Identifying Low Grade 09-S VDBs

[Zavenoa]

I've searched everywhere on the internet and I can't find any definitive solution to identifying 09-S vs 09-S VDBs in low grades. By low grades, I mean you can barely even tell it's an 09-S, like it would be an AG1 if a 3rd party grading service would even grade it. I'm contemplating just submitting them for grading, but I'd rather be able to narrow down my results a little bit before submitting them. All 4 of these show the signs of the VDB in various states, but I'm not sure how the 09-S was minted when they removed the VDB. Meaning, do regular 09-S pennies still show a hint of the VDB? If so, that may be all I'm seeing, now more pronounced (on some) due to heavy wear.

I'm tossing the pictures on here, the left picture of each has an 09-S VDB from PCGS website overlapped 25%, but it's not perfect because some of the coins are slightly rotated. It just serves as a marker to show where it should be.

*Update: Possibly a VDB:


*Update: Possibly a VDB:


*Update: Not a VDB:


Really, it just depends on the minting process. If there was any hint of VDB still on the regular 09-S pennies then these are probably not VDBs. The Ns in UNITED seem to be right on some of them, I just don't know. I've spent far too much time looking at these things and am still not convinced.

Any suggestions on which one I should submit, or should I just send them all and see what happens?

 

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[Mackaydon]

My suggestions: Take the guesswork out and submit to PCGS.
Whether you get a PO-1, FR-2, AG-3 or G-4 grade, you'll most likely be able to recover the grading cost and make a profit upon sale.
Don.......

 

[Zavenoa]

Thanks, thats what I'll do.

 

[coinguy*matthew]

Not so fast its all in the obverse, this pic will also help determine if they are counterfeit or not. Your reverse pics do not show a vdb though IMO but i could be wrong i have been in the past good luck.

 

[Zavenoa]

I can post pics of the obverse as well, but there isn't any point. I went through them with that pic for hours as well and believe I was able to identify which number each was. That being said, it's almost impossible without high end equipment like a SEM (Scanning Electron Microscope), which I'm sure is one of the tools PCGS uses. You have to realize, these were coins I found in bags of 5k wheats I bought on feebay that have probably been picked through a dozen times (if not hundreds) and some of these even took me a while to identify that they were 09s at all.

I also did a little more research, tracking down every 09-S VDB in VF or lower condition I could find a picture of as well as every regular 09-S in the same condition, as well as a little more digging on how the V.D.B. was removed from the die in 1909 when they switched. From what I've read, and based on regular 09-S coins I looked at, it appears the mint simply removed the V.D.B. from the master Hub which is used to make the dies, rather than producing a new Hub with a B in an "inconspicuous place" and the V.D.B. removed. Reproducing a new Hub would have taken at least 14 days and at the time the supply for the penny was already falling far short of the demand.

Here is a quick shot of the reverse of a 1913, the V is still clearly visible under high magnification because the Hub used to make Master Dies was not replaced. I couldn't find when it was replaced, but the Obverse Hub was strengthened because the details were deteriorating from making Master Dies. I do not know if/when the reverse was strengthened or sharpened, but it's probably safe to assume it wasn't before Barber died in 1917 (Barber and Brenner didn't see eye to eye).



What all of this boils down to, even in AG state, if the V.D.B. isn't visible with the naked eye, it's probably a regular 09 or 09-S. I still have 2 or 3 that are questionable, and will probably submit them to PCGS for authentication because even if I could authenticate it myself, there would be no way to "prove it" if I decide to sell them. Worst case, they come back as an 09 and I lose $10-$20, but if even 1 of them come back as genuine it will far outweigh the cost for all 3.

I edited the post above as well, #1 and #2 are possibly VDBs with #2 being the most likely candidate, but the odds are still in favor of them being regular 09-S. The 3rd is definitely not a VDB. Although it's still a G or VG coin at best, the VDB should be obvious on the back, even if it's just a different toning in that area. I would say a quick way to judge it is by the rim. If the rim is clearly defined (1 & 2 do not have clearly defined rims, but 3 does) the VDB should be obvious to anyone looking at it. Where it gets more difficult is when the coin is so worn the rim is completely worn flat, like the 2nd coin. Even on the 1st coin, the rim isn't worn completely flat, so there should still be some clear sign of at least one of the letters with the naked eye.

On top of all of this, you have to think of rarity. The 09 and 09-S VDBs are far more common in Mint than almost any other grade, because of the massive amount of press and interest the coin received. Many were circulated, but were still nabbed by collectors in the teens, twenties and thirties. By the 40s these were scarce in circulation and by the 50s almost non-existant.

 

[dejapooh]

I would say that you should get them authenticated. There are more characteristics to each die set than is normally noted. If the VDB is not plainly visible, it may be identified by other die marks, crack, chips, or so on. Leave this to the professionals and go with their decision.

 

[coinguy*matthew]

What all of this boils down to, even in AG state, if the V.D.B. isn't visible with the naked eye, it's probably a regular 09 or 09-S. I still have 2 or 3 that are questionable, and will probably submit them to PCGS for authentication because even if I could authenticate it myself, there would be no way to "prove it" if I decide to sell them. Worst case, they come back as an 09 and I lose $10-$20, but if even 1 of them come back as genuine it will far outweigh the cost for all 3.

I agree i was just trying to help you narrow them down, thats all.

 

[Zavenoa]

Yea, I appreciate the feedback. I was actually able to narrow down 7 09-S to 2 that are definitely worth submitting and 1 that is questionable, which ended up saving me at least like $150 on grading. If getting them graded was only like $10 a coin I wouldn't bother wasting time trying to even narrow down results, but at $35+ per coin the costs can get steep very quickly.