Dateless Buffalo Nickels... Thoughts, ideas, experiments...

[AugustMoose87]

So, to get this out of the way, I know that you ARE NOT supposed to clean/alter coins, it ruins the value, etc, etc, etc.

That being said, dateless buffalos... as I understand it, they are generally worth around $0.15. Now, as someone who is more interested in filling a folder than preserving the value of a $0.15 coin, I am interested in working to restore some of the dateless buffalos the wife and I find. In doing some Googling, I came across this guys web site... http://buffaloreincarnations.com/about/restoration.php and I have to say his work is pretty impressive. I certainly understand why he doesn't want to share his method with the world, but I don't have the $25k he is asking to take over his business. So, I am trying to do some brain storming and experimenting to see if I can get results even close to his. You read his site, and he mentions that he uses 3 cleaning treatments - 1 soap and water, 2 chemical. I would think the soap and water would be just a general cleaning solution used before and after other treatments. Looking at the picture he has of the chemical - you can see Nail Polish Remover (acetone most likely) and ammonia. I have also heard of ferric chloride (Nic-a-Date), hydrochloric acid (muriatic acid), and I have tried acetic acid (vinegar) with some success.

So, if anyone has experience or thoughts with these or other chemicals/techniques, PLEASE speak up. In the mean, I am going to work on gathering some chemicals and some worn Jefferson's to experiment on. I will do the before and after pics as well as methods on here as I go.

 

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[Henry2]

I use nic-a-date myself but you can tell it is a restored date, but if you are just filling in holes in a folder go for it. In fact I used to love buying dateless buffs just for the fun of it to see what pops up.

 

[Beachkid23]

I use nic-a-date myself but you can tell it is a restored date, but if you are just filling in holes in a folder go for it. In fact I used to love buying dateless buffs just for the fun of it to see what pops up.

I tried buying some this weekend. The lady had probably 300 of them and maybe 30 of them have dates on them. I offered her $80 for 11 silver 1964 1/2 dollars and the buffalo nickels. She said no way. She was only going to take $150 and that was it. Out of those nickels there were probably 25 that had dates and they were all 1937. So needless to say I gave her my number if she changes her mind she can call me back but 150 Dollars Was Way too much I thought. She said that she showed them to another guy and he offered $40 for everything and she said she called him a crook and told him to leave her yard sale. This was after I already bought some coins from her. She thought the other ones were priceless I guess!

 

[AugustMoose87]

So I am also going to use this as kind of a log as I work, so I will have one spot I can go back to... Looks like Ferric Chloride (Nic-a-Date) is a dark colored fluid, also used for etching PCB boards. My guess is that is one of the dark colored chemicals pictured, and the chemical treatment used to do an initial assessment - make the date and mint mark visible, then decided if a full restoration is worth while.

 

[enamel7]

My experience with nic-a-date is as soon as you see the date clearly put it under cold running water and rub the area with your thumb briskly. They come out looking more normal than when it has the blob area from the acid.

 

[Slingshot]

Check out my article in the Research/Techniques forum under Restoration Projects titled - Homebrew nickel dateback acid. Cheers!!

 

[AugustMoose87]

Thanks Slingshot, I actually just found that article. I gave that formula a shot a few days back and got some dates (1919,1918, and 1913). I only left them in long enough to see the dates, but it sounds like maybe I should have left them in a little longer to get the results I was looking for.

 

[zach attack]

When I date restored my buffalo nickels I used vinegar mixed with hydrogen peroxide. Results were good.

 

[Joe777Cool]

I use a fine tip paint brush and paint nicadate on the date area. You can hardly tell the coin has been altered. No circle mark where the drop was and no staining.

 

[Nitric]

I think I have seen nickels that were treated like the link of your post. They are different than nic a date. The metal is actual raised, or removed around the date or coin. The coins will also have a pitting, acid look to them. It does bring them Back from the "dead" but not worth $25 grand for the knowledge. The coins are basically worthless after this is done, to anyone who knows what they are looking at. The only way I can describe the look is a sandblasted coin, that was caused by acid.

Maybe, what I saw was different, the description and pics in the article reminded me of it though. Any acid you use has to be neutralized, or it will keep attacking the metal over time.

To, add....You might have better luck in going outside the Buffalo nickel in researching how this is done, this has been done for years, on older nickels to give them more detail, so they can be sold at a higher price. Just hard to find any info. I have seen them after the fact, not really sure what is used or the process. Shield, V nickels,and nickel 3 cent, were done also.

also think the red you are seeing in the pictures is a reaction with the iron in the nickel. maybe?

Not to be "that guy".lol Be careful experimenting and fumes. The wrong combinations of acids and metals can hurt you fast. just saying, keep that in mind in research also. Heating up acids(concentrating or making of) might be a part of what is making this happen.

After looking into it a little on the web. I think it might not be as easy as it sounds. I think you cause a reaction then scrub it off,over and over until desired look. I think timing plays big into this. Just taking a quick guess.

 

[Emperor Findus Cladius]

Something else you might do with them is get a buffalo nickel folder and try to complete as much of a set as possible of nickels with dates restored with nic-a-date. I know of some folks who do this just for a challenge, mostly with nickels they get roll hunting. I have about a hundred slicks I am going to do that to when I get off my lazy butt. About all dateless buffalos otherwise are good for is spending for a nickel, or making bracelets, hatbands, buckles, etc. And as far as the latter goes, you could even uses the nic-a-date nickels, just have the reverse side up.

 

[Professor of Engineering]

Very interesting thread!

 

[AugustMoose87]

Ok, so I have been doing some research, and came across a great reference book on metals on Google Books, which included common etching agents for various metals. So I got the info on etching nickel and copper, and there were a bunch... 21 applicable etches for copper and 18 for nickel. I went through and cross referenced the two lists tonight so I now have a list of which ones are only listed as nickel, listed as both, and only copper.

Nickel Etching
2 Nitric Acid, Hydrochloric acid, glycerol
4 Nitric acid, acetic acid, acetone
6 Aqua regia, copper chloride
7 Nitric and hydrochloric acid in alcohol
8 Hydrochloric acid
11 Ferric chloride
15 Ammonium persulphate, potassium cyanide
17 Potassium cyanide, water, H2O2

Copper & Nickel
C 1&2, N 18 – Ammonium Hydroxide, H2O2 (Water)
C 4, N 14 – Ammonium persulphate
C 5, N 16 – Ammonium Hydroxide
C 6, N 9&10 – Hydrochloric acid, ferric chloride, water
C 11, N 13 – Sulphuric acid, potassium dichromate
C 12, N 1 – Nitric acid
C 13, N 12 – Sulphuric acid, H2O2
C 28, N 3&5 – Nitric acid, acetic acid, water

Copper Only
3 Ammonium hydroxide, water, Ammonium persulphate
7 Ferric chloride, hydrochloric acid in alcohol
8 Chromic acid
9 Chromic acid, hydrochloric acid
10 Chromic acid, nitric acid, water
14&15 Silver Nitrate
16 Ammonium hydroxide, ammonium oxalte
17 Ammonium hydroxide, potassium arsenate
18 Copper ammonium chloride, ammonium hydroxide
19 Ammonium hydroxide, potassium permanganate
20 Bromine water

The mixtures is bold are ones that specifically mention cupronickel. Tomorrow after work I am going to start researching each of the chemicals to help eliminate anything that is prohibitively difficult/expensive to get a hold of.

Update - Italic chemicals a easy and cheap to get a hold of, underlined are more difficult/expensive

 

[Nitric]

I don't know if muriatic might work too? Maybe, your looking to attack one metal over the other too.

 

[Joe777Cool]

Talk about reinventing the wheel! Nic a date was $10 at my coin shop, you can probably do 1000 nickels with it! Save yourselves the time and energy!!!

 

[AugustMoose87]

Muriatic acid is hydrochloric, so it is in my list.

And if no one ever re-invented the wheel, we'd still be using logs as "wheels". Besides, first, I don't just want to see the dates, I want to try and restore some of the detail like the guy on the website I posted does. And second, I enjoy this... I don't have the money to do any CRH at the moment, it is cold and snowy, so detecting and prospecting would be less enjoyable, but this is something I can work on inside, even when it is dark out. I know I'm something of an oddity, but math/science have always been something I've enjoyed. So when I get to fill a bunch of small containers with chemicals and see which ones do what i want to nickels, it kinda like being a kid with my first chemistry kit all over again.

 

[BigWaveDave]

OK my man, now that you laid it out like that, ya got me intrigued/interested in your results. Do us a solid and include before and after pics of your science projects.... and take your time!!!! a long, cold winter awaits you, so there is no rush. In the mean while, I will be hunting on an almost daily basis, as temp will be solid 80's until it warms up in April. HH!!

 

[AugustMoose87]

Ok, so I did some googling and basically split the list (on page 1) in to two - chemicals in italics area cheap and easy to get (like most hardware stores) and the chemicals that are underlined are expensive and/or difficult to get (of course with the internet, almost anything is obtainable).

Sadly, nitric acid (included in both formulas that mention cupronickel) is on the difficult to get list. However, I have at least one solution in each the nickel only, Copper/nickel and copper only categories. So now I'll work on getting the chemicals I need, and you can rest assured I will include before, and after photos as well as detailed methodologies.

 

[AugustMoose87]

Well, a financial crunch due to the way bills and paychecks lined up this month have stalled me getting new chemicals, but I was able to go ahead with what I had on hand - ammonia, water, and hydrogen peroxide. One mix called for straight ammonia, the other 5 parts ammonia, 5 parts water and 3 parts hydrogen peroxide. Let them soak for over 24 hours, and the results left a lot of be desired... I'm not even going to both posting the before and after pics I took, because aside from the shine, there isn't much difference. So while I think I may have found my final step to give nickels a nice smooth finish, it doesn't do squat for restoring worn detail. Decided I would up the ante and do about 60% ammonia and 40% hydrogen peroxide to see if that does any different. It is soaking now, so hopefully results to come in the morning...

 

[AugustMoose87]

So after a 24 hr soak in undiluted ammonia and hydrogen peroxide, I'm still hot seeing what I'm looking for... I believe I can see SOME detail re-emerging, but it is minimal. Hopefully in a week or two I will have some extra cash so I can try and get some of the other chemicals.

I'm working on pics of the before and after...