Montezumas Treasure: Colorado Leads

[Randy Bradford]

Montezuma's Treasure: Colorado Leads

As part of my ongoing research into the legends of Montezuma’s Treasure in the SW US, I wanted to do a bit of state specific focus, in this case, Colorado. I’d be curious to talk to folks on or off Treasurenet about stories they’ve heard, been told, read about, etc at part of a broader research effort into Montezuma’s story. I’ve managed to pin down a few specific references, though I suspect there are more. More importantly, I’m hoping to get more details about these specific areas that would lend any credibility to these stories or new avenues for research and exploration on my part. Thus far, I have uncovered the following broad leads:

Dove Creek, Dolores Co: “There are some strange symbols carved into the walls of a cave near Dove Creek. Several people have stated their belief these relate to one of the incredible caches of Montezuma, and tat the markings indicate the burial to be somewhere in the Four Corners area. (Carson)”

McElmo Creek, Montezuma County: “It is said that one of Montezuma’s great caches, large amounts of gold and silver, is hidden within Montezuma County near McElmo Creek. Maybe so, maybe not. Known this, if parts of his treasure are buried wherever people say they are, you have half a dozen spots to search just here in Colorado. (Carson)”

St. Charles River, Pueblo Co: “There is a tale of an Aztec cache located somewhere along the St. Charles River. (Carson)”

Spanish Peaks Antonio, Conejos Co: “A possible search site for one of the Aztec chief Montezuma’s huge caches is in the area around Antonio. (Carson)”

Guinore W of Durango, Montezuma Co

Primary source materials (at this time) for these leads comes from some of the vaguest sources possible: Carson’s “A Guide to Treasure in Colorado.” These are all extremely brief accounts with no documentation or suggestion for original source materials that would aid in further research. In his defense, Carson did include a rather impressive bibliography but not a single citation in the text connecting a story to any particular bibliographic content.

I could be wrong, but the last citation may have come from the 5000 Treasures of the World CD. It doesn’t work with my current operating system so I can’t confirm. It didn’t come from Carson, Probert’s bibliography or Robert Marx’s “Buried Treasure of the United States. There is a chance it came from one of Thomas Penfield’s books as well, but I don’t own those either ( “Directory of Buried or Sunken Treasures and Lost Mines of the United States” or "Buried Treasure in the United States and Where to Find It." Thomas Terry’s atlas series is a possibility to but I also do not have access to these so unless I got it in the past (which is possible) it’s something I cannot confirm.

This thread will be cross posted at both the Colorado state forum and on Aztec treasures in the Treasure Legends forum. Thanks in advance for your assistance. I welcome insights and feedback, either on this thread or directly at: [email protected]

 

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[oldnugget]

montezuma died broke.... he spent his fortune as a land developer and hi rise builder... couldnt sell a one of them...lol

Montezuma Castle National Monument (U.S. National Park Service)

 

[Randy Bradford]

I'd actually really love some feedback about the Dove Creek site. I've spoken to a number of people over the years who were from the area but knew nothing about it. Sounds like a fabrication but it would be great to talk to someone that knew otherwise.

 

[RGINN]

I have heard references to the Dove Creek markings but haven't seen any pics of them. My question is why would they take 'Montezuma's Treasure' this far north? Just too much work involved in that.

 

[Randy Bradford]

Well...the brief answer would be that logic would dictate they wouldn't. However, people of faith are often driven to do incredible things. I can't imagine pulling all my belongings in a hand cart from Illinois to Utah but thousands of Mormons did it in the 1840s. If the stories have any credence, the Aztec were moving things they treasures (or feared to keep) to their homeland, Aztlan. Whether that's in Mexico, Texas, Utah or any one of a number of other places is certainly open for debate. There's also the question of what they moved, obviously the smaller the load the more feasible the movement, though no less illogical. ind Montezuma's treasure is reputed to be in nearly every SW state, including Colorado.

That being said, pictures or some other confirmation of the symbols at Dove Creek would be a huge thing, if you ever hear of anyone with some information about them I'd be enormously grateful. I also realize that my gratitude and five bucks would get you coffee at Starbucks...

 

[colorado_vet]

In my humble opinion,i am very inexperienced in treasure hunting, i could see how they would travel very far to get away from the Conquistitors (sic). If they had many slaves or even many Aztecs they could move massive amounts of treasure . They truley were in fear of being followed and would not stop on the edge of danger but would try to move far past it. I guess what i am trying to say is i would not rule an area out simply from being very far.

 

[RGINN]

The Mormon comparison doesn't really relate. Plus it is verifiably documented, unlike an Aztec journey to the SW US. I think any Aztec incursion farther north would have been noticed and challenged. And if not challenged at least noted in oral tradition. I can't feature the Comanches not being aware of or sitting idly by while a bunch of foreigners traipsed across territory they controlled. Same with the Apache or Ute. A few times it was, but for the most part through history this part of the country wasn't a barren unoccupied wasteland. Still, stories come from somewhere, so it pays to keep an open mind. I've examined lots of petroglyphs around the 4 corners area and most are just what you would expect. But a few will catch your eye as just out of the ordinary. I have heard there is a place in Utah where they believe the markings are related to Montezuma's treasure, but I haven't been there. I've heard a couple of references to an Aztec Sun God being hidden in southwest Oklahoma, but not enough that we could go out huntin tomorrow.

 

[Randy Bradford]

The Mormon comparison doesn't really relate. Plus it is verifiably documented, unlike an Aztec journey to the SW US. I think any Aztec incursion farther north would have been noticed and challenged. And if not challenged at least noted in oral tradition. I can't feature the Comanches not being aware of or sitting idly by while a bunch of foreigners traipsed across territory they controlled. Same with the Apache or Ute. A few times it was, but for the most part through history this part of the country wasn't a barren unoccupied wasteland. Still, stories come from somewhere, so it pays to keep an open mind. I've examined lots of petroglyphs around the 4 corners area and most are just what you would expect. But a few will catch your eye as just out of the ordinary. I have heard there is a place in Utah where they believe the markings are related to Montezuma's treasure, but I haven't been there. I've heard a couple of references to an Aztec Sun God being hidden in southwest Oklahoma, but not enough that we could go out huntin tomorrow.

The Mormon comparison absolutely relates. The point was to underscore that few fully grasp much less appreciate the role in faith in behavior. With the Aztecs we are denied a full grasp of what their faith was, what it meant to them, or to what lengths they might be willing to go to execute any sort of behavior with a spiritual benefit or belief driving it forward. It's an aspect that cannot be overlooked or under estimated, even if it cannot be fully quantified or proved. Your question was, WHY would they move it that far North, not whether or not we can prove it was.

I do agree that the lack of oral tradition is troubling, for me it may not be a question of it existing but merely my own inability to locate it. I fully admit that having one or two acounts of the Aztec treasure party would certainly be exciting. Keep in mind, the Aztecs had easily verified trade networks as far north as central Arizona. A smaller party might not have been worth mentioning in oral tradition.

A larger party, particularly one as large as has been reported (2,000 warriors) would not be opposed, though would have certainly gained enough attention to be mentioned in oral tradition.

I might share the panel I think is associted with the Aztecs in Utah, it's actually just over the border on the Arizona side.

Much like oral tradition, finding ANY support for the existence of the panel in the Dove Creek cave would be hugely significant to my work.

 

[RGINN]

Good points. I won't even compare the Mormon migration, but I can understand why Aztecs might possibly be motivated to move that far. I believe the trade network in America BC was more extensive and vaster than what our school history books told us. So maybe Aztecas were already familiar with the American southwest. (And American southeast, too) I have been tryin to dig up some kind of pic of Dove Creek petroglyphs. I was pretty sure one was out there, and I had seen it before, but it's proving very elusive so now I'm not so sure. Maybe I'll have to run down there and get some pics myself sometime. Here's another interesting angle. I grew up in SW Oklahoma and knew many Comanche tribal members. It's pretty much accepted that they originally migrated to the southern plains from the north. However, I was talking with one Comanche guy about this and he told me that wasn't true. His people came from the south and were descended directly from the Aztecs. He was very adamant about that. I didn't discount it, but thought it more likely that in the distant past some Aztec people wound up in a land far north, and were then adopted and integrated into the Comanche Nation. I don't know how you would go about verifying that, but kind of an interesting side note to the Montezuma treasure stories.

 

[lastleg]

I would take offense, however slightly, of a comparison of the Morman retreat from a hostile civilization on
the basis of "faith" and use as a pivot point in the faulty legend of Montezuma or Cities of Gold or Nazis in
Arizona or spacemen in New Mexico. I feel this is transferring subjectivity into the realm of objectivity.

 

[RGINN]

That's why I didn't accept that Mormon reference lastleg, however it's not the main point of the post and he was usin it only as an illustration to back up another point he was makin, so I understand what he was tryin to point out. Randy Bradford, I was geared up to head down to Dove Creek, CO last week. I do not know the location of that cave, but it appears most of that area is private property. We have members on here from down around that area so maybe they'll respond and enlighten us.

 

[Randy Bradford]

That'd be great RGINN. Seems to me there was some talk of a cave on the edge of town near a creek. Mostly though it's a small reference in an obscure book with little hope at all having any grain of reality. I would also point out to everyone that I am myself LDS so no offense was intended with the reference to the hand cart company. Simply illustrating that the Saints were willing to go to significant extremes to preserve their way of life and religious traditions. I bring this up largely because it's an act of faith and sacrifice I think few would be willing to commit to in this day and age. In this respect, I think it's unwise to assume the Aztecs weren't willing to go to equally significant lengths to accomplish their own spiritual and traditional preservation. The concept stands though the reality and feasibility of such an event are certainly open to discussion, and I certainly invite that.

 

[: Michael-Robert.]

My suggestion would be to also start a separate post for Dave Creek, Dolores. People who research or look for things in their area usually look for areas then names of treasures. Good luck on your researxh.



CO

As part of my ongoing research into the legends of Montezuma’s Treasure in the SW US, I wanted to do a bit of state specific focus, in this case, Colorado. I’d be curious to talk to folks on or off Treasurenet about stories they’ve heard, been told, read about, etc at part of a broader research effort into Montezuma’s story. I’ve managed to pin down a few specific references, though I suspect there are more. More importantly, I’m hoping to get more details about these specific areas that would lend any credibility to these stories or new avenues for research and exploration on my part. Thus far, I have uncovered the following broad leads:

Dove Creek, Dolores Co: “There are some strange symbols carved into the walls of a cave near Dove Creek. Several people have stated their belief these relate to one of the incredible caches of Montezuma, and tat the markings indicate the burial to be somewhere in the Four Corners area. (Carson)”

McElmo Creek, Montezuma County: “It is said that one of Montezuma’s great caches, large amounts of gold and silver, is hidden within Montezuma County near McElmo Creek. Maybe so, maybe not. Known this, if parts of his treasure are buried wherever people say they are, you have half a dozen spots to search just here in Colorado. (Carson)”

St. Charles River, Pueblo Co: “There is a tale of an Aztec cache located somewhere along the St. Charles River. (Carson)”

Spanish Peaks Antonio, Conejos Co: “A possible search site for one of the Aztec chief Montezuma’s huge caches is in the area around Antonio. (Carson)”

Guinore W of Durango, Montezuma Co

Primary source materials (at this time) for these leads comes from some of the vaguest sources possible: Carson’s “A Guide to Treasure in Colorado.” These are all extremely brief accounts with no documentation or suggestion for original source materials that would aid in further research. In his defense, Carson did include a rather impressive bibliography but not a single citation in the text connecting a story to any particular bibliographic content.

I could be wrong, but the last citation may have come from the 5000 Treasures of the World CD. It doesn’t work with my current operating system so I can’t confirm. It didn’t come from Carson, Probert’s bibliography or Robert Marx’s “Buried Treasure of the United States. There is a chance it came from one of Thomas Penfield’s books as well, but I don’t own those either ( “Directory of Buried or Sunken Treasures and Lost Mines of the United States” or "Buried Treasure in the United States and Where to Find It." Thomas Terry’s atlas series is a possibility to but I also do not have access to these so unless I got it in the past (which is possible) it’s something I cannot confirm.

This thread will be cross posted at both the Colorado state forum and on Aztec treasures in the Treasure Legends forum. Thanks in advance for your assistance. I welcome insights and feedback, either on this thread or directly at: [email protected]

 

[lastleg]

Randy

No offense to you personally but the "Saints" were driven out because of their polygamy and because
they espoused theories diametrically opposed to common order and decency. As for sacrifice unknown
today study the martyrdom of true saints who suffered death willingly rather than worship Ceasar or
other despots.
This has absolutely no relationship with pagan Aztecs who sacrificed babes to their "gods". Is this the
degree of "faith" that would send them packing to what is now the state of Colorado?
You think I'm picking on you but to advance unproven theories demands more than is being presented.
No one yet has made a reliable case for the exodus of Aztecs as a body into southwest Colorado, New
Mexico, Utah that I am aware of. If it were proven I'm sure it would have been disclosed for all the
world to see.

I have been reading Montezuma legends in treasure rags since the 1960's and while considering them
rubbish everyone is entitled to promote them on this forum.

 

[Randy Bradford]

lastleg, my point was clear and this was not meant to be a religious debate. I know enough about these forums that we already risk being shut down. It's beyond the scope of the original post and I don't feel the need to debate my use of parallels.

Many people do consider the idea that the Aztec sent their treasure this far north rubbish. I'm open to the possibility, feel there is adequate proof to suggest it was possible. Given that, all that remains is answering the question of WHY they would go to that much trouble. I've done my best to suggest at least one possibility that answers that question, it is by no means absolute, definitive, or stand alone. The idea that they would send so much so far seems silly to a modern generation. People have been driven to do far more for far less. THAT was my point.

If the case can be made that the Aztecs wanted to return their belongings to what they believed was their ancestral home, ample evidence has come out in the past few decades to support the conclusion that Utah might very well be Aztlan. More over, a cursory study reveals the Aztecs had trade networks well established clear up to the Grand Canyon region. One can deduce a level of familiarity that would suggest they might see the 4 corners region as a favorable and remote enough place to cache their sacred items. While not conclusive, I believe a number of clues in the Arizona Strip region suggest the Aztecs came that way. How many there were and how much they had with them is again, debatable.

thanks for the feedback...

 

[lastleg]

To your first point I made sure no rules were violated.

You can speculate all you wish. Have at it.

Thanks for your response.

 

[RGINN]

I'm sorry I disagreed with the Mormon reference. It was a bad choice on your part Randy Bradford to use that as an illustration, apparently. We all know the Aztecs were more aligned with the Jehovah's witnesses. And that's the end of the religious references on my part. Although I believe the Aztecs were familiar with and travelled to a large portion of the present southern US, why would they carry that heavy of a load that far? They were confronted by foreign conquistadors who didn't know the country, so about 5 miles out of town would have served the purpose. Just speculation, but treasure tales are about 102% speculation anyway, you think?

 

[Randy Bradford]

I'm sorry I disagreed with the Mormon reference. It was a bad choice on your part Randy Bradford to use that as an illustration, apparently. We all know the Aztecs were more aligned with the Jehovah's witnesses. And that's the end of the religious references on my part. Although I believe the Aztecs were familiar with and traveled to a large portion of the present southern US, why would they carry that heavy of a load that far? They were confronted by foreign conquistadors who didn't know the country, so about 5 miles out of town would have served the purpose. Just speculation, but treasure tales are about 102% speculation anyway, you think?

When I was graciously given permission to speculate, it occurred to me that most treasure stories were precisely that so I have no reason to feel ashamed.

Why would they carry the treasure this far North? If one thinks purely rationally, or logically, I doubt they would. I, however, they were thinking SPIRITUALLY, then they might have sufficient incentive AND motivation to do so. That's been my point all along. If the goal was to return the treasure to their "homeland," it strictly becomes less an issue of rationality, and more an issue of spirituality. THEN the question is, WHERE is their homeland. Would their belief and faith lead them to drag the treasure that far North to fulfill a spiritual quest or religious expectation? All things we know historically about their cosmology suggests that going to extremes to carry out the practice of their faith was par for the course. Things get sticky because not only is the treasure itself speculative, but the "Aztec homeland" is as well.

Keep in mind, I've never once said I believe the gold is in the US, I've only made an effort to demonstrate how the possibility isn't as far beyond the realm of possibility as many would suggest. This is a story where the "facts" are as difficult to find as the treasure itself.

FACT: The Aztecs had a vast amount of treasure in gold, silver, jade, turquoise, obsidian, precious stones, etc. This is well documented by the 1st hand accounts of the Spanish.
FACT: Cortes, when conquering the Aztec capitol found the amount of treasure substantially underwhelming compared to what he knew he had left behind 13 months prior when driven out of the Aztec capitol.
FACT: Aztecs leaders under duress of severe torture confessed the treasure had be returned to the Aztec homeland. This idea of "homeland" lends itself to enormous speculation because it could mean anything from where they were prior to settling present day Mexico City to a less objective, but no less real idea of Aztlan.
FACT: The Aztecs possessed a vast and well established trade network that would easily lend itself to use in transporting a treasure.
FACT: The Aztecs were a deeply zealous religiously minded people who were both willing and capable of going to extremes we can hardly fathom to carry out religious traditions. If we apply this fact to the notion of returning a treasure to their "homeland" it opens up an enormous number of possibilities.

 

[Randy Bradford]

My suggestion would be to also start a separate post for Dave Creek, Dolores. People who research or look for things in their area usually look for areas then names of treasures. Good luck on your researxh.



CO

Took your advice sir, thanks: http://www.treasurenet.com/forums/c...tec-montezuma-legend-seeking-local-input.html