Genuine British halfpennies vs Machins mills

[lisfisher]

Genuine British halfpennies vs Machin's mills

I have a whole mess of Halfpennies that I dug over the years, all 1700's. I was wondering, how can I tell the difference between a genuine British halfpenny between the Machin's mills variety??

 

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[l.cutler]

Wow that is a tough one. About the only way is to study good photos of all the Machins varieties, learn what dates to look for, the details of the bust and Britannia on the reverse, the legends. One of the old standbys was the cross on Britannias shield, on the genuine British coins the crosses on the shield were kind of outlined, doubled lines on the edges, whereas the Machins had just solid bars on the shield.

 

[Iron Patch]

Start by the dates. Anything that is not 1770-1775 and has the correct legends is either a good Brit. counterfeit, or a Machin's Mills. Also the 1775 MM only has one variety so you can rule out your 1775s fairly quick, and that is the most common date for the George III British halfpenny.

 

[lisfisher]

Some of my coppers have worn dates, so it's a little tricky with the I.D . I do have a book which is extremely extensive and detailed but it seems any given copper halfpenny in this book has nine thousand different varieties, more than enough to make my head spin. I'm wondering if the genuine British and the MM measure or weigh the same.

 

[l.cutler]

Machins mills coins are definitely lighter than their genuine British counterparts, but so were the thousands of other varieties of counterfeits. The whole purpose of counterfeiting them was to make money, this was done by using less copper than a genuine coin, the less copper used, the bigger the profit. Machins mills was only one maker of counterfeit halfpence, counterfeits were much more common than the genuine article in circulation. There were British made counterfeits as well as American made. Weight will help separate counterfeits from genuine, but not Machins from other counterfeits. Most of the guys who can look at a coin and tell if it is a Machins or not have studied the coins for years.

 

[Iron Patch]

You should post them. I'm no expert but have a very good sense of which have potential whether they are British counterfeits or Machin's Mills.

 

[Born2Late]

I agree that posting some pics would be great. I'm one of those geeks who has studied them for years and can spot them from across the room. It's confusing at first, but then you begin to see patterns and similarities. The ones currently attributed to NY mints are dated 1747, 1771, 1772, 1774-1776, 1778, 1785, 1787 and 1788. Other pieces that are thought to have a chance of being American-made (but probably not NY) are dated 1777, 1783, 1784 and 1786. The NY pieces, including those currently attributed to Machin's Mills, number 36 varieties. Any halfpenny dated 1787 or 1788 is almost certainly from NY. As someone mentioned, only one variety is dated 1775 (Vlack 4-75A). Once you learn what that obverse looks like (See the coinfacts.com site), you can easily check for two rare varieties with the same obverse, 4-71C and 4-71D. And you can eliminate the most common British counterfeits, which are dated 1775. Only two varieties are dated 1776. One (9-76B) is very rare and has Cs instead of Gs Georgivs. The other (6-76A) is fairly common. Once you learn what it looks like, you can eliminate British 1776s and you can look for 6-72A, which shares the same 6 obverse. All the 1774s share the same reverse. Likewise, the 87C reverse is used with 18-87C, 19-87C, 20-87C, 21-87C, 23-87C, VT-87C and 25-87C (only 1 known). So, learning these reverses will help. There are others, but you get the picture. Posting a few that I've mentioned.

 

[Born2Late]

Here's one more that's distinctive. It's 1-47A, the only American George II halfpenny. Compare to the regal halfpenny from about the same period (1753). Also forgot to mention that 17-87A, 17-87B and the very rare 17-87E all share the same obverse as the 17-87A above. Also, I should note that none of these were found by me. I just bought them. Would kill to find one, but I don't think they made it to where I live.

 

[Roman Hunter]

Interesting read cheers .

 

[Iron Patch]

I agree that posting some pics would be great. I'm one of those geeks who has studied them for years and can spot them from across the room. It's confusing at first, but then you begin to see patterns and similarities. The ones currently attributed to NY mints are dated 1747, 1771, 1772, 1774-1776, 1778, 1785, 1787 and 1788. Other pieces that are thought to have a chance of being American-made (but probably not NY) are dated 1777, 1783, 1784 and 1786. The NY pieces, including those currently attributed to Machin's Mills, number 36 varieties. Any halfpenny dated 1787 or 1788 is almost certainly from NY. As someone mentioned, only one variety is dated 1775 (Vlack 4-75A). Once you learn what that obverse looks like (See the coinfacts.com site), you can easily check for two rare varieties with the same obverse, 4-71C and 4-71D. And you can eliminate the most common British counterfeits, which are dated 1775. Only two varieties are dated 1776. One (9-76B) is very rare and has Cs instead of Gs Georgivs. The other (6-76A) is fairly common. Once you learn what it looks like, you can eliminate British 1776s and you can look for 6-72A, which shares the same 6 obverse. All the 1774s share the same reverse. Likewise, the 87C reverse is used with 18-87C, 19-87C, 20-87C, 21-87C, 23-87C, VT-87C and 25-87C (only 1 known). So, learning these reverses will help. There are others, but you get the picture. Posting a few that I've mentioned.

A few years back I Id'ed a dug (9-76B) for a guy who posted and had no idea. Sadly it was poor to start, and worse after he cleaned it!

I also bought a nice 3-74a off ebay for $7! Looking at your pics it looks very similar, but my sale went to a collector in PA... but these things do get around.

 

[jerseyben]

Great thread!

 

[Born2Late]

A few years back I Id'ed a dug (9-76B) for a guy who posted and had no idea. Sadly it was poor to start, and worse after he cleaned it!

I also bought a nice 3-74a off ebay for $7! Looking at your pics it looks very similar, but my sale went to a collector in PA... but these things do get around.

Congratulations on getting a 3-74A off eBay. It wasn't this one. I bought this 3-74A off an old Texas dealer in the days before eBay got big. A friend identified it as having belonged to Ted Craige, long before the recent sale of his collection. A photograph of Craige's coin had been circulating for years, but no one knew where the actual coin was. It's currently about third in the condition census. So, if you found one that looks like this for $7, you did very well. I bought a decent 7-74A for not much more than that recently. I'm always on the lookout for a 9-76B, but haven't found a nice one for less than a fortune.

 

[Iron Patch]

Congratulations on getting a 3-74A off eBay. It wasn't this one. I bought this 3-74A off an old Texas dealer in the days before eBay got big. A friend identified it as having belonged to Ted Craige, long before the recent sale of his collection. A photograph of Craige's coin had been circulating for years, but no one knew where the actual coin was. It's currently about third in the condition census. So, if you found one that looks like this for $7, you did very well. I bought a decent 7-74A for not much more than that recently. I'm always on the lookout for a 9-76B, but haven't found a nice one for less than a fortune.

Yes, I did well on the 3-74A, and from what I could tell the 7-74A tends to do a little better. I don't pay much attention, but maybe the 3-74A has dropped to a 5+ and the 7-74A still a solid 6.

Maybe a year and a half back a dealer friend who I used to talk to often on the West coast bought a beautiful 9-76B that he expected to move fast and for a great profit.