wear.

    FA DETAILS (Fair) Coin is identifiable, design is flat and visible in outline, and rim is essentially indistinguishable from coin fields.

    PR DETAILS (Poor) Heavily worn; only basal detail remains.



    Here is their website:

    http://www.ngccoin.com/details/glossary.aspx


    Beth
    "Irony is the rule"

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  3. #22
    us
    Apr 2009
    Central Florida mountains
    179
    1 times

    Re: would you send this to be graded?

    OK Beth, Lets get the fact straight. The above represents the Adjectival grading system which hasn't been used for 20 years. The Sheldon scale is now and has been the de facto standard for grading US coins and is used by all TPG.

  4. #23
    Charter Member
    us
    Dec 2008
    St. Augustine, FL
    3,246
    715 times

    Re: would you send this to be graded?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rooter
    OK Beth, Lets get the fact straight. The above represents the Adjectival grading system which hasn't been used for 20 years. The Sheldon scale is now and has been the de facto standard for grading US coins and is used by all TPG.
    Rooter, it is no use. Beth is right or she'll at least tell you so.

  5. #24

    Feb 2008
    Houston Texas
    136

    Re: would you send this to be graded?

    All of the arguments regarding the use of the Sheldon scale are pretty much absurd when you consider that there is no quantitative analysis performed on the coin to determine a number. I have many dealer friends and belong to two coin clubs in one of the largest cities in the US who agree with me on this. Many times you will get back a coin that does not reflect the numeric grade assigned by the slab.

    The points made regarding using adjectival grades instead of numeric grades are also valid when the surface of the coin has been altered (either naturally through ground action or by artificial means).

    Alan Morgan

  6. #25
    us
    Apr 2009
    Central Florida mountains
    179
    1 times

    Re: would you send this to be graded?

    Alan, I completely agree the process is subjective but, it's all there is (but that's not really the point). If you want a coin graded by the big two TPG you will have to defer to their expert opinion. I also respectfully disagree with you in regards to a details coin being graded using the adjectival system. Firstly it is only used on damaged coins. A slab stating that a coin is damaged with XX details means nothing to me personally and is not really graded IMO. I would rather just see it labeled as damaged and genuine. To help eliminate the very thing your are speaking about wouldn't you agree it makes more sense to adhere to one standard?

  7. #26

    Feb 2008
    Houston Texas
    136

    Re: would you send this to be graded?

    The details grade refers to the old system in which the remaining detail as defined by wear applies to the grade put on the slab. Corrosion acts differently than wear and therefore you can have details that belong to an EF coin but a numeric grade based upon wear cannot be applied. This is the flaw of the numeric grading system. The adjectival system still describes how much wear was subjected to the coin before it became corroded or altered.

    Alan

  8. #27
    us
    Jan 2008
    Black Hills of South Dakota
    Tesoro Lobo & Garrett Stinger
    4,159
    56 times
    All Types Of Treasure Hunting

    Re: would you send this to be graded?

    The Sheldon Scale from the PCGS website:


    The Importance of Coin Grading
    As coin collecting gained momentum during the early 1900s, the condition of a coin, along with its rarity, essentially determined its value as is the case today. And over the years, coin grading evolved to a system of finer and finer grade distinctions. The problem was the often subjective assignment of "grades" by different coin dealers.


    When the rare coin market was limited to a small number of numismatists trading with each other, three broad definitions were enough to determine grade: "Good" a coin with most of the detail intact; "Fine" a coin with clear detail and some luster on its surfaces; and "Uncirculated" a coin which had never been in general circulation and therefore retained its Mint State condition.

    As the market grew, collectors realized that some "fine" coins were finer than others. Even some uncirculated coins rose above the rest in detail, luster, and general appearance. Soon terms such as "Very Fine" and "Extra Fine" began to emerge, as collectors sought to further define the condition of their coins and increase their value. In 1948, Dr. William Sheldon, a renowned numismatist, developed the Sheldon Scale, assigning grades from "1" through "70" to coins on the theory that a "70" would be worth 70 times as much as a "1."
    Although coin collectors agreed on the scale, they could not agree on the standard, and assigning a Sheldon Scale grade to any given coin was still a matter of subjective opinion


    Note: While the Sheldon Scale is universally acknowledged, coin experts in Europe and elsewhere often shun the numerical system, preferring to rate specimens on a purely descriptive, or adjectival, scale.

    "Irony is the rule"

  9. #28

    Feb 2008
    Houston Texas
    136

    Re: would you send this to be graded?

    Spot on oroblanco. The numeric system is best used on late 19th and 20th century coins where the coins were struck on machine presses. Consider the coins of Europe where this only applies to coins produced within the last 150 years of a rich 2000 plus history of coin production and you are left scratching your head when you get a slabbed hammered coin that is clearly uncirculated but gets an AU number because the grader cant recognize the difference between a weakly struck specimen and a slightly worn one because of the lack of a large quantity of comparable examples. One of my friends has a Ferd VII reale that is numerically graded 62 and in theory should be a 64 or 65. The only imperfections I can find on the coin are due to poor quality planchets being used...

    Alan

  10. #29
    us
    Apr 2009
    Central Florida mountains
    179
    1 times

    Re: would you send this to be graded?

    Ahem Alan, we are not speaking of ancients. The discussion and facts were relevant to the specimen offered at the top of the post. And yes Blah, Blah, Blah we all realize that grading is subjective but that's not the point at all. Like it or not the Sheldon scale is what is most widely used in the context of this topic and value determined by the numeric grading of a MS coin can vary by thousands of dollars for 1 point.

    "As the market grew, collectors realized that some "fine" coins were finer than others. Even some uncirculated coins rose above the rest in detail, luster, and general appearance. Soon terms such as "Very Fine" and "Extra Fine" began to emerge, as collectors sought to further define the condition of their coins and increase their value. In 1948, Dr. William Sheldon, a renowned numismatist, developed the Sheldon Scale, assigning grades from "1" through "70" to coins on the theory that a "70" would be worth 70 times as much as a "1."

    You skipped over this entire part of the paragraph. I don't know why but you really seem to be grasping at straws to prove you're right for some reason even if it means diluting the original point of the post. This has been discussed ad nauseam so as it is evident that you are unable to concede the point so I will consider the topic exhausted.

  11. #30

    Feb 2008
    Houston Texas
    136

    Re: would you send this to be graded?

    You yourself admit that grading is subjective... why put quantitative numbers if they cant be backed up by quantitative analysis? I guess you are one of those full-contact competitive collectors that tries to collect registry sets....

  12. #31
    us
    Jan 2008
    Black Hills of South Dakota
    Tesoro Lobo & Garrett Stinger
    4,159
    56 times
    All Types Of Treasure Hunting

    Re: would you send this to be graded?

    Amorgan,

    That was what I was trying to get across -


    And, I thought that the original question of this post:


    Also what does having a coin graded involve? would it make the coin more valuable?


    deserved a complete answer.



    Beth
    "Irony is the rule"

  13. #32
    us
    Jul 2006
    All over Texas
    Team Tesoro
    4,266
    583 times
    All Types Of Treasure Hunting

    Re: would you send this to be graded?

    Grading is subjective AND unpredictable by any of the major grading services. As a former dealer I have seen unbelievable discrepencies in slabbed coins, not only in wrong grades being assigned to coins but even wrong dates and even the wrong type printed on labels of slabbed coins.

    I personally have bought many slabbed coins that were labelled "cleaned" or "enviromental damage", broke them out of the slab and re-sold them at a tidy profit.

    So, to answer the original question.... I would not submit this particular coin for grading. It is worth more as it is.


    The stuff that dreams are made of.

  14. #33
    us
    Apr 2009
    Central Florida mountains
    179
    1 times

    Re: would you send this to be graded?

    I really wanted to stop beating this dead horse but...Alan, Until you come up with you own full proof, quantitative analysis, coin grading system it's what we're stuck with. The majority of collectors take these grades seriously and pay the price that the grade dictates. Ever seen a redbook? And.. Alan you couldn't have made a more inaccurate assumption about me. I purchase and sell almost entirely raw coins. My question for Thrilla is, did you make the buyer aware that the coin was previously slabbed/graded damaged or cleaned? If you didn't (and it sounds like you didn't) then shame on you and I'm glad your a former dealer. Yes, if he sells the coin raw the buyer may be so enamored by the XF details that they may overlook the porosity and damage to the coins surface. If graded it's there on the slab for everyone to see. Yes, the answer is that the value of this coin does not warrant the price of grading but that was answered 10 posts ago.

  15. #34
    us
    Jul 2006
    All over Texas
    Team Tesoro
    4,266
    583 times
    All Types Of Treasure Hunting

    Re: would you send this to be graded?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rooter
    I really wanted to stop beating this dead horse but...Alan, Until you come up with you own full proof, quantitative analysis, coin grading system it's what we're stuck with. The majority of collectors take these grades seriously and pay the price that the grade dictates. Ever seen a redbook? And.. Alan you couldn't have made a more inaccurate assumption about me. I purchase and sell almost entirely raw coins. My question for Thrilla is, did you make the buyer aware that the coin was previously slabbed/graded damaged or cleaned? If you didn't (and it sounds like you didn't) then shame on you and I'm glad your a former dealer. Yes, if he sells the coin raw the buyer may be so enamored by the XF details that they may overlook the porosity and damage to the coins surface. If graded it's there on the slab for everyone to see. Yes, the answer is that the value of this coin does not warrant the price of grading but that was answered 10 posts ago.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rooter
    I really wanted to stop beating They saw exactly what they were buying. this dead horse but...Alan, Until you come up with you own full proof, quantitative analysis, coin grading system it's what we're stuck with. The majority of collectors take these grades seriously and pay the price that the grade dictates. Ever seen a redbook? And.. Alan you couldn't have made a more inaccurate assumption about me. I purchase and sell almost entirely raw coins. My question for Thrilla is, did you make the buyer aware that the coin was previously slabbed/graded damaged or cleaned? If you didn't (and it sounds like you didn't) then shame on you and I'm glad your a former dealer. Yes, if he sells the coin raw the buyer may be so enamored by the XF details that they may overlook the porosity and damage to the coins surface. If graded it's there on the slab for everyone to see. Yes, the answer is that the value of this coin does not warrant the price of grading but that was answered 10 posts ago.
    Mr. Roto ....Every single coin I ever sold was in plain view for any purchaser to see, even pick up and examine with a loop if desired! MY POINT WAS having anything marked on a holder (especially in RED)that denotes negativity in any way is a turn off to the buyer, thus a lower price!


    The stuff that dreams are made of.

  16. #35
    us
    Apr 2009
    Central Florida mountains
    179
    1 times

    Re: would you send this to be graded?

    Ahhh... So you admit that you with held the info from the buyer. What was the name of your business "Caveat Emptor Coin Shop"? Wow! What a credit you are/were to the coin collecting community. Good riddance! Shame, Shame, Shame on you !!!! Ha!

  17. #36
    us
    wolf pack!!!

    Sep 2006
    Texas
    Minlabe SE, ace 250, fisher 1280x
    4,554
    31 times
    Banner Finds (2)
    Honorable Mentions (1)

    Re: would you send this to be graded?

    give it a break rooter,as a buyer I purchase what I like and want. this coin for example, would make a fine piece in any collection and would be VERY RARE in better condition,, as the link I posted stated.. The experts here confirmed its condition as possibly cleaned and ungradable. I see no Harm in selling something "as is" as long as the buyer can examine it.Thats not misrepresenting it. .
    Thanks to everyone here for pointing out it doesn't warrant sending in.
    Leave no stone unturned.

  18. #37

    Feb 2008
    Houston Texas
    136

    Re: would you send this to be graded?

    I agree Texan, Despite the minor porosity, I would be proud of finding and owning it.

    Alan

  19. #38
    us
    Apr 2009
    Central Florida mountains
    179
    1 times

    Re: would you send this to be graded?

    Give what a break? Geez! Why are you upset with me? You asked the question. I never insulted your coin or you. Selling a coin raw "as is" is one thing. Breaking a coin out of a "damaged" graded slab and selling it with out revealing that fact is another matter. Especially when done by a dealer who many would like to think maintain a higher standard in their business practices. It's a fine coin and I never intended to demean it in any way.

  20. #39
    us
    Mar 2009
    140
    31 times

    Re: would you send this to be graded?

    I have never gone wrong with my "Coolness" grading system:

    Uncool - I think its a coin, or maybe it was at one time.

    Cool - Look! A dead president!

    Very Cool - Eagles and Arrows!

    So Cool - "CC", baby.

    Way Too Cool - Bare Boobs!

    Totally Cool - Look! A hat on a stick!

    Blown Away (highest grade) - Yikes! Treasury's at my door!

  21. #40
    us
    Tuberale

    May 2010
    Portland, Oregon
    White's Coinmaster Pro
    2,982
    20 times

    Re: would you send this to be graded?

    Yep. Gotta consider your options with those hundred 1933 $20 Gaudens.

    Getting back on topic, there is nothing that says this coin was purchased. Would I have it slabbed/graded? Nope. Not cost effective with the condition. But just my opinion, and I am NOT a professional coin grader. (Like there was ever any question of that.)

 

 
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