1909 S Wheat Cent real or fake

[gunner45]

I found this while digging though some of my wheats, I was shocked to find it but something is telling me it's not real.
The weight is on but something just doesn't look right.
Any idea or thoughts?
Thanks

 

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[digging440yrs]

Looks like it was struck off center, with the right side of the obverse having a wider rim--other than that

 

[smokeythecat]

Looks ok to me.

 

[kingskid1611]

Looks fine to me just not the VDB......

 

[Dozer D]

Very nice coin, I would grade it near ExtFine. Too bad not a VDB = BIG BUCKS. Congrats

 

[BigWaveDave]

Hmmmm......
Ok, chances are it's real....
But the S is a little wonky, and the bottom of the wheat stalks, the stems, look to be off a little....
I'm also deep into a case of Stella's....
Get it graded....that'll shut me up.

 

[gunner45]

Wish it was a VDB but I'm satisfied with what I have. Not sure why but it just seemed off a little.

 

[franklin]

Don't waste your time. It is a fake. The "9's" are not open at the top and are not hooked on the ends. They got the "1's" right but the "9's" are all wrong.

 

[enamel7]

Looks casted to me.

 

[enamel7]

And Dozer, no way that coin would grade EF.

 

[huntsman53]

The coin is a little rough from being somewhat circulated and banged around with other coins but appears to be genuine to me! It is very hard to fake the slight railroad rim (12:00 to 4:30) and the lamination problem on the rim (10:30 to about 12:00). Yes, the Mint mark is a little screwy as it has taken some hits and one reason it looks weird, is that it may be a "S" or Horizontal "S" Variety.


Frank

 

[port ewen ace]

still worth 3 to 5 bucks, with its' "character" & all

 

[gunner45]

Lots of mixed opinions, honestly I can't see it being casted but maybe a lamination issue going on.

 

[cudamark]

Looks genuine to me. Probably late obverse die state and it had a short, but, rough life in circulation!

 

[EastCoastmetal]

Doesn't look right to me, but that doesn't mean its a fake. But..


Counterfeit 1909-S VDB Lincoln Cent:

"Probably "Number One on the Hit Parade", as far counterfeits in the Lincoln Cent series go. Commonly altered by adding a "S" mintmark to genuine P Mint VDB Cents, it has become more common to find die struck outright phonies of this key date. The coin shown was purchased unknowingly by a collector, possibly online. This appears to be struck from dies made from the direct transfer or spark erosion process, and is a little older type of counterfeit. The overall detail looks close to "right", but a closer inspection and some general knowledge of what a genuine coin SHOULD look like reveals the fakery.


First and foremost, the Mintmark is COMPLETELY wrong, being too large and bulky-looking, the result of being cut by hand into the die, This suggests that the original coin used was a P Mint VDB. Collectors should learn the proper diagnostics for a genuine San Francisco Mint mintmark punch of the 1908-1914 date era - for this, perhaps no better resource is available to the average person that to purchase (or borrow) a copy of the PCGS "Coin Grading and Counterfeit Detection Guide©", now published as one of the "Official© Guide" series.


Second, a basic knowledge of coin metalurgy is valuable here - this item appears to have been struck from a near pure Copper alloy, rather than the French Bronze used in 1909 (95% Copper, 5% Tin and Zinc). Genuine 1909-S VDB Cents tend to be more Golden Brown than "Red" when original Uncirculated - this item is more of a flat orangy-red unlike any genuine Lincoln Cent pre-1982. It shows some finger contact - whether this was due to sloppyness on the part of the "minter", or whether this was done intentionally to help convince potential buyers that the coin was real, I can't say.

Thirdly, looking at the overall features of this item, it just does not pass the "smell test". The rims, especially on the Obverse are too "fat" and rounded compared to the genuine coin. Also, when a counterfeit die is made by a process that uses a real coin as a model to transfer detail, whether by the spark-erosion process, direct transfer or producing a casting, minor marks and defects on the real coin are transfered to the counterfeit die. Additionally, fine details tend to be lost, become softer and more "out of focus" and odd bumps tend to show up where they should not on the "coin" produced from one of these dies. Look at the area just inside the rim of either side - there is a definite "mushy" look to the area where the fields blend into the rim. While not absolutely diagnostic, as the 1909 issue was the first year of the Lincoln Cent struck, they tend to be well made as the Master Hub was fresh, so the rims tend to be more square.

Unfortunately, we have moved into a computer-designed, laser-guided machine tool driven era, where the tools available to the counterfeiter are almost as good as those used my the U.S. Mint - and probably better than those used a century ago. Today's die-struck counterfeit 1909-S VDB is becoming much "better' at mimicing the original, genuine item. I hestitate to absolutely recommend purchasing only certified examples, but working with a knowlegeable, honest dealer with an iron-clad return policy is a must, as is adding to your own knowledge as much as possible in order to protect yourself further. One way to start is to never purchase ANY coin from anyone from China period.



Pictures at this site.


Non Genuine Coins, Meant to Fool the Collector

 

[EastCoastmetal]

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[jerseyben]

This one is a tough one... My initial reaction is to call this genuine. My hesitation is with the font. It looks off to me, but that could just be due to the ugly wear pattern and hits that this coin has all over. E PLURIBUS UNUM looks especially wonky to me. That mint mark looks awfully blurry too. On the other hand, all of the details on this coin are sharply struck. This is not a cast coin, as the details are just too crisp/clear. Most often, counterfeits have a very flat appearance overall with high/low spots. This coin is sharp all around. This coin also has honest wear. I would find it very unusual for a counterfeit coin of this era to have been circulated to this extent (although it is not impossible). If I were to encounter this coin in the wild, I would probably buy it as genuine if the price was good enough. Even as a genuine coin, it is still not a great example. It is kind of ugly and certainly that effects its value.

 

[cudamark]

The "IIBERTY" and partially clogged B indicate to me a typical late die state and not likely to be reproduced in a counterfeit.

 

[wagbert]

The Chinese copies seem to have the slight "railroad rim" too. They are selling some other good dates too, like the 14-D cent. All you have to do is give them your credit card number. Sounds like an deal !! (Hee-Hee!)
I just checked the 1909-S Cents for sale on ebay, and I didn't see any with a railroad rim. It is still possible that some have that characteristic of course. I did see one 09-S from a Florida seller that has a large open "S" like
the example for counterfeit coins that was recently posted.

 

[wagbert]

The previous post was also by ""Eastcoastmetal". This is a very good and helpful site, as was the ad from the Chinese manufacturer. I believe they make copies of the scarce German East Africa 5 Heller too. There are several Australian sellers who used to offer multiples of the 1908-J 5 Heller at slightly reduced catalog prices. I quit looking for a high grade example after I decided most of the coins offered were fakes.
Good Luck everybody !