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  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by A2coins View Post
    I find earings alot 14k where it marked on the post people miss that alot.
    Its amazing how small they can stamp 14k
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  2. #62

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    Quote Originally Posted by Idahodutch View Post
    That is quite the outpouring. As much as you are saying invest invest . . It sounds like you are struggling to continue to hold your views. Truth is truth. Gold and silver is money. Saving and investing are not the same thing. The OP just wanted to know a little bit about getting some gold or silver. And you sound like he should be should be listenig to you instead. No offence intended.
    Sincerely, Idahodutch
    I disagree with your assessment of his well written comments. It's an outpouring to his fellow CRHing friends to consider investing. Honestly, if you believe we will soon face Armageddon or some other earth resetting event, then keep your money. That makes sense. I get it and it's a concern of mine, though I don't believe it will help most of the people saving it because you can't carry it and it won't feed you or protect you in the immediate aftermath. But that's a whole notha subject.

    Bottom line...comparing stocks to a ponzi scheme just doesn't make sense. You're purchasing a piece of a company. If you want to grow wealth, other than by the sweat of your brow, you'll need to invest. Precious metals aren't really investments. Simple as that.
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  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by Idahodutch View Post
    That is quite the outpouring. As much as you are saying invest invest . . It sounds like you are struggling to continue to hold your views. Truth is truth. Gold and silver is money. Saving and investing are not the same thing. The OP just wanted to know a little bit about getting some gold or silver. And you sound like he should be should be listenig to you instead. No offence intended.
    Sincerely, Idahodutch
    You know that and so do I. Hard fact is, gold and silver were once money. Today they are traded as commodity.
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  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by fistfulladirt View Post
    You know that and so do I. Hard fact is, gold and silver were once money. Today they are traded as commodity.
    Fistfull,
    I am not sure how deep folks want to dive in here, but bottom line, it seems like society (maybe it's just Western society), has been successful in getting the general public to a place where calling things OTHER than what they are really called is accepted. This has been almost like a plague. How about 20 some years ago, we had a very powerful person give for a defense, "It depends what the definition of IS is" . Once the normal boundaries are no longer sacred, good becomes bad and bad becomes good. "Anything goes" seems to be the push.
    A rose by any other name . . . . is still a rose.
    So in light of that, you're statement of what you consider to be fact, is really your opinion, is it not? (along with many other folk too). Just because people trade something, doesn't change what it is. I don't think

    I wouldn't be surprised if after aligning all of our definitions, that we would not be that far apart.
    Idaho Dutch

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by Owassokie View Post
    I disagree with your assessment of his well written comments. It's an outpouring to his fellow CRHing friends to consider investing. Honestly, if you believe we will soon face Armageddon or some other earth resetting event, then keep your money. That makes sense. I get it and it's a concern of mine, though I don't believe it will help most of the people saving it because you can't carry it and it won't feed you or protect you in the immediate aftermath. But that's a whole notha subject.

    Bottom line...comparing stocks to a ponzi scheme just doesn't make sense. You're purchasing a piece of a company. If you want to grow wealth, other than by the sweat of your brow, you'll need to invest. Precious metals aren't really investments. Simple as that.
    Owassokie,
    Try substituting the word "Gambling" for the 3 places in your statement.
    Sounds different doesn't it? It is a sign that you may be in danger of being programmed to think how someone else wants.
    Sincerely,
    Idahodutch

  6. #66
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    Tommy

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    The Gods of Finance have spoke Thats why they dont own PM or Search for them. Really!!!!!!

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  7. #67
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    Well just a little !!!!lol

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  8. #68

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    Quote Originally Posted by Owassokie View Post
    I disagree with your assessment of his well written comments. It's an outpouring to his fellow CRHing friends to consider investing. Honestly, if you believe we will soon face Armageddon or some other earth resetting event, then keep your money. That makes sense. I get it and it's a concern of mine, though I don't believe it will help most of the people saving it because you can't carry it and it won't feed you or protect you in the immediate aftermath. But that's a whole notha subject.

    Bottom line...comparing stocks to a ponzi scheme just doesn't make sense. You're purchasing a piece of a company. If you want to grow wealth, other than by the sweat of your brow, you'll need to invest. Precious metals aren't really investments. Simple as that.
    Ponzi scheme isn't an accurate metaphor but similar in concept. As long as everybody is piling on the money in the stock market it stands to rise. I remember the 2008 crash well.....everybody was dumping. My brother a Mellon graduate has made a lot of money day trading by shorting, playing the derivative markets etc, but he has the money to lose......I don't so I play things more conservatively. I have had lots of mutual funds over the years.....some have tanked when the fund managers or policies have changed. There is probably some fudging of the numbers in their total return figures as in a lot of accounting practices. So invest in what has been working for you and what you have the stomach for. My company has moved from Fidelity to Hewitt/Allight and the history of Hewitt is ripe with problems.....I don't know all the details but wish my Electronics company had stayed with Fidelity Investments. What scares me the most about this economy is the amount of debt at the Government level, corporate and consumer....surprised the student loan debt bubble hasn't popped yet. I listen to the Peter Schiff gold report on You Tube.....which details problems in the economy. It is slanted to the gold investor but still a good report nevertheless.

  9. #69

    Jun 2012
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    Quote Originally Posted by Idahodutch View Post
    Owassokie,
    Try substituting the word "Gambling" for the 3 places in your statement.
    Sounds different doesn't it? It is a sign that you may be in danger of being programmed to think how someone else wants.
    Sincerely,
    Idahodutch
    While that explains your position it's simply not true when you look at the stock market as a whole. You can call it gambling in the short term and there are plenty of stocks that are a gamble, if you want to chase those types of stocks ie...penny stocks. But the market, as a whole, have proven over and over again to not be a gamble over the long term . To me, the big difference between the stock market and gambling is that the market doesn't REQUIRE a loser. If you buy a lottery ticket, they are pooling the money from many gamblers and giving it to a few gamblers (and the government). With stocks, you are basically buying a portion of a company. In my case, a portion of thousands of companies. This doesn't require a loser.

    OO
    Megalodon likes this.

  10. #70

    Jun 2012
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    Quote Originally Posted by Timecop67 View Post
    Ponzi scheme isn't an accurate metaphor but similar in concept. As long as everybody is piling on the money in the stock market it stands to rise. I remember the 2008 crash well.....everybody was dumping. My brother a Mellon graduate has made a lot of money day trading by shorting, playing the derivative markets etc, but he has the money to lose......I don't so I play things more conservatively. I have had lots of mutual funds over the years.....some have tanked when the fund managers or policies have changed. There is probably some fudging of the numbers in their total return figures as in a lot of accounting practices. So invest in what has been working for you and what you have the stomach for. My company has moved from Fidelity to Hewitt/Allight and the history of Hewitt is ripe with problems.....I don't know all the details but wish my Electronics company had stayed with Fidelity Investments. What scares me the most about this economy is the amount of debt at the Government level, corporate and consumer....surprised the student loan debt bubble hasn't popped yet. I listen to the Peter Schiff gold report on You Tube.....which details problems in the economy. It is slanted to the gold investor but still a good report nevertheless.
    I understand that people have lost money in the market, especially if they they play around with trying to beat the market. I'll be honest, I've lost money in the stock market. I like to play around with stock options some times and I have ZERO business doing so. It's a gamble. We can look at several crashes and create scenarios of potentially losing money over certain limited periods of time. What I think people would find difficult is creating a realistic picture of a person that invests in a broad based ETF, consistently over a work life of say 40 years, where they don't try to time the market...they just consistently invest and leave it alone. Try to find a scenario where that person loses money, (even adjusted for inflation). I don't think it exists. What you'll find is this scenario proves fruitful for just about any 40 year period of the stock market.

    As for day trading....I think it's gambling for most people. I have some friends that do this and to be honest...I see some similar behaviors to my casino friends. They remember the big wins but somehow forget about the number of small losses or how much they've 'invested' to begin with. That said, I'm not saying all day trading is bad or everyone is a loser. I'm saying you either need to have information TRULY not available to the masses or a level of intelligence that surpasses 99% of the masses. I don't buy into any of the 'systems' used by most day traders.

    Hate to hear they moved you away from Fidelity. I'm not familiar with Hewitt/Allight. I hope they aren't eating up all your earnings with fees and loads.

    OO
    Megalodon and Timecop67 like this.

  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by Owassokie View Post
    While that explains your position it's simply not true when you look at the stock market as a whole. You can call it gambling in the short term and there are plenty of stocks that are a gamble, if you want to chase those types of stocks ie...penny stocks. But the market, as a whole, have proven over and over again to not be a gamble over the long term . To me, the big difference between the stock market and gambling is that the market doesn't REQUIRE a loser. If you buy a lottery ticket, they are pooling the money from many gamblers and giving it to a few gamblers (and the government). With stocks, you are basically buying a portion of a company. In my case, a portion of thousands of companies. This doesn't require a loser.

    OO
    That is a good explanation of how real investing differs from gambling. Gambling with lottery tickets, or worse, scratch-offs that continue to be sold in vending machines after the winners have already won, is usually a random chance of a very low probability event. Good research does not increase those terrible odds. When picking individual securities, understanding what makes one stock a better value than another, is useful. Research is often rewarded. And there are times when an investor can minimize risk as one gets older and has less time left for more volatile securities. Going to high-quality blue chip funds or dividend funds or individual stocks is one way to reduce risk, or volatility, at the possible loss of the very large gains we see in more volatile funds like emerging markets or science & technology funds.

    A long-term view over several decades is the secret and few want to hear that. Decades of compounding the reinvested dividends and capital gains builds wealth. I hear the excuses that the "market is too high" - and there is some merit to that, on a P/E perspective. But what is the alternative? In the mid 1980's, we had better alternatives with high rate CDs from S&Ls that have long since disappeared. I myself had a 1 year CD that paid 19.9%. That federally insured return was a reasonable alternative to stocks back then. But today, the best CD rate I can get is 2.15%, and that is fully taxable as ordinary income, the net of which may not exceed the rate of inflation. So my alternative, especially at my age, is to choose some high rated dividend stocks - some of which have raised dividends every year for decades. In addition, those qualified dividends receive preferential tax treatment and still appreciate in value.
    Last edited by Megalodon; Jan 20, 2020 at 06:22 PM.
    xr7ator and Owassokie like this.
    "Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passions, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence." - John Adams

  12. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by Owassokie View Post
    I understand that people have lost money in the market, especially if they they play around with trying to beat the market. I'll be honest, I've lost money in the stock market. I like to play around with stock options some times and I have ZERO business doing so. It's a gamble. We can look at several crashes and create scenarios of potentially losing money over certain limited periods of time. What I think people would find difficult is creating a realistic picture of a person that invests in a broad based ETF, consistently over a work life of say 40 years, where they don't try to time the market...they just consistently invest and leave it alone. Try to find a scenario where that person loses money, (even adjusted for inflation). I don't think it exists. What you'll find is this scenario proves fruitful for just about any 40 year period of the stock market.

    As for day trading....I think it's gambling for most people. I have some friends that do this and to be honest...I see some similar behaviors to my casino friends. They remember the big wins but somehow forget about the number of small losses or how much they've 'invested' to begin with. That said, I'm not saying all day trading is bad or everyone is a loser. I'm saying you either need to have information TRULY not available to the masses or a level of intelligence that surpasses 99% of the masses. I don't buy into any of the 'systems' used by most day traders.

    Hate to hear they moved you away from Fidelity. I'm not familiar with Hewitt/Allight. I hope they aren't eating up all your earnings with fees and loads.

    OO
    Excellent post. There is some investor psychology research showing investors tend to follow the crowd and buy when the market is high and sell when the market is low - a good recipe for losing money in the market. My own largest purchases were made in late October 1987 when panic gripped the market and spring 2009 after the housing "crisis". In both cases, the market became grossly oversold and an investor who was capable of understanding value and pricing v risk could, as I did, scoop up bargains. To do this, its best to keep a watch list of stocks that interest you and be prepared to take advantage of obvious buying opportunities. But don't sit entirely on the sideline either - max out IRA and/or 401K contributions in carefully selected low-cost funds that make sense for your age and comfort level of risk aversion. Even if those funds don't appreciate as quickly as you wish, the tax advantages are compelling by themselves.
    Owassokie likes this.
    "Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passions, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence." - John Adams

  13. #73

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    Quote Originally Posted by Megalodon View Post
    That is a good explanation of how real investing differs from gambling. Gambling with lottery tickets, or worse, scratch-offs that continue to be sold in vending machines after the winners have already won, is usually a random chance of a very low probability event. Good research does not increase those terrible odds. When picking individual securities, understanding what makes one stock a better value than another, is useful. Research is often rewarded. And there are times when an investor can minimize risk as one gets older and has less time left for more volatile securities. Going to high-quality blue chip funds or dividend funds or individual stocks is one way to reduce risk, or volatility, at the possible loss of the very large gains we see in more volatile funds like emerging markets or science & technology funds.

    A long-term view over several decades is the secret and few want to hear that. Decades of compounding the reinvested dividends and capital gains builds wealth. I hear the excuses that the "market is too high" - and there is some merit to that, on a P/E perspective. But what is the alternative? In the mid 1980's, we had better alternatives with high rate CDs from S&Ls that have long since disappeared. I myself had a 1 year CD that paid 19.9%. That federally insured return was a reasonable alternative to stocks back then. But today, the best CD rate I can get is 2.15%, and that is fully taxable as ordinary income, the net of which may not exceed the rate of inflation. So my alternative, especially at my age, is to choose some high rated dividend stocks - some of which have raised dividends every year for decades. In addition, those qualified dividends receive preferential tax treatment and still appreciate in value.
    Minimizing Risk is key even in Gambling. I only play the Holiday raffle at our State lottery since the odds are at 1 in 200 thousand.....for the million dollar prize but this raffle has lots of smaller wins that are possible. So the 20$ entry fee is worth it. If I were play the stock mutual Funds right now it would be in value stocks or a focus on dividends but I see a drop in the NAV when the market finally corrects itself.....which will probably be after the election because right now stocks are propped up by the Fed and Trump. Short term Municipal bonds may be good right now. Do I ever see interest rates ever going up again.....have my doubts since the global rates are going to negative territory due to every country getting into debt trouble. Can you get rates above 2.15% at banks?.....one can but have to shop around.....seems some Credit Unions are above the 2.5% mark for 5 year CDs and best to ladder your account. Right now getting about 3% for my CDs but going to renew soon to a little lower. Finally just read a report about BitCoin.....guess it stands to rise further in the years to come and from the analysis I read may actually be a good buy but the report also stated may not be wise to go over the 1% of your total assets. It is all about diversification in your portfolio.
    Mackaydon and A2coins like this.

  14. #74
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    "It is all about diversification in your portfolio."
    So true.
    Don..
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  15. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mackaydon View Post
    "It is all about diversification in your portfolio."
    So true.
    Don..
    Don you still waiting for $10 silver? Me too.
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